Jenamarie

A Mormon defending Mormonism isn't incapable of being objective. Certainly B.H. Roberts was willing to be objective in his conjecture about View of the Hebrews. EVERYone has an angle, whether they know it or not, and every defender, or dissenter, for Mormonism ought to be viewed with a large grain of salt.

Mike_uk: Just curious, and please don't take this as accusatory in anyway, I just couldn't tell exactly from your post. :) Have you read the View of the Hebrews book, or just the book comparing it with the BoM?

Okay. A lot of things to address in this. The church has always valued the education of women. Some MEMBERS may not put much emphasis on it, but I grew up hearing "WHEN you go to college" from my parents and leaders, not "if you choose to go to college". My mom worked full-time throughout my childhood, earned her Masters degree when I was 9. Education has always been a huge part of my family, and I feel in the church as well. Some of Brigham Young's wives were very highly educated for women in that day and age. And who's to say that the opportunity to further your education ends after childbirth? Lots of women in my ward are taking college courses while raising their kids. Two of them are in law school! Obviously the conditioning didn't work on them. And I think sometimes we confuse "gaining an education" with "increasing your earning potential". Education can be gained outside of college, and some very mind-broadening lessons won't likely improve your resume, but are invaluable nontheless. As far as the marrage thing, I married my husband after knowing him for only six months. Is that ideal? Probably not for everybody, but it worked well for us. The "proper" length of an engagement is best left up to the couple. And even though I know you didn't mean to, I do take slight offence at your inference that motherhood and childrearing is "not enough". Being a mother is one of the most fulfilling things I've ever done in my life. And you know what? My kids have encouraged me *even more* to further my education! I think of all the things I want them to know before they go off on their own to face the world, and I read books and educate myself so that I can educate *them*. And for your Temple question, I believe it has to do with the man being the "head" of the family. It's all over in the scriptures, and in the Proclamaition, that the father is the head of the family and is mainly (not solely - mainly) responsible for it's well being. I see that carrying over into the Eternities as well. I do not believe that it makes my roll less valuable. I value my womanhood, and the blessings it entails, and thank my Heavenly Father for them. I don't cry fowl that I don't get to hold the Priesthood in this life, as I believe I'll have the blessing of holding it in the next life. Man and Women cannot recieve Exaltation without eachother, and, I believe, cannot do the things Exaltation entails without both working in tandem, using those blessings in joint effort, completely unified.

This is what I'm getting at. Thank you.

Hopefully I can word this as to offend as few people as possible, but I feel strongly that I need to address something. When I first started questioning the church back in November I almost immediately ran into several walls. Whenever I would ask my husband, or someone else I trusted one of the difficult questions about the church, one of these things always happened: 1. They accused me of reading anti literature 2. They accused me of "thinking too much" about a negative story or part of doctrine 3. They accused me of "trying to plant seeds of doubt" 4. They told me my question "didn't matter" or make the gospel untrue 5. They told me to "just pray" and not worry about trying to sort it all out for myself. Nobody tried to actually answer my questions, or address my concerns. If it hadn't been for the deep love I have for my husband, and my desire to look really really deep before I lept out of the church and broke his heart (because I knew I wouldn't want to go to church with him anymore, and he told me he'd be heartbroken to lose the "eternal" part of his marriage to me) I probably would have left within the first few weeks of my questioning. Eventually I found that there *were* answers to my questions out there, but it was without help from anyone within the church. Everyone either brushed me off, or told me to "just pray about it", which was difficult for me to do, when I wasn't even sure at the time who God *was* and didn't know if I was praying to a God who was at the head of a Godhead, or a triune God. My testimony was hanging on a string, and no one seemed willing to offer some of their testimony strings to mine to strengthen me. And now I'm finding much of that same attitude here, and it breaks my heart. In the past month I've seen people who I felt were genuinely searching for answers to the difficult questions they had about the church have their questions left unanswered, while the sourcses and motivations for their questions were attacked. They must have been reading misleading anti-literature. They must be looking for any negative thing they can about the church and willing to believe it over anything positive about the church. They must be here to try to drag down the Testimonies of others. It needs to stop. IT IS 100% POSSIBLE TO HAVE DIFFICULT QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CHURCH AND CHURCH HISTORY WITHOUT READING ONE WORD OF ANTI-LITERATURE! It happened to me. I very very nearly gave up my membership in the church because I was feeling lost, and it seemed like NO ONE in the church was willing to lift me up. I felt like I was having my intelligence questioned as being the cause of that lost state. Please please please be as loving as you can towards those who have difficult questions about the church. If people in the church don't love them hard and work to help them find answers, even if it's just offering to pray for them during their search that they'll be able to find them, then there are plenty of people in other Christian denominations who will give them the love they're craving, and provide them with "answers" to their difficult questions. If people within the church are so unwilling to give answers, where else does the questioner have to go?

I recommended he not let his sister know he knows, because it could potentially shatter the youngest sister's trust in her older sister, and cause her to draw away from her family. Sometimes bringing the family in to "fight" for the sister's well being does just the opposite. Who knows what kind of control this boyfriend has over her. If they try to help her get out of this hole, she may start looking at her boyfriend as a "forbidden fruit" and be even more attracted to him, and want even more to be with him, because "I know what I'm doing! They don't know him like I do! He *loves* me!"

To the original topic: I don't think I'd let your younger sister know that you know. She didn't tell you personally, and she might with hold information from your other sister if she finds out she "told". She NEEDS someone in the family she can trust to confess things to. Maybe you could slip your 19 year old sister some money to buy some condoms to give to your youngest sister? That way she'll at least be partially protected from any of the more dire consequences that can come from having sex at a young age. And also see if your 19 year old would be willing to share the pain and heartache she's liking going through now with her sister, as a kind of "I've been where you are, and this is where I ended up" warning.

I agree with this. I know as a teenager I was terrified of disappointing my parents, and would have avoided confessing anything to the Bishop if I in any way suspected it would get back to them.

The way I see it is: God knows when to make exceptions to the "rules". HE alone knows perfectly when killing is justified and when it is not. He knows when lying to save a life is justified and when it is not. The commandments are for US to follow, because we do not have that perfect knowledge of the "bigger picture", that view of "perfect justice" that God has. It is not up to man to come up to exceptions to the rules, it is up to God to determine when a certain circumstance justifies the "breaking" of a commandment by men (or women), and if we are in tune with His Spirit/are listening to His Prophets (or ARE His Prophet, in Abraham's case) He will let us know when those times are. Just my two cents.

First of all, welcome to the forums!! I really hope you enjoy it here. :) Second of all, and you don't have to give me any more detail than you're comfortable with, but what kind of "slip ups" are we talking about here? Is it something major like caught drinking alcohol, or something minor like using a swear word? I just wonder if you're interpreting their requiprements a bit more strictly than they mean them to be, or if your Bishop is being more strict than he needs to be. (coming from someone who has only a cursory knowledge of the process, so I may be way off)

Ya, if the husband was present for the Sealings, how could it have been "sneaking" for Joseph and Brigham to be Sealed to her and claim her as a wife? Sometimes I think we put too much emphasis on how "perfect" a Prophet has to be. They can't do anything controversial or against what feels "right" to us, or else that must mean they're not really a Prophet. The Lord's Annointed have been doing strange things, and sometimes even screwing up royally, since practically the beginning of time. How many people have lost their Testimony in Joseph because of this story, but still believe the Bible with the examples of King David and Bathsheba (who wasn't a Prophet, but was annointed by the Lord to be King), or Noah getting so smashing drunk that he didn't know it was his own daughters he was sleeping with?

Happy Birthday, eh!

Agreed. I really dislike articles like this. Those who already believe will nod their heads, filling in the blanks, and those who don't already believe will shake their heads and wonder where this "proof" is.

This thread is about Kirby though, not people who sell alcohol or cigarettes as a part of their living. And I'm not judging him, just his actions, and how *I* might have handled it differently. Obviously, I'm not in his shoes, and if he feels the Lord gave him the thumbs-up to take the gig, then that's between him and the Lord. I still reserve the right to express my disappontment, from the limited knowledge I have of the situation, that he would accept a roll in a Miller commercial, when so many LDS youth look up to him, and will likely recognize him in the commercial. In no way am I saying I think his Salvation is at risk or anything like that.

NateHowe addressed the Marriot issue, just a couple of posts above this one.

That's actually pretty catchy.

What is the point of this? Really??

I suppose you could call them Mormon Protestants.

I wasn't born yet.

This reminds me of a joke my dad used to make about Utah accents. People from Utah throw the apple "car" out the "core" window and and go fishing in the "crick".

How funny! I've actually noticed this type of structure within the Scriptures (both BoM and Bible) but had no clue that it was anything "official" (meaning, I thought it was just that person's writing style, or their personal method of making a point), so learning now that it's an ancient Hebrew form of "poetry" doesn't surprise me. And it doesn't surprise me that it appears in the BoM either.

I live in Washington and I love listening to non-natives trying to pronounce Snohomish, Snoqualamie, Issaquah, and Puyallup, among others. Deffinately have some fun names up here! I even lived in Utah for a year, and about the only accent I ever caught was what I termed the "Relief Society" accent, since so many RS presidents I met there had it (including the General RS president!) It's an "accent" where you talk in a high, sweet voice, and do a little tongue click *tst* noise whenever you make a pause.

I think the problem comes from using the word "feelings". It's the most accurate word in the English language to describe what a Witness of the Spirit is for most people, but it falls woefully short of the mark of adequately describing it. It is impossible to describe to anyone who has not felt it, and between two people who have felt it, the most they can do is just nod when the other person tries (and inevitably fails) to completely describe their experience using language. There's no way to describe it. When I "feel" the Spirit I can 100% tell that it is a Divine feeling. It's occuring within me, but it is not *originating* within me. It came from God and touched my heart. I feel enlivened, quickened, peaceful. I imagine you feel much that same way when you're "feasting" on the words of the Bible, right? Would you say it is your wicked heart making you "feel" that way, or the Spirit Testifying to you the truthfulness of the words you are reading?

Um. I'm almost embarassed to ask this, but... who's Ed Decker??

I do stand corrected Kosher. :) I guess since I don't have any regular contact with those other churches (there aren't any congregations that I know of in my general area) I sometimes forget about them. The thing to do then, for someone who is seeking, is to pray about the Book of Mormon, and then pray about the church that presented it to you. :)