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Showing content with the highest reputation on 05/04/25 in Posts
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Nephi 2: 10 teaches that, “because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him…” Justice takes full sway after the intercession is established. From verse 4, “the way is prepared from the fall of man, and salvation is free.” Jesus’ sacrifice answers the ends of the law (verse 7), not justice; the law is one of mercy and justice (see the verses on opposition in all things), and so the ends of the law include mercy. One end addresses sin, the other end addresses a broken heart and contrite spirit. This is borne out in verse 10, “Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto [A] the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to [B] that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement.” A justice-only scenario denies the principle of opposition. “And if these things are not there is no God.” (verse 13). A justice-only scenario is to say there is no law. For me, the role of agency in this is that God expands our agency between advancing estates. We have more agency now than as premortal spirits as we operate in a temporal/physical world with the eternal/spiritual world as the backdrop to the mortal setting; exalted beings have more agency than we do because they operate in a reconciled temporal/physical and eternal/spiritual world in an immortal setting. The role of the veil in this expansion is that, while we forgot those things we knew and the choices we made in the pre-existence, the ability to choose between good and evil in an “added upon” setting is by definition an expansion. And glory can then be added for ever and ever (Abraham 3: 26). In another thread or post there is talk of transgression and sin. I think this is an example of expanded agency and how we use it for good or evil. The various elements of lesser agency give a person the power to commit transgression (eyes not yet opened). The elements of greater agency give us the power to commit sin (knowing as the gods). The former offers opportunities to gain agency through experience and learning, the latter the curse to lose agency by rejecting the light we have been given. Both ends of the law are ruled by the atonement of Christ, the first being a reflection of mercy and the second a reflection of justice.1 point
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In reality, divine mercy and justice are eternally tightly coupled like unto quantum entanglements. However, I theorize that it is possible that there can be justice without mercy. But it seems to me that there needs to be a third element that we call agency. Once agency is exercised, G-d cannot or will not override the justice of our agency, even with mercy. This is why Lucifer was exiled from the Kingdom of G-d without mercy. We are told that agency is a gift from G-d and is therefore different from our will. I have been unable to reconcile agency as a choice that involves any level of ignorance. The Plan of the Father (the Plan of Salvation and Exaltation) requires that we know, by experience, the fruits of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The Fruit of Evil is death. Both a spiritual death that is a separation from the Father and a physical death that is the inevitable separation of our physical body from our spirit. The Fruit of Good is the opposite of the Fruit of Evil and is experienced through the resurrection uniting eternally our physical body with our spirit and returning to the Father to be in his presents – where our agency will then be completed with the Father (in what is called the final judgment) as we determine our kingdom of resurrection glory to forever be connected to the laws, ordinances and covenants we exercise our agency to live by. I think that our agency was temporarily suspended with a vail of forgetfulness with the fall. Whereby we could, with some uncertainty and ignorance make choices in evil that would inevitability and justly cause death. From the beginning, Jesus was anointed as Christ to redeem all the sins of our probation of uncertainty brought on because of the fall. Jesus knew of all our sins and suffered and sacrificed himself from the beginning will full knowledge of the pain (both spiritually and physically) that justice would demand of him for each and every sin of all mankind. With this complete knowledge he had at the very beginning, he still suffered willingly himself because of his great love for the Father and all his spiritual brothers and sisters. Through the mercy of Christ as directed by the Father, all the demands of justice will be satisfied and redeemed, enabling us to stand spotless and without sin before the Father. If we have repented and turned our focus away from our sins through our agency we will then move forward in the resurrection into that glory of laws, ordinances and covenants that are telestial, terrestrial or Celestial. This is my understanding as I have been given through my efforts to resolve questions that I have had before our G-dhead. Though not all my questions have been resolved. The Traveler1 point
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one hour church?
NeuroTypical reacted to zil2 for a topic
Special stake conferences are usually for changes to ward boundaries within the stake (either combining wards or making a new one), or possibly splitting into two stakes. If you were merging with another stake, it would be a conference for multiple stakes. Anything else seems highly unlikely to me.1 point -
Serving Without A Name Tag?
NeuroTypical reacted to zil2 for a topic
I see no reason to even think about "I never knew you" - first, it's clearly wrong, and second, Joseph Smith said it's supposed to be "ye never knew me". This leaves us with two primary points of focus: 1. The previous verse says they prophesied, cast out devils, and did many "wonderful works" in Christ's name. And yet Christ said they worked "iniquity". The faith-only Christians will wave this away with words about the characters having tried to work and earn their way into heaven and not having faith. But consider "thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain" - it has become common for folks to understand this not only as using God's name as a vulgarity, but also using it as a facade for evil, or using it without authority (that is, without permission, without having been called and ordained / set apart). The verses combined lend support to @Traveler's theory as to what the Lord meant. 2. Continuing with the JST rendering, how do scriptures tell us we come to know Christ? With variations on this theme: Whatever the folks were doing in Matthew 7:22, they weren't doing what Moroni 7:48 describes - this must be the case, or Christ is a liar, and we know Christ isn't a liar. "Ye never knew me" and "I never knew you" and "I never authorized you" (aka "you used my name in vain") all fit with Moroni 7:48 - they didn't pray, weren't filled with charity, weren't true followers of Christ, had not become the sons of God, were not like Him, and did not even see Him as He is (which is why they were like, "but wait, we did all these great things in your name, what do you mean, 'depart'?").1 point -
Serving Without A Name Tag?
JohnsonJones reacted to HaggisShuu for a topic
Looking at the passage: I think it's referring to people who say they believe in Christ but don't practice what he taught. If only those who enter into the kingdom of Heaven are those did the will of the father, surely "I never knew you" means something closer to "I never saw you following the commandments". Somebody may trick themselves into believing they did follow Christ because they didn't truly understand Christ, which is why the JST says "you never knew me." My mind is drawn to Harold Camping, who tried to predict the end of the world twice and managed to drum up quite a bit of international support in the early 2010's. He prophesied in the name of Christ. He's likely done many wonderful works. Likewise, The many mega church phonies like Kenneth Copeland pretend to cast out demons in the name of Christ also. But does Christ know them as his true disciples? I doubt it. This is just my interpretation of course, but given this passage transitions into the parable of the wise foolish house builders. It seems to me a passage about how obedience deepens your relationship with Christ, not something with legitimises authority in the eyes of Christ.1 point -
Because of the Fall
JohnsonJones reacted to Traveler for a topic
I have long held the concept that if we are to only consider what happens to a person between their birth and death there is no way we could come to the conclusion that G-d is just, fair or even merciful or that such principles have any actual possibility. My conclusion is that there is of necessity something before birth and something after death (and before the resurrection) in order for justice or mercy to exist. The Book of Mormon tells us that G-d is both just and true. The Book of Mormon also tells us that all “good things” come from G-d and that if anything is good that it must be that it came from G-d. Since G-d is just, I must assume that justice is always good. The opposite of just is injustice – which I assume to always be bad or evil. The Book of Mormon also add one other concept that I do not see in any other religion. That concept is that in order for there to be mercy – the demands justice must properly be fulfilled first. This logic of the restored LDS theology is marvelous and wonderful – I do not understand why anyone that believes in Christ would not immediately embrace the truth of it. Even if they were not baptized as a Latter-day Saint that they would believe and embrace this principle to be a necessary part of their faith. The Traveler1 point -
Because of the Fall
laronius reacted to JohnsonJones for a topic
I have been thinking on some very similar items recently. I've come to some conclusions. Justice is not fair. Justice is not necessarily good. It's not bad, but it's not good either. Justice can be incredibly unfair. Justice can be incredibly inequal. When people talk about justice, many do not mean that. They do not want justice, they want equality or they want something to be fair. However, there's nothing fair about justice in our lives, or at least sometimes justice is invariably unfair. This is why we MUST have mercy, because without mercy, life would not be fair. Some would have far better chances then others in receiving rewards. A prime example. A man is starving and his children are starving. He has no job because he was fired for no reason. He is willing to work, but no work is to be had. He goes to the grocer even though he has no funds. He steals 1,000 dollars worth of food. He gives it to his children. He then is arrested. He is charged. His children starve to death. He goes to prison for committing a felony. Another man works at the store. He is a manager. He dislikes the man mentioned above. The man above is the hardest worker in the store, but because he is disliked by the manager, he is fired. The manager then decides he wants to steal 1000 dollars from the store. He gets arrested and charged. His father is rich and has connections. With the best lawyer, and tweaking those connections, he gets off with a minimum sentence and fine. The both committed a felony. They both did the crime. Even with equal justice, both should serve a jail time and pay a fine. There are those in society that would say that this is not fair. I would be one that would agree it is not fair. How is it fair that children should die because their father was fired for no reason by a petty man? However, Justice is blind, or should be. Society operates because Justice is applied in this way. It doesn't matter whether you are rich or poor, powerful or not, Justice will be served. In this life we have those born into comfort and wealth. They have every blessing one could desire. They have the blessings of the gospel. Others are born into the most severe poverty. They are tormented by the horrors of this world at every turn. They never receive the gospel. That one goes to the Celestial Kingdom and one does not if they both do not sin, is justice. However, many would say that is not even close to being remotely fair. It's not fair because the situations are not equal. This is why we must have mercy. This is why there needs to be mercy, because this world is inherently unfair, and justice without mercy can be a very unfair thing.1 point -
Ignorance and Faith
Anddenex reacted to JohnsonJones for a topic
Faith can also be seen as believing something that is true. In that same light, if something has not occurred, but you believe it will, and it will occur as you think it will, and then you act upon that belief, then this is faith. A prime example. Your arm is on a desk relaxing. You believe that you can lift your arm up. It has not happened yet, but you have enough experience and reliably feel that you can lift your arm if you wish to. You then lift your arm. You have practiced your faith. You may do this without even thinking about it, and yet, if it has not happened, but you basically know it will, it is still faith, as it is something you believe will happen that has not actually occurred. In this same manner, the Lord can act in faith to make worlds and to enact various ideas that he fashions via his power and authority.1 point -
I think faith (which can be considered foreknowledge) and knowledge (which can be considered confirmed faith) are two aspects of the same thing. Existence is experienced through the application of action and intelligence (the combination being agency) within the sphere that God has placed truth, and a fulness of experience would then be a fullness of truth (D&C 93: 30, 31; 26, 27). All of God's children, whatever sphere in which He has placed them, will have this opportunity, an idea I take from Acts 17: 26, 27. (that last recognizes @Anddenex's comment about haply finding God in the spirit world ).1 point