Why would I choose not to accept the gospel?

[Misshalfway]

To lostnfound,

I understand your argument. I don't agree that the work was done after the cross. The Atonement was finished, yes, and the law was fulfilled. But Jesus continued to call and sustain prophets after his ascension into heaven. He showed himself, as a resurrected Lord to those prophets. I see no evidence that the canon was closed. I see no evidence that Jesus no longer needs 12 apostles. As long as there is one person left standing on the earth to be saved, the work will not be done.

Is there a possibility of a false prophet? You bet your bippy! But I am sad that all you can use to refute Joseph is old and tired anti arguments. Even if Joseph never happened, I couldn't believe that the canon would be closed. I couldn't believe that God would call prophets and then just decide to stop because.......they died??? Or that he would leave man to such confusion. It just doesn't make sense to me. I know the scriptures say "do not add to this book". That argument doesn't hold water. The fact is ALL of the NT was recorded after the life of the Savior. I know you have to argue this way. I know. It is ok. All I can do is to testify that I believe that God still talks to man. That he still reveals himself and that he gives revelations. The evidence of this is very biblical to me and the lack of this understanding in modern Christianity is a point of great alarm for me. If it was so important to understand that God would no longer be talking to man, then I imagine he would have said so much more clearly and directly. I am sorry that Joseph's story is so threatening to the establishment. But so was Paul's, and Stephen's (he was stoned for saying he saw the Lord) and so very many others. The tactics that people use to discredit the prophets of God are the same today. I get that we have direct access. Having a prophet does not prevent direct access. It provides leadership and revelation and helps direct the work. A church without a prophet is like children without parents. If direct access were the only necessary piece, why would Jesus call 12? not just one, but 12?

Have you really studied Joseph's prophecies? Objectively? Have you read his account of the first vision and his subsequent visitations? Have you read the BofM or the Docrtrine and Covenants? Have you read our General Conference talks and have an overall picture of what we believe and how we got there?

Having said that, I have hi-jacked. Sorry Elphie! Can I offer a twinkie as a peace offering?

[HiJolly]

First, for those who don't know me well, I am an atheist, and while it is complicated, one of the reasons is I see no evidence of a god of any kind. This is despite my doing everything I could to gain a testimony.

(If anyone reading this is wont to tell me what I haven’t done, please don’t. I want to keep my conversation directed at my question.)

Additionally, despite people who think they know otherwise, I cannot choose to believe in a god I do not believe in. The lack of any gods is so obvious to me, I cannot force myself to believe otherwise.

I was raised in the Church, and was active until I was 25, at which point I had my name removed. I have a fairly good grasp of LDS doctrine, except for the teachings learned in the temple.

Elph, This is a great set of questions, and I have read through the thread and it is excellent. Many good, and a few great, answers. However, I would like to make a few points myself.

I would like to point out, that we DO choose what we believe in. If you don't think that is valid, I'd invite you to reconsider. This, I would think, is self-evident, but in case you're wondering I would point you to brain-washing as an example. Ok, it's a negative example, but, it still proves the point, I would think.

That said, like you, I don't believe in a God I don't believe in either.

The choice is yours, really. That there are things relating to a God that you can believe in, I think is an a priori truth, whomever you are. Maybe you just need to start really, really small. For example, do you beleive in 'truth'? Sure you do, or you wouldn't talk about something possibly being REAL.

Anyway.

So here is what I do not understand:

Even though I am an atheist, if I were to die and end up in a supernatural “prison,” which if I remember correctly is not as dire as it sounds, and the gospel was being taught to me by exalted beings, why would I then choose not to accept it? After all, I would now have hard evidence there was a God and the LDS doctrines were true.

I wish I could explain how I know what I know, but it is a very long process of learning and with such varied inputs. So, just picture me as you would Yoda... lol.

The thing is, that the veil exists on both sides of the veil, and it's rending or lifting depends on many factors. Almost NO ONE will get all their memories back upon dying, and that's for sure. Maybe some memories will return, such as recognising a loved one you never met in mortality (say, a grandmother who died before your birth), but that's not nearly enough to 'prove' to you anything. After all, philosophically speaking, you could STILL be a 'brain in a jar', couldn't you.

IOW, I don't know what you think 'hard evidence' is, but it ISN'T living beyond death, I assure you. I think you will find, after you pass on, that there is really nothing 'hard' in that life, nothing much at all. IOW, external limitation upon what you can visualize, what you can etherically form for yourself, will be vastly reduced from what you now experience. And that's saying something!

Not only that, but your wonderful logical and precise 'thinking' mind will lose a bit of it's rigor. Things will not be as clear to your reason as they were in mortality, though you may possibly convince yourself that your reason is unchanged, which will simply plunge you further into an etheric 'prison' of your own making. Not a comforting thought, I know.

If you meet someone on the other side, how will you know they are exalted? Will someone tell you they are? Will you believe them? Why? Will a glorious appearance prove it? Really?

You speak of having evidence that the LDS doctrines are true, if you live beyond death. Whilst Gordon B. Hinkley and David O. McKay agree that there is no death, there is only change, they are not the only ones, nor from the only religion that believes this. What about the Hindu, Jainist, Buddhist, Daoist, Muslim, etc. traditions? They also believe in an afterlife -- could you not meet some of them in Prison/Paradise?

You will be as likely to meet Baptists who 'know' they are in heaven, as you are to meet LDS missionaries, exalted or not. I truly believe this, beyond mere belief. But am I constrained by the limitations of this life, to be unable to convey it to you as it has been conveyed to me. (see my prev. comment on external limitations of this life)

Additionally, if I remember correctly, I will have the opportunity to see Christ in person. And I guarantee you, if Christ were standing before me in heaven, then I would know He is the Christ, that the gospel is true, and would choose to accept it.

Why would I not? Why would anyone not?

I think you overestimate your capabilities in the next life. Seriously so. If Christ's diciples on the road to Emmaus couldn't recognise him, having known Him themselves, why would you? What would enable you to recognise Him? Desire alone? Did that give you the *knowledge* that He's real in your first 25 years of mortality? Why would that change?

Who would ever choose not to accept the LDS gospel in these circumstances?

Whilst I don't believe this .pdf to be 'gospel', it does fit with what I understand of the next world, quite nicely.

http://www.spiritwritings.com/TravelsSpiritWorldLarson.pdf

Enjoy.

David O. McKay, when asked what it was like to die, said "Oh, that's easy. It's like going from this room to that room". - David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism p. 27 (Dunn interview, Jan. 11, 1997).

HiJolly

[lostnfound]

To lostnfound,

I understand your argument. I don't agree that the work was done after the cross. The Atonement was finished, yes, and the law was fulfilled. But Jesus continued to call and sustain prophets after his ascension into heaven. He showed himself, as a resurrected Lord to those prophets. I see no evidence that the canon was closed. I see no evidence that Jesus no longer needs 12 apostles. As long as there is one person left standing on the earth to be saved, the work will not be done.

Is there a possibility of a false prophet? You bet your bippy! But I am sad that all you can use to refute Joseph is old and tired anti arguments. Even if Joseph never happened, I couldn't believe that the canon would be closed. I couldn't believe that God would call prophets and then just decide to stop because.......they died??? Or that he would leave man to such confusion. It just doesn't make sense to me. I know the scriptures say "do not add to this book". That argument doesn't hold water. The fact is ALL of the NT was recorded after the life of the Savior. I know you have to argue this way. I know. It is ok. All I can do is to testify that I believe that God still talks to man. That he still reveals himself and that he gives revelations. The evidence of this is very biblical to me and the lack of this understanding in modern Christianity is a point of great alarm for me. If it was so important to understand that God would no longer be talking to man, then I imagine he would have said so much more clearly and directly. I am sorry that Joseph's story is so threatening to the establishment. But so was Paul's, and Stephen's (he was stoned for saying he saw the Lord) and so very many others. The tactics that people use to discredit the prophets of God are the same today. I get that we have direct access. Having a prophet does not prevent direct access. It provides leadership and revelation and helps direct the work. A church without a prophet is like children without parents. If direct access were the only necessary piece, why would Jesus call 12? not just one, but 12?

Have you really studied Joseph's prophecies? Objectively? Have you read his account of the first vision and his subsequent visitations? Have you read the BofM or the Docrtrine and Covenants? Have you read our General Conference talks and have an overall picture of what we believe and how we got there?

Having said that, I have hi-jacked. Sorry Elphie! Can I offer a twinkie as a peace offering?

To answer all your end questions there. The answer is yes..I will continue to look at them. And no I don't have to answer the way that I do.

[VisionOfLehi]

D&C 130:

18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.

19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

Alma 12:

13 Then if our hearts have been hardened, yea, if we have hardened our hearts against the word, insomuch that it has not been found in us, then will our state be awful, for then we shall be condemned. 14 For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence.

-------

If you live through this life with a hardened heart, I full well believe that your heart will also be hardened in the next life. The missionaries may even be there, and those with hardened hearts might say the equivalent of "Go away, I don't want to hear it."

I'm sure it's not as easy as "Hey, there's Mormon missionaries here. They must've been right."

Where is Satan at this time? I doubt he'll just let the dead rest, when he's got Mormons to work against.

No, I don't think it'll be a simple matter of "Oh, there's God, there's Christ, now I have full faith in them."

----

There was a diverging topic that most people probably have "just in case" beliefs (I will not say faith, because it's not.) That's sad.

Alma 32:21 helped me make the decision to be baptized.

21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

I (personally) don't have any fear of the afterlife. I just hope with all my heart, and have faith, that what I believe in is true. I want it to be true for its own sake, not simply for mine.

The Gospel is so wonderful, all that I've learned, how could I NOT want it to be true? It's beyond me.

[Moksha]

If Christ's diciples on the road to Emmaus couldn't recognise him, having known Him themselves, why would you?

Yikes, that would seem to therefore be a problem for the most ardent believers as well. I suppose wearing a carnation to help recognize him would be out of the picture.

[tubaloth]

joseph smith saw a vision. and since nobody was there how do you know it was even Jesus? We are to test the spirits.

That is kind of the point. We have to take things on faith! We aren’t going to know every answer! For the purpose of the original question, it seemed like ONLY IF the Messenger was Christ would She/he believe it. That isn’t going to happen so there is no proof. IF in the next life I see some guy with a beard then I’ll believe? That isn’t how this all works! Someone is says they have seen God and Christ! But nope that still isn’t good enough (even though the list is longer then just Joseph Smith).

In the nt we do not have in the early church prophets giving new scriptures. The cannon is closed. The work was finished at the cross.

Huh? So no scripture came after Christ died on the cross? Why? We don’t need God's word anymore? So even Christ’s teachings in Acts (let a lone Pauls writings and Revelation?) there is no reason/use for it? Where does it say that in the bible? "The Scripture well end after I die"?

Even more if we do believe that, that means we can still use the first 3/4ths of the book of mormon before Christ died?

The way someone would test the spirit is to align the teachings of that spirit with the Bible the full athurity of God.

I would agree with this for the most part. First I guess we need to test this saying from the bible correct?

Next, What did Joseph Smith bring forth, Things that go inline with the bible?

PROPHETS WERE 100% ACCURATE

We do realize there are things that haven’t come to pass that have been prophised? Does that mean they are a false prophet UNTIL it happens, or a good Prophet until the end of the world?

Jesus says there is one mediator between God and Man and that is Jesus Christ" We have direct access to him and him alone.

I agree, that’s one of the main messages of the Book of Mormon (Alma 42?)

Back to the first question!

Are minds aren’t going to change as quickly as I think you assume they well. Faith is an universal principle, and one of the biggest reasons we are on this earth! I do suggest all Read the Lectures on Faith, you well understand how the idea of God is so spread through out the world!

[lostnfound]

ONE QUICK NOTE i was not saying the cannon was closed after christ died obviously..Paul still had his ministry. But the reason for Christ coming was finished at the cross.

[VisionOfLehi]

ONE QUICK NOTE i was not saying the cannon was closed after christ died obviously..Paul still had his ministry. But the reason for Christ coming was finished at the cross.

So, there was no purpose in Him resurrecting, in your opinion?

[lostnfound]

So, there was no purpose in Him resurrecting, in your opinion?

Got me there! My mistake. I should have said his death, burial and resurrection! Without resurrection this would be pointless to go any further.

[drjme]

In the nt we do not have in the early church prophets giving new scriptures. The cannon is closed. The work was finished at the cross.

Eh? yes we do. Its called the New Testament.

[skalenfehl]

(If anyone reading this is wont to tell me what I haven’t done, please don’t. I want to keep my conversation directed at my question.)...

...Why would I not? Why would anyone not?

Who would ever choose not to accept the LDS gospel in these circumstances?

Folks, let's stay on point, please. Thank you.

[lostnfound]

i see what your saying. I'll elaborate more on this later. I think it is an important topic.

[skalenfehl]

Some have said that if you reject the gospel here you will not have the chance to accept it in the spirit world. That is untrue, however at the expense of the Celestial Kingdom (see my previous post quoting LDS.org).

Elphaba, I'm inclined to agree that folks would choose to accept the gospel in the spirit world under the circumstances you cited. Indeed, why would they choose not to? The only answer I can think of, really, is that they would prefer to inherit the Telestial Kingdom. So it begs the question, why would someone prefer to inherit the Telestial Kingdom over the Terrestrial Kingdom?

[Moksha]

So it begs the question, why would someone prefer to inherit the Telestial Kingdom over the Terrestrial Kingdom?

Better bowling alleys?

[Teancum18]

Better bowling alleys?

Thanks for lightening the mood there, buddy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

3,326 posts, a senior member, and you're on here begging the questions you are?? Well, regardless of my confusion, I sincerely trust that you have your reasons. :) I'm probably just too inexperienced on internet forums. No, that is not sarcasm. I really am still very new to this whole thing.

Anyway, I never meant to be condescending, hurtful, and discouraging. Just straightforward. Many of you will learn that I am not a member of this church because my parents raised me in it, social status, or anything related to some inner desire to be "right." I am member of this church for two reasons: 1) the spirit beareth witness to me. 2) It holds the most accountability than any other Christian church. It makes sense, if this life is a "time to prepare to meet God," then of course we will be held accountable for how we used this time. If we screw up, then it will stand as a testimony against us. God wont even have to judge us. We'll judge ourselves.

The same goes for me. If I screw this preparatory time up, I will pay the price. It will not be for me to say, "Oh I think God is not just if He holds me accountable for my actions." Essentially, that is general message behind all statements that start out, "I don't think God would be just/fair/kind/loving if...." Saying things like that will not relieve us of our responsibility. Not to mention the failure of logic being expressed. "I don't believe in God, but I don't think He is this way." If a person doesn't believe in God, how could they possibly know anything about Him?

Personally, I fail to understand how so many churches can say, "Oh just believe and you're ok." I'm sure Heavenly Father is up there saying something like, "Why can't my children just do what I have asked them to do? Why do they always have to make excuses? Why do they always have to change their beliefs to justify their own actions? Why can't anyone just be responsible enough to be accountable for their actions? WHO IS GOING TO TAKE A STAND AND HELP BUILD MY KINGDOM?"

Please don't think I am being contentious or condescending. I know it might sound that way, but that's because of how hurt I feel. What is being manifested in this post is coming ONLY from the heartache I feel. Nothing else. And that heartache is not directed at anyone in particular. I have felt this same heartache for years before I ever got on these forums.

[Hemidakota]

To add Lehi's D&C reference, not only you will dare not to look upon GOD or even them who are gloried in that state of glory.

[Elphaba]

Why don’t you accept it here?

Because I see no evidence of “it” here. I also have never had a spiritual experience.

DO you think the it’s the Messengers aren’t doing a good enough job?

Apparently not, although I have no idea who the “Messengers” are.

For the same reasons you can’t get your self to believe it now, are the same reasons you well struggle to believe it in the next life. You are still going to be the same person when you get into the next life. Same mind set, same way of looking at things.

Really? That is great news!

My mindset is that if I am wrong about something, I will admit it, and wantt to learn more about the truth. .

For example, if I die and wake up in a REAL place, such as the REAL spirit prison where EXALTED BEINGS are teaching me the gospel, then yes, because of my traits I will take with me, I will admit I was wrong about my atheism, and be open to what they were teaching me.

How so? The teachings of the Gospel are just as basic here as they are going to be there. We teach that God had a son, Jesus Was the Christ and died for us.

Good. When I die and wake up in a REAL paradise, and see GOD or CHRIST in person, then of course I would believe. I would also admit I had been wrong, and bow before them.

A few people have said what you have above, and I don't get it. Do you seriously think if God or Christ stood before you it would just be a minor event? Do you seriously think if one or the other stood before me, I would say "No thanks," and walk away? This is idiotic to me.

I’m guessing sense you don’t believe in an after life, when you got to the next stage you would realize your thinking processes was wrong and thus accept anything that comes to you.

What else would come to me? People keep writing this, but provide no references that it is doctrine. I was never taught there would be something/someone else there to sway people away from heaven.

This doesn’t happen this way. WE still are going to have to build faith (which I assume is your biggest struggle),

No, I don’t struggle with it. My question is a rhetorical one.

Build faith in what? If the gospel is true you'll be in a REAL place, with REAL people around who believe what you do, and with a chance to see Christ or God. What more do you need to see to have faith in?

you still are going to have to prove that you do believe, that you want to live it, that making covenants is something you want, and forgiveness of your sins.

Apparently you haven’t really been reading my posts, as I have said I would accept this once I was there and saw that it was REAL..

If you don’t feel that now, why would you feel it later?

Read my previous answers in this post. I am tired of repeating myself.

Not exactly but the Gospel well be preached to you. Others have said you had your choice, that is up to God to decided. But everybody well still have to Gospel Preached to them, If they already did have the spirit tell them the Gospel was true and they rejected it, they still well have that chance, its just they can’t get to the highest kingdom.

Fine by me.

The question then again is WHY? What makes you not believe in Christ now, but if he was standing in front of you, you would? Do you think you would feel the spirit that would let you know?

I've already answered this question above.

That’s how we come to know Christ, not by personal appearance but by coming to him, by keeping the commandments, and following the spirit. Those that come to him know Christ not by some picture they saw, or some name badge. They know Him for how he acts, how they feel around Him.

Good.

The point of this life is to develop that in ourselves, really to become one with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. To be like they are. That isn’t done in a second, or a month or a year it’s a lifetime!

I never said I would expect to become one with either one, or to be like they are. That is not my question.

Additionaly if it takes a lifetime, why does the Church bother to do proxy baptisms for those who did not have the chance to hear the gospel in their mortal lives? Many of them would not have spent a lifetime, or even five minutes, learning how to become one with HF or Christ.

But even more, we have to learn to live God’s law. In the D&C we learn that if we are living a Telestial Law, then we get a Telestial Kingdom. The point of this life is to see if we can live up to a Celestial Law! If we can’t! Then we get what Kingdom for which Law we can live!

If it is REAL, I'm there.

This is why we feel God’s judgment well be just! People truly well get the Kingdom they have lived for! It well be “Heaven” for them, even if it isn’t the highest!

Again, fine by me. As long as I know it is REAL.

Elphaba

[drjme]

*sigh*

If you need some sort of evidence learn about the Daniel prophecies, so you can start asking questions like "how the heck could he know the destiny of all those nations?" or "how did he predict the exact year of Jesus Christs birth?"

This whole thread sums up as:

'Give me a sign so I can believe'

'No elph you need to have faith, it doesn't work like that'

'faith in what? there is nothing there because I can't see it. how can I have faith in something that is not real?'

'because that's how faith works'

'If I had a sign then I would have faith'

There are many things I don't know or understand, but that doesn't mean they are false or not real, I just have faith that one day they will be revealed to me, because if I don't know or understand them, how can I declare them one way or the other? I can't.

The thing is you can find out in this life, before you die, If Christ lives. Would a Intense burning in your chest and a voice whispering the truth to you be a sign enough? because it happened to me. you just have to follow Gods process to find truth, not mans.

It just depends if you really want to or not. Since the question you ask seems to be rhetorical, seems you don't want to really find out, you're just asking the question for conversations sake?

[Elphaba]

In the future would you please use one font and one size? Playing with the type makes it difficult to read. Additionally, your attempt to belittle me with the tiny type is juvenile. If your argument can't stand on its own, then please don't respond to my posts.

So you deny any possibility of a God? Closed off your mind and decided completely without any possibility of changing your mind, except upon death?

Yes.

Sorry, I just can't comprehend the mindset of 'because I don't really know, that means it's not true'.

I never asked you to.

It's like thinking 'There NEVER have been ANY other forms of life except humans in this INFINITE universe......uuumm..until I see them with my own eyes'

It is nothing of the kind.

The universe is REAL. It has been observed and is constantly being studied by scientists.

Additionally, I acknowledge there could be, and probably are, other life forms in the universe that I will never see with my own eyes.

It does not take blind faith to believe this. It takes a modicum of education in science, critical thinking and logic. None of these prove a god.

When the reality is we just Don't know yet. So why make a declaration of 'There is No God!' because basically, you just don't know if there is one or not? You have no 'hard evidence' of there NOT being a God, Just as I have no 'hard evidence' of there being one. (I don't know why bold txt is stuck on I'm not trying to emphasize)

First, I don't go around declaring "There is no God," so please tone down the hyperbole.

Regarding who can prove what, no one can prove a negative, such as there is no god, and I don't have to. You are the one claiming there is a god. Therefore, the emphasis is on you to prove it, not me.

The scriptures of course and the Witness of the Holy Ghost, >snip< not just any old person seeing him in the street.

I have already given you my opinion about this. Additionally, being an atheist, scripture is obviously not persuasive to me. Most importantly, your commentary is not germane to my question..

Faith generally works opposite to how the human mind works though, Faith leads to confirmation or evidence not the other way around. It's like a friend I have who is a Christian. He seems to require evidence to justify his beliefs(thats how he first got interested). And because of that the endless search to prove the bible correct by finding evidence and trying to explain the things of God with the comprehension of man, to ensure 'hard evidence' to continue with faith. At the expense of contradicting scripture to maintain the evidence.

Again, scripture means nothing to me, and your paragraph has nothing to do with my question.

Didn't say it's doctrinal, it just seems logical that if the spirits of men are where they are, they take their intelligence from this world with them, and God and Jesus are not there (otherwise why would the missionaries need to be there) then the spirits of men left to their own devices will continue, as men left to their own devices.

If it is not doctrinal then it is mere speculation. I am not interested in anyone's speculation.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Thats why it seems like your biggest struggle is with Faith...

I am not struggling at all. I am confident in my beliefs. My question is rhetorical.

Lamen and Lemual both had an Angel apper to them and that didn't change who they were. (Because it is taught they were pass feeling).

I have never had an angel appear to me, so this is not applicable.

Others even saw the signs of Christ Birth and still explained it away to be something else. Even trying to see in the wrong light people explain it away.

I do not try to explain anything away. I do not believe in a god.

Joseph Smith did have a REAL person appear to him, yet you can't get your mind around that.

Yes, I could get my mind around that if I saw evidence of it.

The only thing it well take is a REAL person coming to you?

No. If a REAL supernatural person came to me, I would have no way of knowing if it spoke truth or not.

My belief would only change if I had died and woke up to a REAL place, populated with REAL people, with EXALTED BEINGS teaching LDS doctrine, etc.. And especially if I were to meet Christ or God.

Once the spirit is felt, it becomes REAL!

I have never had any spiritual experience despite my attempts to do so. Why does your experience trump mine?

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Elph, This is a great set of questions, and I have read through the thread and it is excellent. Many good, and a few great, answers. However, I would like to make a few points myself.

I would like to point out, that we DO choose what we believe in. If you don't think that is valid, I'd invite you to reconsider. This, I would think, is self-evident, but in case you're wondering I would point you to brain-washing as an example.

Then perhaps you are brainwashed but don’t know it.

The choice is yours, really. That there are things relating to a God that you can believe in, I think is an a priori truth, whomever you are.

So what if a I choose to believe in a deity that does not exist?

It is not a choice for me to not believe in a deity. I can no longer believe in a god than you can in Santa Claus. And I am not being disrespectful. It is just the best analogy I can come up with.

Go ahead and try it. Choose to believe in Santa Claus. How do you know he’s not real? Have you ever seen him? That doesn’t prove he is not real, just that you do not have enough faith. No, he doesn’t come around to houses every Christmas, but that is probably just a myth about him written by men, one of many. It doesn’t matter because you have chosen to believe in him, despite the evidence to the contrary.

This is EXACTLY how it is to me.

It is unimaginable to me there is any god whatsoever, and that there is anything beyond this life. It is the only thing that makes sense to me. And no, I did not choose to believe this. When it occurred to me there was no god, it was like an epiphany to me, and instantly all of the puzzle pieces fit. It is the only thing that makes sense to me, and I cannot choose to believe in a deity I do not believe in anymore than you can choose to believe in Santa Claus.

Maybe you just need to start really, really small.

Either LDS doctrine, including the afterlife, is true or it isn‘t.. What part of that am I supposed to take really really small?

For example, do you believe in 'truth'? Sure you do, or you wouldn't talk about something possibly being REAL.

I am not claiming the LDS version of life after death is REAL. I am asking why would I choose not to accept the gospel after death given what I would see was REAL. It is a rhetorical question.

The thing is, that the veil exists on both sides of the veil, and it's rending or lifting depends on many factors. Almost NO ONE will get all their memories back upon dying, and that's for sure. Maybe some memories will return, such as recognising a loved one you never met in mortality (say, a grandmother who died before your birth), but that's not nearly enough to 'prove' to you anything. After all, philosophically speaking, you could STILL be a 'brain in a jar', couldn't you.

I don’t understand your point here. Losing my earthly memory has nothing to do with accepting the gospel or not. My question is why would anyone choose not to accept it with all of the evidence available.

IOW, I don't know what you think 'hard evidence' is

I have explained numerous times what I would consider “hard evidence.” Dying, waking up to the LDS version of the afterlife which is a REAL place, REAL spirit prison with exalted beings as teachers, REAL paradise, etc.

but it ISN'T living beyond death, I assure you. I think you will find, after you pass on, that there is really nothing 'hard' in that life, nothing much at all. IOW, external limitation upon what you can visualize, what you can etherically form for yourself, will be vastly reduced from what you now experience. And that's saying something!

Sounds great. So why would I chose not to accept the gospel?

Not only that, but your wonderful logical and precise 'thinking' mind will lose a bit of it's rigor.

Why? Why would God want my mind to lose its rigor?

Every one keeps telling me I’ll take my mindset and traits through the veil, which is what I was taught as a member. Now you are telling me “not quite”?

So what if my mind is not as precise? Does that mean I am going to be a dumbed down spirit when it comes to learning about and choosing to accept the gospel? Are all of the other students going to be dumbed down as well? Or is it only people like me--perhaps a punishment to atheists?

Things will not be as clear to your reason as they were in mortality, though you may possibly convince yourself that your reason is unchanged, which will simply plunge you further into an etheric 'prison' of your own making.

My “reason” is that if I die and wake up to the LDS version of life after death, then I will acknowledge I was wrong as an atheist, and choose to accept the gospel. So why would that place me in a prison?

If you meet someone on the other side, how will you know they are exalted? Will someone tell you they are? Will you believe them? Why? Will a glorious appearance prove it? Really?

No it would not, and I never said I would.

What I would accept as evidence the LDS gospel is true is if woke up to the LDS version of the afterlife. This is not just one exalted being or one glorious appeaance.

I never asked what would happen if I died and woke up elsewhere. My question is why would I not choose to accept the gospel after all of the evidence I would see after I died.

You speak of having evidence that the LDS doctrines are true, if you live beyond death.

No, I don't. Just living beyond death would not convince me LDS doctrine is true.

I would have to "wake up" to the LDS version of the afterlife I was taught as a member. including paradise, spirit prison, exalted beings, etc., If it aligns with what I was taught, then I would believe it.

Just living beyond death would not convince me LDS doctrines are true.

Whilst Gordon B. Hinkley and David O. McKay agree that there is no death, there is only change, they are not the only ones, nor from the only religion that believes this. What about the Hindu, Jainist, Buddhist, Daoist, Muslim, etc. traditions? They also believe in an afterlife -- could you not meet some of them in Prison/Paradise?

]Sure I could. But according to LDS doctrine, the exalted beings will be the ones doing the teaching. So all of these people you mentioned would be the students, not the teachers.

You will be as likely to meet Baptists who 'know' they are in heaven, as you are to meet LDS missionaries, exalted or not.

So what? According to what I have been taught, those in charge will be Latter-day- Saints, or the heavenly name for them.

I think you overestimate your capabilities in the next life. Seriously so. If Christ's diciples on the road to Emmaus couldn't recognise him, having known Him themselves, why would you? What would enable you to recognise Him? Desire alone? Did that give you the *knowledge* that He's real in your first 25 years of mortality? Why would that change?

Because I would not be in the Jerusalem of 2000 years ago, I would be in heaven!

If I were in a REAL place, with REAL people, with REAL exalted beings, teaching the gospel, etc., then I would have proof that I my atheism was wrong. And if Christ came into my presence, I’m sure people around me would know, and I assume would be excited to have Him there.

If he came into presence and I was alone, then I assume he would introduce Himself. If not, then no, I would not recognize Him until another time when others could tell me it was Him, or he chose to tell me Himself.

But I doubt this would matter, as I would have enough evidence already to ascertain for myself the LDS version of the afterlife, and therefore the gospel, is true. And thus, I would choose to accept it.

And no, I never had the “knowledge” that He was real in my first 25 years of mortality. I think I’ve made that very clear by now.

Whilst I don't believe this .pdf to be 'gospel', it does fit with what I understand of the next world, quite nicely.

http://www.spiritwritings.com/TravelsSpiritWorldLarson.pdf

Enjoy.

It would not load for me. However, unless it is doctrine, or an official version of the afterlife, it does not pertain to my question.

David O. McKay, when asked what it was like to die, said "Oh, that's easy. It's like going from this room to that room".

So why then would my mind lose its rigor?

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Some have said that if you reject the gospel here you will not have the chance to accept it in the spirit world. That is untrue, however at the expense of the Celestial Kingdom (see my previous post quoting LDS.org).

Elphaba, I'm inclined to agree that folks would choose to accept the gospel in the spirit world under the circumstances you cited. Indeed, why would they choose not to? The only answer I can think of, really, is that they would prefer to inherit the Telestial Kingdom. So it begs the question, why would someone prefer to inherit the Telestial Kingdom over the Terrestrial Kingdom?

Thank you Ska. I appreciate the clarification about who will have a chance to accept the gospel.

I also think your answer to my question is intriguing. I had assumed people like me would not inherit the Celestial Kingdom. But I had not thought of choosing the lower kingdom as a reason not to accept the gospel.

I really appreciate you addressing the question in my post as I requested.

You know what? That was a good answer!

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

3,326 posts, a senior member, and you're on here begging the questions you are??

Fifty-nine posts and you are questioning my motives? And you are . . . who?

And no I am not begging the question. I am raising it. Look it up.

I never meant to be condescending, hurtful, and discouraging.

Here's a little advice. Don't start a post by being rude, and then say "Oh by the way, I never meant to be condescending." It's a lazy way of being rude because you want to, but don't want to own up to it.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

*sigh*

If you need some sort of evidence learn about the Daniel prophecies, so you can start asking questions like "how the heck could he know the destiny of all those nations?" or "how did he predict the exact year of Jesus Christs birth?"

I don't need any evidence, nor did I ask for it. I never made any claims about this, nor was it ever part of my conversation. I have no idea why you think I did.

This whole thread sums up as:

'Give me a sign so I can believe'

'No elph you need to have faith, it doesn't work like that'

'faith in what? there is nothing there because I can't see it. how can I have faith in something that is not real?'

'because that's how faith works'

'If I had a sign then I would have faith'

Did you even read my question? It had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with faith.

My question was: Why would someone die, wake up in a REAL place, with all of the things the Church said would be in in this REAL place, be taught the gospel by exalted beings, and yet choose not to accept it? NONE of that has anything to do with faith. You're projecting your beliefs onto my question.

. . . .

The thing is you can find out in this life, before you die, If Christ lives. Would a Intense burning in your chest and a voice whispering the truth to you be a sign enough? because it happened to me. you just have to follow Gods process to find truth, not mans.. . . It just depends if you really want to or not.

I am often dismayed at how presumptuous people like you are. You have no idea what I have or haven't done to gain a testimony. And you think you are in a position to assume you know. You don't.

I believe you experienced what you say you did. I do not understand what it was because I have never experienced it. But I would never presume to intimate your personal experiences were not as valid as mine.

Since the question you ask seems to be rhetorical, seems you don't want to really find out, you're just asking the question for conversations sake?

I asked the question because there was a time it would have been considered thought-provoking, and it thought I was get some interesting answers. I got one.

We used to have a lot of interesting discussions like this on TALK. Since then, if you aren't bearing your testimony no one is interested.

Elphaba

[sgallan]

The only answer I can think of, really, is that they would prefer to inherit the Telestial Kingdom. So it begs the question, why would someone prefer to inherit the Telestial Kingdom over the Terrestrial Kingdom?

If such a thing were proven to be true; I would. Why? I just wouldn't want to spend an eternity with this particular God and a lot of His followers.