Belief: It's Weird

[pushka]

sjdean, I had the feeling of being drawn back to the LDS church over the last 7 years...I occasionally thought about acting on that feeling, but with the influence of my friends I didn't return. However I joined this message board (LDStalk, as it was then), and began to read more about the church again.

Last September I had one evening of an overwhelming urge to return to the church, to receive the BOM and any other literature I could get, I followed that 'drawing' feeling and ordered a copy of the BOM to be delivered to me by the Missionaries...by the time they brought it to me I'd lost my nerve again, so I just took the book and said I'd contact them when I was ready...It took me another 3 1/2 months to act again upon the feeling I'd had. I finally returned to the church in January this year, I'd never been a member before, never been baptised. I tried to find telephone numbers for some of my old friends at church, but couldn't, then one day I bumped into one of the people I'd been trying to contact, in a shop, and we chatted together and arranged to meet at church the following Sunday. Around 6 weeks later I was Baptised a member, I do still struggle to believe some doctrines, but I do have faith that I might begin to believe them more easily the more I attend church and have good, uplifting experiences there and with the members at other activities.

Maybe you need to follow my lead and see how you feel after visiting the church a number of times...?

[ctr_tanc]

It's like everyone on here is saying sjdean, a witness doesn't come until after the trial of your faith. In the Book of Mormon there's the story of Korihor, who asked for a sign saying "If thou wilt show me a sign, that I may be convinced that there is a God, yea, show unto me that he hath power, and then will I be convinced of the truth of thy words." (Alma 30:43) He insisted that he wanted to have the sign and the witness or he refused to believe.

There a story in the Bible of a man named Gideon in Judges 6. He also asks God for a sign, but there's an important difference between the two accounts. Why did God destroy Korihor and save Gideon? Korihor's intent was to disbelieve all UNTIL he was given the sign. He was determined to KNOW and not have faith. In the case of Gideon, his attitude was one of compliance, not defiance. Gideon was willing to do all that the Lord asked of him, but requested the as he did the Lord's will in leading the armies of Israel, that he would be given a sign to show him that he is already doing the right thing. He did not ask for a sign to remove his need for faith, he asked for a sign to encourage his faith. Later he used the very signs he had been given to encourage himself and strengthen his faith in Judges 7:1-7 when the Lord shrunk his army to 300 people to stand against the entire host of the Midianites. God is a God of signs and miracles, but no sign or miracle comes until after the trial of our faith. Korihor wanted no faith, Gideon wanted encouragement in his faith.

I've had instances of both of these in my own life. There have been times where I have asked for signs just as you have. I will confidently say that I have never been given a sign when I asked as you have. The times when I have been given signs are when I went out in faith to ACT, asking for encouragement along the way. I encourage you to contact the missionaries, read your Book of Mormon (or get a new one and read it if your friend's still borrowing it), go to church on Sundays. I encourage you to experiment on God's words. Test them. Ask for encouragement and witnesses or "signs" along the way as you show your willingness to God through your actions.

I hope that I could help. I'm happy for you! I'm confident that you'll find joy in this church, the only church that contains the fulness on the Lord's gospel! I have felt that joy in my own life. I know that as you put forth the effort to follow the council of the missionaries and the commandments of God found in the scriptures you will find joy in this gospel and know that it is true!

[WillowTheWhisp]

"God won't do for us, what we can do for ourselves."

You reminded me of a story I've heard a couple of times about a guy who is shipwrecked and prays to God for help. A boat comes by and offers to pick him up but he says he doesn't need help because he has faith that God will save him. Then a lifeboat crew comes by to rescue him and he says he doesn't need rescuing because he has faith that God will save him. Then a helicopter flying over head lowers a rope ladder to him and he refuses saying that he has prayed to God and he has faith that God will save him.

Then he drowns.

In the spirit world he confronts the Saviour and demands to know why his prayers were not answered.

The Saviour replies, "My Father sent you a boat, a lifeguard and a helicopter - what more did you want?"

[Listener]

What a wonderful thread. And thank you to SJD for being open enough to share the struggle.

I belong to the "taste and see" school, at least when we are talking about choices which are potentially good for us. We learn best by doing, and being open to learn from the process. I agree with the comments about visiting congregations, and also with seeking out missionaries. Just stay open...sometimes the answer comes through the hundred small steps taken to experience for yourself what everyone else is talking about.

I wonder if you are worried about making a mistake. If so, asking lots of questions and spending time with people who would love to help you seems safe and sound.

PS I'm not LDS. It may not help you, but your thread has encouraged me to do for myself what I've just encouraged you to do. So, thanks.

[sjdean]

As I've read this thread, the thought keeps running through my mind. "God won't do for us, what we can do for ourselves." I've heard this many times. Heavenly Father sent you the missionaries once, maybe now it's your turn to call them and invite them back into your home. Thus showing Heavenly Father, your serious, you want to know and your willing to make the effort to really know. I know Heavenly Father answers all our prayers. Many times though we have to get up off our knees and go do, for us to get those answers. Have you ever thought, that you being drawn to the church is a sign? Is your answer?

I think for me, it's not just a case of accepting Christ, and God into our lives, but its the problem of accepting a particular churches doctrines and teachings, its precepts and ideals.

I've heard it mentioned a few times before about living the gospel. Im a bit uncomfortable with living anything if Im not sure its true, or rather I don't have enough of a testimony to believe.

I have had the missionaries round. But cut it short at only four lessons. I heard about the idea that its worse to reject the gospel than it is to have never been given a chance to accept it. I figure I havent fully heard the gospel so Im not just flat out rejecting it.

[sjdean]

I apologize. I had quoted from the book of Matthew. It was a Biblical reference on its own.

Sorry. Just goes to show how little of the Bible I know. I have a copy of the New International Version in front of me. I find it an easier to follor version than the King James Version.

[sjdean]

I wonder if you are worried about making a mistake. If so, asking lots of questions and spending time with people who would love to help you seems safe and sound.

I worry about everything, and I do worry about making mistakes. I worry about giving up alcohol, or tea and coffee, giving up sunday mornings, paying 10% of my income to a church - when I can't be sure its correct.

I worry about being baptised into what could be a false church. A lot of churches are convinced that they are the one. If I join one, and its wrong, aren't I distancing myself from God and Christ? Every church are convinced they are doing good, therefore they are of God.

[sjdean]

There a story in the Bible of a man named Gideon in Judges 6. He also asks God for a sign, but there's an important difference between the two accounts. Why did God destroy Korihor and save Gideon? Korihor's intent was to disbelieve all UNTIL he was given the sign. He was determined to KNOW and not have faith. In the case of Gideon, his attitude was one of compliance, not defiance. Gideon was willing to do all that the Lord asked of him, but requested the as he did the Lord's will in leading the armies of Israel, that he would be given a sign to show him that he is already doing the right thing. He did not ask for a sign to remove his need for faith, he asked for a sign to encourage his faith. Later he used the very signs he had been given to encourage himself and strengthen his faith in Judges 7:1-7 when the Lord shrunk his army to 300 people to stand against the entire host of the Midianites. God is a God of signs and miracles, but no sign or miracle comes until after the trial of our faith. Korihor wanted no faith, Gideon wanted encouragement in his faith.

How many posts have you made?

That is a perfect response and provides much information in the style I seek. I don't wish to cheapen the idea - just trying to think of a euphemism, it seems to be a "try before you buy" ideology. Everyone seems to be saying that, as you are backing up here. Go out and do and seek confirmation.

I have faith in Christ and God, it's just that struggle trying to find out what interpretation is correct.

In the end, Im considering three possible religions, one that fits in with my ideology, one that's a "standard" (CofE) and the LDS church.

While Im not sure which way my faith lies, perhaps I should just go out and have faith in them all and then seek the confirmation.

Willow, doesn't that confirmation come from God by those good feelings?

[Maya]

You say: The way I see it, is that even the best of things can be done for evil motives. So the main question, is the Mormon church for me, the right thing or the wrong thing. It stems from the question of whether the Book of Mormon is inspired of the Devil or of God.

I say: from his fruit the tree isknown to be god or bad..so what do you think of the fruits of LDS??

Sure we have some bad fruit, but is there more bad than good fruit??

Are you sure you have not got the answer already but have not looked at the right place??

Maybe this is your trial? You have to do something before you know... jump in the dark... I dare you!

You say you did not want to hear more so you would not have the knowledge of all of it and.. so what?? Be cnvicted according to what you know?? HOW can you think you might be convicted IF you already didnt know?

[Maya]

I worry about everything, and I do worry about making mistakes. I worry about giving up alcohol, or tea and coffee, giving up sunday mornings, paying 10% of my income to a church - when I can't be sure its correct.

I worry about being baptised into what could be a false church. A lot of churches are convinced that they are the one. If I join one, and its wrong, aren't I distancing myself from God and Christ? Every church are convinced they are doing good, therefore they are of God.

Do you worry about not joining...think what IF it is the true church?

Yes the world is full of worries ... I was worried too... excactly that worried me...but I am not worriedany more neither is my mother who was extremely worried so worried she wanted me to meet and read abook by an anti... she is not a member though.

It is good to worry about making mistakes.. that is good..

Worry about giving up alcohol, caffe... uh...caffe for me was making trouble in my stomac...

Alkohol... hu, worry about giving up a stuff that makes nice fathers to monsters, usual pople to sexmaiacs, young men fight with knifes intillone drops dead... It is asd bad as any addictic stoff and it can also kill if consumed too much.

Tea.. there are thousands of herb tea better than usual tea... just see... celestialtea.. hehe like the name!

10%... auch yeah that might hurt...but considering what you get doing that it is little... I can testify that if you put your last pennies in the titings... in some miraculous way nothing breaks, you are offered things, food, and even money to corer the loss.... I seen that happen in my life, just close the eyes and pay and pray... you are doing well til next payday:D

If you get babtised and find out the Church was not true... well it is true so it wont happen!

Ok that was a bit ... If you find it wrong, you can resign, unlike fex Lutheran Church whose babtisement can not be wiped off.

God is love. He is mercifull, He is forgiving...so when ever you do something wrong repend from the bottom of your heart and He will be there with his arms open wide and take you home!

Worry i something we all do in times... coragious my brother coragious (was my spelling ok?) Uh English...

:)

[Listener]

On the other hand, God is probably bigger than your fears.

Just for encouragement...

Jesus to Martha--"you are worried and bothered about so many things; Mary has chosen the good part which shall not be taken from her" (referring to the fact that Mary chose to sit and open herself to what Jesus had to teach her)

Jesus to his disciples--"if you then, wicked as you are, know how to give good and advantageous gifts to your children, how much more will your Heavenly Father give you good and advantageous gifts"

unbeliever to Jesus (seeking healing, but struggling with it all)--"I believe; help me in my unbelief"

I don't see any evidence in the New Testament that God just can't wait to burn us for our mistakes. There seems to be lots of clear evidence that He loves us. Your concern about mistakes is genuine and sincere. Personally, I think God will reward that sincerity.

[sjdean]

Sometimes I do indeed think that I believe it's true. If I didn't believe, I wouldn't be worried about receiving the fullness of the gospel and rejecting it!

Do you worry about not joining...think what IF it is the true church?

At the moment, there are three churches I think could be correct. So what do I do about those? I don't know yet.

Worry about giving up alcohol, caffe... uh...caffe for me was making trouble in my stomac...

Alkohol... hu, worry about giving up a stuff that makes nice fathers to monsters, usual pople to sexmaiacs, young men fight with knifes intillone drops dead... It is asd bad as any addictic stoff and it can also kill if consumed too much.

I keep hearing this argument, and I will keep replying. I strenuously do not believe that alcohol makes nice fathers monsters, make usual people into sex maniacs, or make young men fight with knifes.

I believe that if people become a monster with alcohol, then they were monsters without alcohol - but the alcohol has just uncaged the beast if you like.

It is what those who cannot accept responsibility like to use. I didn't beat anybody up, it was the alcohol. I didn't shoot anyone, it was the gun. I didn't rape that woman, it was the clothes she was wearing.

I will keep speaking out on this issue while we blame alcohol for the worlds ills. Instead I want to see us focusing on the people that abuse alcohol and educate those who go too far.

Tea.. there are thousands of herb tea better than usual tea... just see... celestialtea.. hehe like the name!

I do enjoy a nice cup of blackcurrent tea. I've tried other fruit teas but my palette is very sensitive.

If you get babtised and find out the Church was not true... well it is true so it wont happen!

One of the main things that bothers me about baptism, is the idea about wearing white clothes - especially the white socks.

Ok that was a bit ... If you find it wrong, you can resign, unlike fex Lutheran Church whose babtisement can not be wiped off.

Why not? What if the lutherans are wrong? then the baptism means nothing.

So why am I worried about joining the church in case I don't believe it? I did say earlier I was worried about "rejecting" the gospel. Which suggests at some level, I do believe it.

So maybe Im unsure if I can accept it? About whether I'll have the strength to follow it.

Cheers

Simon

[Maya]

I agree about alkohol it brings the devil that is in us out...if there is one... I had a frend she was afraid to go home when her dad was drinking. There are a lot of people that just can not go without a drink, alkohol or caffe or tea... it is also the dependance that is harmful.

About accepting the gospel and having strength to follow it. I feel you are a very serious and good person. You need to know that you succeed before you do anything... Like my youngest son...he would NOT try to bike without side wheels.. he would sit hours and watch everyone else cycle. Then one day he tok his bike and ... off he went!

You know Stanans plan he would make it so easy for us to getback, no one could fail. But then we wouldnot have our own will. What would God to with willess people, puppets? He needs a strong people!

Ok with our own will we are bound to fail. But that is why our dear brother, our saviour, came to world and He tok all or fails and trespasses on Him and atoned us. Maybe you need to understand this atonement principle better to feel safe. To believe it is enough that it may happen. To agnolege our sins is a step even closer. To pray for forgiveness we are almost there. To stop the sin never to do it again just a little bit more to go. To pay back, to ask forgiveness from those we have been doing wrong to, the engles are rejoysing. And to the topp, do good, help to those in need, give your time to the Church. So even though we are week we can be strong through atomenet!

The ONLY thing that withraws from us the atonement is sin against the Holy Gost and that is something only some really bad, bitter people can draw upon them selves. Those whos knees dont bent even though they know they should... it just dont sound like you... Maybe you wont be the best, but you can be the best YOU you can be, and that is the only thing God expects from you!

Besides there are many who will help you along.... think about the fruits...

I almost become an orthodox once... it was mostly because of the beautifulness of the service and Churches. In my teens the Pentecostal was close to my heart... but too hypnotic for me. I am glad I waited for the missionaries, I had a feeling there was something more... It is a real joy to be with to build Gods Kingdom on earth.

Good hunting!

[WillowTheWhisp]

So why am I worried about joining the church in case I don't believe it? I did say earlier I was worried about "rejecting" the gospel. Which suggests at some level, I do believe it.

If it's right and you accept it you'll be in the right place.

If you accept it and later find out that it's wrong you can just reject it because if it is wrong then rejecting it won't matter because any penalties for rejecting the truth don't count if it isn't true.

If you are worried about rejecting it you must believe that it is true or you wouldn't need to worry.

Therefore if you believe it is true then you must know that if you accept it you will be doing the right thing.

Yes, those confirmation feelings come from God.

[ctr_tanc]

I worry about everything, and I do worry about making mistakes. I worry about giving up alcohol, or tea and coffee, giving up sunday mornings, paying 10% of my income to a church - when I can't be sure its correct.

I worry about being baptised into what could be a false church. A lot of churches are convinced that they are the one. If I join one, and its wrong, aren't I distancing myself from God and Christ? Every church are convinced they are doing good, therefore they are of God.

sjdean, it's hard to change your lifestyle and the Lord knows that. You're not expected to do it all at once or to do it all on your own without encouragement, or witnesses along the way.

One thing that the Lord promises us is that we will always have the chance to choose. The Lord will never force us to do anything. Faith is not blind, it never is. Faith is always based on some solid, literal evidence that we've been given previously. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1 emphasis added).

There's an amazing section in the Book of Mormon where the prophet Alma teaches about faith in Alma 32:21-43. I would encourage you to read it once before continuing.

In that section he says that "faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true." (Alma 32:21 emphasis added) So when we have faith, we have it in things that are true.

James 2:20 says that "faith without works is dead" which teaches us that we must act on our faith in order for it to survive.

So with that we have three basic principles of faith: (1)It is based on solid substance, or evidence, (2) it is not a perfect knowledge and (3)it is a principle of action.

So now let us apply that to your situation (or what I understand of it).

You state that you are worried about giving up certain things (coffee, tea, alcohol, sunday time, 10% of your income, etc...) well sjdean, you're not required to give them up all at once. You're not required to do it in a week or a month or whatever. The important thing to know is that you are required to do those things. How you do them and how quickly you do them is up to you. You work at your own pace and work with the help of the Lord. I would suggest that you pick one thing, any of those principles, to test out. It could be the one that you are most worried about or one that makes sense to you. Practice living that principle for one week (if you choose Sunday time I would suggest doing it for two Sundays at least). Nobody ever died because they didn't drink alcohol for a week or didn't have their morning cup of coffee each day for a week.

You've stated that you're somewhat drawn to this faith. Well, there's your beginning evidence. Obviously something about the LDS faith has caught your attention and something tells you inside that this is worth your time. You may not know it, but that is the Spirit. It is testifying to you of the truth of this gospel and is gently encouraging you to test just a little more. This is your evidence to base your faith on. There's the first principle. You don't know for sure if this is true or not, but it could be. There's the second principle. Now the third principle. I talked about that in my first post to you and I've already challenged you to test one principle.

Your actions and your experiment on that principle will produce results. You can then look at the "fruits" of your labors and determine if they are good. If they are good, then you have been given more evidence on which to base your faith and actions. If the "fruit" is not good, then you know that it's not true. "Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away." (Alma 32:32 where Alma compares the word of God to a seed)

I encourage you to read Alma 32:21-43 through one more time. It's one of my favorite passages of scripture and outlines the principle of faith wonderfully!

[sjdean]

Thanks all again for your replies. I'm still thinking about this and working out where my feelings, thoughts and beliefs lie. As I said previously, Im worried about learning the gospel in case I feel its untrue and I reject it which according to the Mormon faith is really bad.

Willow has been able to see through my somewhat bizarre writings and got to the core in understanding where I come from, in that my statement above shows that there is some part of me that believes in the church.

So why aren't I willing to go forward?

I think it is all the life style changes required.

While I know that I could give up tea, coffee and alcohol in a flash tomorrow, there's some part of me that's screaming out saying I don't want to make those changes unless I can be absolutely certainly convinced in my mind that the church is 100% definitely true.

[Guest tomk]

Thanks all again for your replies. I'm still thinking about this and working out where my feelings, thoughts and beliefs lie. As I said previously, Im worried about learning the gospel in case I feel its untrue and I reject it which according to the Mormon faith is really bad.

Willow has been able to see through my somewhat bizarre writings and got to the core in understanding where I come from, in that my statement above shows that there is some part of me that believes in the church.

So why aren't I willing to go forward?

I think it is all the life style changes required.

While I know that I could give up tea, coffee and alcohol in a flash tomorrow, there's some part of me that's screaming out saying I don't want to make those changes unless I can be absolutely certainly convinced in my mind that the church is 100% definitely true.

You don't have to change it all in one day.

Start with a foundational belief in Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and work from there. Trust that their grace is sufficient. If they can keep this world in its orbit around the sun, certainly they can help you give up tea or coffee or alcohol. This is an exciting opportunity to develop a close relationship with your Savior. Let Him save you!

Love,

Tom

[Brother Dorsey]

Thanks all again for your replies. I'm still thinking about this and working out where my feelings, thoughts and beliefs lie. As I said previously, Im worried about learning the gospel in case I feel its untrue and I reject it which according to the Mormon faith is really bad.

Willow has been able to see through my somewhat bizarre writings and got to the core in understanding where I come from, in that my statement above shows that there is some part of me that believes in the church.

So why aren't I willing to go forward?

I think it is all the life style changes required.

While I know that I could give up tea, coffee and alcohol in a flash tomorrow, there's some part of me that's screaming out saying I don't want to make those changes unless I can be absolutely certainly convinced in my mind that the church is 100% definitely true.

sjdean,

I've read the thread and felt I had to throw in my 4 cents (inflation).

I think you need to learn more about the Gospel, learn more about the church doctrine and canon. You can't and never will be able to make a decision whether or not the church is true without even knowing the basics which are taught by the missionaries. Invite them back, finish the lessons, ask questions (lots of them) and pray and ask the Father. I know you will see that everything taught will fit nicely together like a giant puzzle. You will come to know that it is the true church.

You stated that you were afraid to know more because what if you rejected the the true Gospel....I say I've known many many people who have taken all the missionary discussions more than once, been to church and learned even more of the Gospel in Gospel principles classes and still took years before they entered the waters of Baptism. They were not rejecting the true Gospel during this time....they were searching for it...as you are now. You can't reject something you know little about AND you have to have it first before you can reject it.

Look closely at these to scriptures:

2 Peter 2: 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2 Nephi. 31: 14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

The Lord was talking about those who accepted the Gospel, became members, partook of all the ordinances and covenants of the Temple and then rejected the Gospel in it's entirety. Have no fear you are merely searching for the truth as we all are.

Regarding the "lifestyle" changes....to some it can be an easy thing, to others it's hard...either way just making and effort to live up to the standards of the Lord rather than the standards of the world is righteous in His eyes.

Godspeed on your journey.......

[lilered]

SJDean - One way to look at it is - Satan does not want you or anyone to learn about God or Jesus or be baptized etc.. He desires to keep souls in the dark and far from the light and truth. Many of the forum members can testify of this principle.

So, the more you learn and understand about God & Jesus and the church,the closer you come to the light of Christ. This phenomenon may be what you are feeling at times.

[ctr_tanc]

sjdean,

I don't know how I can or we can stress this enough. You won't be 100% sure of any of this UNTIL you test something. You can hypothesize and think about it all as much as you want, but "by their fruits ye shall know them" and you can't have fruit until you plant some seeds and that takes some sort of ACTION. Your action doesn't have to be big. I challenge you again to pick some principle of the LDS faith and live it for a week. If by the end of that week you see good results, you will KNOW 100% without a doubt that THAT principle is true. Then test another principle, then another, then another. Slowly but surely you will build up a reservoir of experiences and principles that you KNOW are true. Then, since all other teachings in the gospel are based off of those, you'll know that the gospel is true. You'll know without a doubt, 100%.

sjdean, be willing to let the DESIRE to know grow within you and lead you towards ACTION. Alma 32:21-43

[sjdean]

I challenge you again to pick some principle of the LDS faith and live it for a week. If by the end of that week you see good results, you will KNOW 100% without a doubt that THAT principle is true.

Thanks again ctr

Besides the lifestyle changes (alcohol, tea, coffee), are there any other principles I can follow? Perhaps start off small? Take small steps? Do any of the principles include going to church?

Thanks

Simon

[Hemidakota]

Prayer and reading the scriptures. Make the prayers meaningful and sincere.

[Jenamarie]

Hi sjdean! I've been reading this thread with interest the past few days, and finally decided to start posting.

Prayer and reading the scriptures. Make the prayers meaningful and sincere.

And I think these two principles would be a great place to start. Scripture study and prayer are how we communicate with the Lord (us to Him through prayer, Him to us through Scripture and a Witness of the Spirit). Perhaps once you've started opening up those lines of communication, the difficulties you're having facing the lifestyle changes will be made easier for you. :)

[Hemidakota]

Jena, wanted to public thankyou for a 'woman's scourn' on another thread. Some of us males, need to be put in our place every so often. Even my beloved companion said the same.

Thanks again. :)

[Jenamarie]

Glad to be of service.