Bruce R. McConkie & Apostasy

[THIRDpersonviewer]

One thing that we all must remember was Elder McConkie's understanding, vastly, outstretches most members of the Church. With that in mind, his definition of "lusts of the flesh" is more encompassing than most people.

I feel that most people will associate this with immorality. While that is true, there is more to it. My first post was actually a defense of his Church of the Devil stance, if you remember. With that I explained the difference in meanings and how one word will not always be set to mean "one" thing. Same principle. "lust of the flesh" does not mean only immorality, but ungodliness.

What is ungodliness? It is obviously all things contrary to godliness, or to God's Laws. One of God's Law's is to Keep the Sabbath Day Holy. Part of that is going to Church, partaking of the Sacrament, and so on. The Sabbath is a time to devote wholly and completely to the Lord.

Anytime, I feel I am breaking the Law, I am following my own lusts and desires.

[WillowTheWhisp]

So does that also cover a feeling of not being worthy to be part of it? Is that a lust of the flesh?

[HiJolly]

So does that also cover a feeling of not being worthy to be part of it? Is that a lust of the flesh?

Is that a trick question? j/k, sort of.

My view is that 80% or more of the sisters seemed to always feel unworthy, and most of them were in error on that. I remember a sister I was interviewing for a temple recommend, felt that she was not worthy because her non-member husband was not paying a full tithe. I wish these sisters would understand how detrimental that sort of thing is to their spiritual development.

I signed her recommend, but never did know if she believed me when I told her that she was worthy (depending on the rest of the questions, of course).

HiJolly

[THIRDpersonviewer]

Yes. Ultimately, anything that is not of God is a lust of the flesh. All men have them. We all strive to eliminate them. Those feelings of unworthiness come from the devil, whether they are a temptation or a cause. Sometimes the temptation just seems overwhelming so we just submit. This is where the Gospel becomes a strength. When you know the truth, you can just cast it aside. You don't have to remain subject to the devil. It justs takes faith in the Atonement.

[Misshalfway]

I don't know if this has anything to do with anything but I have been reading a lot about the ego in self help books and what not. And the ego or anything that comes from the ego is really not who we really are. I wonder if becoming offended or impatient or selfish is part of what the quote was referring to. I guess I equate the ego with the natural man. It really isn't who we are. We are spirit have a physical experience and learning how master the flesh. I think that staying the course in the church in spite of all the variety of circumstances and feelings and temptations in our lives and world is a feat in and of itself. I think that perhaps we need our mistakes... our little apostasies big or small to help us understand and learn what voice to listen to then to master ourselves. It is almost as if we have to learn to stand outside of ourselves....outside of our fear, or offense, or pride or immaturity and parent them with faith and other Godly virtues.

[Misshalfway]

Is that a trick question? j/k, sort of.

My view is that 80% or more of the sisters seemed to always feel unworthy, and most of them were in error on that. I remember a sister I was interviewing for a temple recommend, felt that she was not worthy because her non-member husband was not paying a full tithe. I wish these sisters would understand how detrimental that sort of thing is to their spiritual development.

I signed her recommend, but never did know if she believed me when I told her that she was worthy (depending on the rest of the questions, of course).

HiJolly

I think this is church wide problem. I think it is a tool of the adversary to bring us down. It is shame and unworthiness that is absolutely anti-christian. Our families and our parents....and sadly misdirected church leaders and teachers have helped us to develop these habits of thought. I don't know how many saints I have met in my life that didn't know how to make a mistake. That couldn't allow anyone to see them make one. I think we are so very hard on ourselves. And I think we need to learn our own doctrine and apply it a little better in our thought processes. I think we are sometimes very judgmental of each other. Which of course is always a reflection of how we judge ourselves. I think we can and need to do better in this area and remember what the good news is all about!

[sgallan]

All men have them.

In my experience more than just a couple of women have them as well.

[sgallan]

My view is that 80% or more of the sisters seemed to always feel unworthy

On a more practical note, I can tell you for a fact that my then convert wife NEVER felt "worthy". It is a non-issue now, she is bi-polar and brain damaged due to drug abuse, but that was her experience then. Given she already had "issues" going back a lifetime, this phenomina - while not the causation for later problems - obviously didn't help much either.

[WillowTheWhisp]

In my experience it's hard for a new member to feel worthy when all around them they see what looks like the images of perfection and no-one ever owns up to having struggles and problems as these things are 'not to be talked about' because they are 'not uplifting'. All the 'uplifting' imagery which is presented of such a hunky dory LDS life when compared to the struggle and difficulties the new member may be having only serve to have a negative effect in leaving the new person feeling less worthy.

It's not possible to become an instant Latter-day Saint and we often forget that the new members are delicate new shoots which need to be fed and watered. The scriptures tell us that we are not expected to run before we have learned to walk and yet we are often given the impression that not only should we be running but we should be wining an Olympic marathon.

My late husband used to say if we were as perfect as we are made out to be we wouldn't be here we'd be with Enoch.

This is an ongoing thing in Relief Society - more so in the 'olden days' when we used to have all those lessons about cultural appreciation and being a perfect wife and mother. No-one dared admit they didn't iron every last item of clothing or dust every inch of the house every day. I remember being encouraged to make a timetable which was so exacting it was ludicrous. I almost had to allot myself slots where I was permitted to breathe. It's no wonder a lot of women end up feeling unworthy.

When we finally get around to admitting to each other that we are all struggling it eventually dawns on us that the sister we thought was perfection personified also has her own struggles and she may be looking at us with exactly the same sense of awe.

[rayhale]

Here’s a link to find Doctrinal New Testament Commentary GospeLink.com - The Ultimate LDS Study Library it’s a paid subscription but you can read it and many, many more lds books. Once you subscribe you need to go to http://gospelink.com/library/doc?doc_id=206228 to find the web page where the quote is.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Thank you. I tried that yesterday but was unable to access it. I will try again today.

Meanwhile I came across a thought whilst reading the Book of Mormon. Remember those guys who hadn't been welcome in the synagogues because they were poor and scruffy? Who did the Lord find at fault? Whose sin was it that caused these people to be inactive?

[sixpacktr]

Both. Alma chastised those that kicked them out, and then chastised those that felt sorry for themselves, asking if they thought that the synogogues were the only places they could worship...

[WillowTheWhisp]

How would you compare that to someone who doesn't feel welcome at church but doesn't reject the Gospel and continues to live the LDS lifestyle, read the Book of Mormon and Bible and pray, ask a blessing on their food etc? Are they not doing what Alma said and worshipping in places other than the synagogue?

I really do feel that the onus is on us as long established members not to let any new converts drift off because they feel this way.

[Hemidakota]

Good source Ray...

[THIRDpersonviewer]

How would you compare that to someone who doesn't feel welcome at church but doesn't reject the Gospel and continues to live the LDS lifestyle, read the Book of Mormon and Bible and pray, ask a blessing on their food etc? Are they not doing what Alma said and worshipping in places other than the synagogue?

I really do feel that the onus is on us as long established members not to let any new converts drift off because they feel this way.

I agree and think your right to a point. The gospel teaches people to be self-reliant. Elder Nelson's talk in conference made this point. Salvation is an individual thing. Exaltation is a family affair. The point being individually WE make OUR decisions. Yes, things appear unfriendly. Your decisions DO NOT affect mine, in the sense that I am judged for your transgressions. I will only be judged for me, and for me alone. Forget anything anybody has ever done for me. That will not affect my judgement other than what has been given to me and what have I done with it.

The point with all who leave the Church is this. The core principle is a person has been given the gospel, and has accepted. They have left the neutral ground forever. They will be held accountable for that law that they chose to abide. If they did not abide it, then there will be condemnation if there is no repentance. If they abide it, they will have glory and glory added forever and ever on their heads and have crowned upon them a seal of eternal life.

Willow, I know you left the Church and abided the principles as best you could. And you will most undoubtedly be blessed for it, and have been. However, its what one would call being lukewarm in the gospel, meaning that yes you lived a lot of principles of the gospel but you didn't live ALL of them. The Celestial Kingdom is for those who are tried and tested and found faithful in ALL things. The principle you didn't live was appropriate Sabbath worship, which isn't an issue anymore, however for proper Sabbath worship these are the words from the Spencer W. Kimball teachings book. "A full abundant Sabbath includes attending Church meetings and partaking of the Sacrament.(172)."

All in all it was YOUR decision to stop coming to Church. Yes there were people that were unfriendly and that gave you good reason to stop coming. However, it was still your choice. You did what you felt was best and we should all do so. Just not at the expense of the Lord's Commandments. Yes there are exceptions to situations. There are no exceptions to indoctrinated principles.

I would also like to say, that I am happy you have come back. All things happen for a reason and I would, just as a casual observer, say that maybe that time was needed for you to grow properly and so when you came back you would appreciate the gospel more. I mean no ill will. I just see a doctrinal point that needs to be understood.

[Misshalfway]

I can't believe that the Lord doesn't judge in mercy and infinite understanding. We are the ones who see thru a glass darkly. We see and describe things in such black and white. God sees the whole spectrum.

And in Willow's case, I don't see the Lord judging her in condemnation. I think He truly understood her feelings and needs and then sent the right people to bring her back. God give us lots of chances and opportunities in our growth. He knows how to recognize a need and how to meet that need.

I sometimes think that all we judge is the weakness or the flaw. We get blinded by our justice oriented thinking and stumble over our need to pass judgment instead of looking with loving understanding to see what was needed and how we are to help.

I am reminded of King Benjamin's attitude....Aren't we all beggars???

[THIRDpersonviewer]

I can't believe that the Lord doesn't judge in mercy and infinite understanding. We are the ones who see thru a glass darkly. We see and describe things in such black and white. God sees the whole spectrum.

And in Willow's case, I don't see the Lord judging her in condemnation. I think He truly understood her feelings and needs and then sent the right people to bring her back. God give us lots of chances and opportunities in our growth. He knows how to recognize a need and how to meet that need.

I sometimes think that all we judge is the weakness or the flaw. We get blinded by our justice oriented thinking and stumble over our need to pass judgment instead of looking with loving understanding to see what was needed and how we are to help.

I am reminded of King Benjamin's attitude....Aren't we all beggars???

There are two Laws. Justice and Mercy. I have never said that the Lord doesn't judge in mercy. You're right I am not the judge of anyone but ourselves. However, we can see the judgment of justice. We know the law. We say yes I have broken the Law and thus am subject to it. Yes we are beggars, sinners and transgressors.

I am held under this same bar. I am under condemnation myself for many things, unless I repent. THAT is the Law of justice. We can never satisfy justice. So we are all condemned forever so we cannot return to live with our Heavenly Father.

However, that is why there is the Atonement of Christ. All things are redeemed from their fallen state. Justice is satisfied through Jesus Christ. So the Law we are living for and trying to qualify for is one of Mercy. This mercy is meated out to the pure in heart. The broken heart and the contrite spirit. Why are we justice-oriented? Because that is what we see. We cannot see the mercy. His judgment isn't now. Or rather his Final judgment isn't now. How far the mercy extends we cannot understand. So what is the safest thing to do? Abide the Law of justice as best we can and we know when we have done our best, we will will have qualified for the full blessings of the Atonement. That is why we are the judge of ourselves. It is between us(individually) and the Lord.

I agree with what you have said about willow. The Lord knows when we are ready for things. Being away from Church probably allowed her to grow at her own pace. It allowed her to appreciate the gospel more when she got back. There are probably many other reasons, however I do not know everything, because I am not willow, and I am not the Lord.

However, oftentimes we ourselves cannot see what we are doing. Sometimes I disobey and I don't realize it. That is when someone else points it out. I have been humbled many a time because of something I have done, and didn't realize that offends the Lord. I began saying stuff on this thread because I felt I had something to contribute. I have studied Elder McConkie A LOT. I know often how he feels on certain matters. I know what he means on many occasions. I am bold to say it. By no means does my understanding compare with his, however I know his pattern and custom and that is all I have to follow.

It was pretty apparent that people did not understand what his comment was saying(confusion). I was trying to help understand, of which I am not always clear. I was not trying to offend. I was not trying to harm. I was trying to serve the Lord, and dispense the truth that I knew I had. That I knew, by the Power of the Holy Ghost, was right.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

I sincerely apologize for any offense I may have caused. All things were done with the best of intentions. I just probably did not come across that way. Again, I am sorry.

[WillowTheWhisp]

It was pretty apparent that people did not understand what his comment was saying(confusion).

I'm not sure that I understand it in view of the discussions in the thread. I originally took it to mean what it seems to mean at face value when people refer to lusts of the flesh - greed, promiscuity, self indulgence that kind of thing.

[Hemidakota]

For those who do not understand what Lehi is referring to Lust of the World, here is the article that requires indepth reading:

"Love Not the World" by Elder Bruce R. McConkie.

[KosherXMorg]

I thought I'd throw this quote out from the late Bruce R. McConkie to stimulate discussion on the topic.

This post is not being directed at anyone here or elsewhere.

“The basic cause of apostasy is sin. Men leave the church because they are sensual and carnal. It is not a matter of rejecting gospel doctrine, or preferring a more liberal interpretation, these are excuses. The basic reason for rebellion is a desire to enjoy the lusts of the flesh.” (DNTC 3:426-427)

I can tell you from my experience that this quote is not accurate for all cases. If anything I have become stricter in my lifestyle since leaving the LDS church and I fully expect to continue to become more observant in scriptural/spiritual laws. To say that all people leave so they can enjoy the lusts of the flesh is a broad, unfair generalization.

[skalenfehl]

I can tell you from my experience that this quote is not accurate for all cases...

Perhaps this is why Bruce R. McConkie said "The basic cause..." and not "The only cause..."

Just a thought.

[Guest lauracooke78]

I believe that Bruce is correct in regards to long time members, but maybe not for converts who leave soon after. Converts maybe not understand plain doctrine soon enough coupled with no fellowship. As for long standing members, very very accurate. Absolutey every time that someone I have known of has left the church it has been because of sin, the majority being fornication/adultery. Bruce knows and so do the saints who leave. There are excuses they try to find, but deep down it is sin.

[HiJolly]

I believe that Bruce is correct in regards to long time members, but maybe not for converts who leave soon after. Converts maybe not understand plain doctrine soon enough coupled with no fellowship. As for long standing members, very very accurate. Absolutey every time that someone I have known of has left the church it has been because of sin, the majority being fornication/adultery. Bruce knows and so do the saints who leave. There are excuses they try to find, but deep down it is sin.

I think that specific phrase is very demeaning. When a newly ex-d member says, "I didn't leave the Church, the Church left me!", we know it isn't literal, but it certainly does describe the FEELING the x-member is experiencing, honestly.

Like Margaret Toscano said in her PBS interview, "The Church did violence to me" is not literally true in the physical sense, but is entirely true in the emotional sense. We, as active members, should have enough love in our hearts for these folks to understand their intent, and accept their experience and feelings as such. To be too legalistic and literal is to offend the x-member, 99.9% of the time (in my experience- YMMV).

CAN we love, as the Savior loved? Does it hurt us to understand their pain? Usually, it's just too hard. Christ said "feed my sheep", and I believe His sheep are in AND out of the Church. Is a wandering sheep not a sheep? (I do believe there are those who transition from sheep to goat, but I am not speaking of these folks here).

HiJolly

[KosherXMorg]

I believe that Bruce is correct in regards to long time members, but maybe not for converts who leave soon after. Converts maybe not understand plain doctrine soon enough coupled with no fellowship. As for long standing members, very very accurate. Absolutely every time that someone I have known of has left the church it has been because of sin, the majority being fornication/adultery. Bruce knows and so do the saints who leave. There are excuses they try to find, but deep down it is sin.

I suppose I should be offended, but I stopped being easily offended years ago.

This attitude is typical (and I'm not referring to anyone in particular here) amoung faithful members of any religious order. It helps them to dismiss any lingering doubt deep in their minds that there may be something amiss in their church by judging the "apostate" as a sinner who never had the intestinal fortitude to live the "rules" of their particular order.

*A faithful will Catholic will tell you people leave because of sin

*A faithful Jehovah's Witness will tell you people leave because of sin

*A faithful Seventh-Day Adventist will tell you people leave because of sin

*A faithful Southern Baptist will tell you people leave because of sin

*etc..........