Jamie123

This is still going on with no sign of abating. The latest "thing" is that Justin Welby, the Archbishop of Canterbury, should resign because he supported Paula Vennells' application to become Bishop of London. (Paula Vennells, as well as being CEO of the Post Office, was also a part-time minister in the Church of England.)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12967021/Calls-Archbishop-Canterbury-Justin-Welby-resign-links-disgraced-Post-Office-boss-Paula-Vennells-supported-Bishop-London-despite-Horizon-scandal.html
It's an absolute media circus - not because anything has changed, but because someone made a TV drama about it. Not that I'm complaining - for years I've thought it deserved a lot more publicity than it was getting.

This seems to have some similarities with 1 Nephi 8. It might be worth re-reading that chapter and then pondering on if/how it might aid in interpreting/understanding your dream. 

Wow.  That was some dream.  And it really does sound like your brain trying to process and resolve what's going on in your life.  I'm sorry for all the trials you're having with your family.  I cannot imagine how painful it must be.  Jesus Christ is the answer, not Moloch (symbolic or otherwise).  I can't guess at the details of how Christ is the answer in this case, but stay true to him and let him guide you.  E-hugs, Jamie.

What a disaster! Its so sad that it takes years of work, high personal risk and lots of dollars to overcome injustice.
Here in Australia. we're developing a good history of class actions being effectively used by large combinations of little people to successfully hold large and powerful organisations to account. The scary thing is that in the early/middle parts of last year, a number of politicians began talking about the evils of class actions and how there needed to be new legislation controlling/limiting the conditions under which a class action could be run. I haven't heard much more since then, but I find it worrying that politicians who are supposed to be the people's representatives have been talking about finding ways to limit one of the very few means that people have to have their voices effectively heard and to lessen the power imbalance. 

Like I say, we don't know that it's true, but I can well imagine a narrative in which it might be true.
The Post Office puts out its invitation to tender, and several companies, including Fujitsu UK, decide to respond
Now there's a very high-up and ultra-ambitious "suit" in Fujitsu UK who I'll call Mr. Big Suit. (Maybe its a Ms. Big Suit, but I've a gut feeling it was a Mr.) Mr. Big Suit got promoted to where he is not by being particularly clever or competent (which he isn't) but because of a ruthless determination to get things done. He's a "mover and a shaker", and as such has often come in useful to his superiors.
Mr. Big Suit is determined to get the contact, and he will get the contact whatever it takes! 
He knows that with a brand name like Fujitsu behind him, he doesn't have to prove he can deliver the goods. But he does need to undercut the competition. So he instructs his underlings - his department heads - (with a variety of threats and promises) to quote the lowest price possible for each aspect of the project. He tells them that the quote needs to be low, and if he loses this contract because it's too high, he will not be pleased. At all. 
So Mr. Big Suit's underlings give him what he wants and Fujitsu wins the contract. They now need to deliver. They soon find that with the budget they have for this project, they can't afford to employ their best developers on it. So they put together a rag-tag team of assorted people whose salaries they can afford to pay. This rag-tag team does its best, and after a year or so has created a sort-of system which sort-of does the job, and sort-of doesn't. Mr. Big Suit now fears he's heading for a train wreck, so to cut his losses he finally does send in some of his top developers.
The top developers take one look at what the rag-tag team have created and throw up their hands in dismay. "This needs to be rewritten from scratch" they say.
"We haven't the time nor the money for that," says Mr. Big Suit. "What do you think I pay you for? Make it work. Or else!"
So the top developers do their best, but the deadline is looming and new bugs are still popping up like weeds. Their complaints to Mr. Big Suit fall on deaf ears. He has a deadline to meet, and if he doesn't meet it then some Mr. Even Bigger Suit at Head Office will have his hide.
So the top developers battle on. The discovery of bugs slows down, but as the clock strikes twelve no one really believes that they have all been found, but...
"Hey, we don't know that there are any more bugs. Maybe the one we found and corrected earlier this morning was the last!"
The system is delivered on time. Mr. Big Suit gets his bonus. Phew.
Then the problems start.
Postmasters across the country are reporting accounting errors. Fujitsu is consulted.
The news comes to Mr. Big Suit as he sits on the shaded balcony of his office overlooking an ornamental garden. For some months he's experienced a deeply-suppressed dread of this moment, and now it's finally come. But what can he do? Admit that he's made a complete dog's dinner of the entire project? What will that do for the Fujitsu brand name? Share prices will plummet! Thousands of jobs will be put at risk! It will be ALL his fault, and Mr. Even Bigger Suit will skin him alive!
He puts down his Martini (which no longer tastes so good) and thinks hard.
"Well, I did employ my best people," he says. "Only at the end mind you, but there's no need to stress that too much. And what were they doing for those last six months? They were testing! They were looking for bugs!" (Mr. Big Suit isn't exactly sure what a "bug" is, though he has vague a mental image of a beetle crawling around inside a computer chip, eating bits of wire here and there.) "That's what I'll tell them!"
Presently Mr. Big Suit (Fujitsu) sends his reply to Mr. Big Suit (Post Office). "Horizon has been subjected to six months of intensive testing by Fujitsu's top engineers, and we are confident in the product we have supplied." The first statement is 100% true, and the second is only a white lie. After all, who knows if the problems the Post Office is having are any fault of Fujitsu? Perhaps people aren't using it correctly. Perhaps...oh, perhaps anything! We really don't know. Let's play another game of golf and try not to think about it too much.
Meanwhile Mr. Big Suit (Post Office) is at a total loss. The figures are right in front of him in black and white. Money has gone missing. Fujitsu has assured him that they are not to blame. And they are Fujitsu after all. If its anything to do with computers they should know!
So what else could be the explanation? The famous words of Sherlock Holmes drift across his mind...
"Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however unlikely, must be the truth!"
The rest is history.

(I just posted this as a round-robin e-mail at work, but some of you guys may be interested too)
This article is actually over a month old, but I only read it yesterday after web-searching about this week’s news of the Post Office/Fujitsu/Horizon appeals.
https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252496560/Fujitsu-bosses-knew-about-Post-Office-Horizon-IT-flaws-says-insider
(Just in case you’re unfamiliar with the story, about 20 years ago Fujitsu was commissioned to develop an IT system for the British Post Office. This was called “Horizon”. Shortly after it was installed, money started disappearing from branch accounts. Fujitsu insisted there was nothing wrong with their system, so the Post Office concluded that its own employees were stealing. Almost 1,000 were sacked, made bankrupt by repaying the money, or even sent to prison. Now it turns out the system was full of bugs, convictions are being overturned, and the Post Office is asking for a government bail-out to pay all the compensation that’s going to be claimed. Furthermore, Fujitsu executives who testified of the infallibility of their system are now likely to be prosecuted for perjury.) 
The “insider information” in this article could be the disgruntled ramblings of an angry ex-employee, so hopefully the government inquiry will get to the real truth of the matter. Nevertheless, I think there are some important lessons here that we should pass on to students:
The importance of formal methods in the high-level planning of a project, particularly a large project involving a large number of coders. Each developer should know exactly what his/her component of the system should do, and what it should not be allowed to do. The importance of robust testing. Make sure each component of a system works correctly in isolation before connecting it to other components written by other developers. (This is what I was taught as a 1st year undergraduate learning Pascal. We always had to show evidence that each sub-program we wrote had been tested individually.) The importance of continued vigilance. Even with the best formal methods and the best testing, there WILL still be bugs. It is NOT more likely that 900 previously honest postal employees suddenly turned criminal, than that there may be a bug in a system someone has told you is infallible. (And this applies even if that "someone" represents a big-brand name like Fujitsu.) Happy Easter.

Yes Zil that sounds good. There is a lot in the Book of Bormon, and my head is still spinning with a lot of it. It would be good to go back to the beginning again.

What do you think, everyone?  Should we repeat the Book of Mormon group reading and discussion, but at a slower pace, following the Come, Follow Me schedule?  Participation would be easier this year, since everyone is reading it for Sunday School (right?  you're reading it?  yes?).   @Jamie123 could be a Book of Mormon pro by the end of the year! His neighbors will be wondering what that strange flag is that he's flying...

 
(Just teasing, Jamie. No harm meant.)

I've been aware of this for nearly 3 years now. My first post about it was here:
Most people in the UK are only learning about it now, thanks to the fact that they made a TV drama about it. Some people are telling me they were in tears watching it.
It's caused such outrage that the government is now promising to overturn all remaining convictions en masse. (And remember the judicial branch of government are supposed to be independent of the executive branch - we have that in common with the US.) I often think the media has far too much power, but its refreshing to see that power used to champion the underdog for a change.

One of the guys on YouTube that posts about the last days hypothesized that he will be one of the two prophets to be killed in Jerusalem after holding back the armies in Armageddon. That would seem to meet the criteria. He thought maybe Elijah was the other but was less convincing on that one.

Sorry I've not responded for a while. I mainly wanted to thank everyone who took part in this, especially @zil2 for organizing the schedule. Here are a few general comments - I will no doubt think of more in the days to come:
Firstly, everyone in the Book of Mormon (with the one exception of the Jaredites, who are not part of the main narrative) is ethnically Jewish. The Gentiles are mentioned often, but no one beyond Nephi's generation would ever have met an actual Gentile. Contrast this with the New Testament, where there was a huge debate about whether followers of Christ needed to become Jews. This is a question we never think about these days, which gives some traction to the argument that the Book of Mormon was written for our current age.
Secondly, I mentioned before that the Book of Mormon has nothing like the violence of the Old Testament. Of course, I was referring to the portion of the book we had covered up to that point. When you consider the wars in which the Nephites and the Jaredites were exterminated, maybe that is not quite true. But I still think it lacks the sheer bloodyness of (particularly) the book of Joshua where God commands the Israelites to put entire cities to the sword - including children. 
Thirdly (I daresay some people will want to scorch me for saying this) the Book of Ether links with the account of the Tower of Babel from Genesis. The early parts of Genesis are difficult to take literally in the light of what we now know about anthropology, geology and astronomy. (Though Ken Ham and the "Answers in Genesis" people would claim otherwise.) I have always regarded the Creation, the Fall, the Flood and the Tower of Babel as "myths" - not in the negative sense of being "untrue", but in the sense that they express genuine truths symbolically, and still being inspired by God. The Tower of Babel story is a "myth" to symbolise the way human languages have diverged - and to underline that this has happened in line with God's plan. But I don't necessarily see this as a problem. Perhaps the Jaredite nation did inherit the Babel myth from the same source as the Israelites' ancestors and take it with them to the New World. And if the Bible contains divinely inspired mythology, why not the Book of Mormon too?
I will no doubt think of more things to add in the days to come. Thanks again to everyone who contributed to this exercise. It has been immensely illuminating for me, and I hope everyone else has gained from it too.

Yep, still instinctively coming here to start a new post for my morning scripture study...  Apparently it only takes 4 months to form muscle memory.

I thought my big mouth and I could stay away, but I was wrong. @pam owes me an "I told you so". I blame @prisonchaplain. I saw that he'd returned and got excited. This place is mentally exhausting at times, so I'll probably not be very active moving forward, but you're stuck with me a while longer. 😘
-Godless

If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.
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Complete with a free working Liahona! (Batteries not included.)

Complete with a free working Liahona! (Batteries not included.)

Context suggests it was written well before that last battle.  I suspect the letter was exchanged and read before Mormon died, and Moroni, rereading it after everyone else was dead (because, you know, lonely), decided it was worthy of inclusion on the plates.  (Poor Moroni - he must have been so lonely.)  But heaven knows.
Mormon's work was in his day.  Moroni was the angel of the restoration.  Whatever the reason, Moroni was chosen to represent the Book of Mormon peoples and aid in the restoration.  Perhaps he was the last key-holder from the Book of Mormon.  Or perhaps that was just the calling to which he was foreordained.  Whatever the case, we may be assured that this was the Lord's decision and therefore the right one.
From the verse @Jamie123 mentioned, we have in the footnotes, Leviticus 26:29 and Jeremiah 19:9.  Elsewhere, we have Lamentations 2:20 and 4:10, and Ezekiel 5:10.  Also, 2 Kings 6:28-29 and Micah 3:1-4 (might be figurative, but the idea had to come from somewhere).  Some suggest that people sacrificed to idols were generally also eaten after begin cooked (burnt).

Indeed there is. Its been too long since I read the Old Testament. My goal is to read it all in 2024
Deuteronomy 28:53
t53 And thou shalt aeat the fruit of thine own body, the bflesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the Lord thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the cstraitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:

I can't quote chapter and verse, but isn't there something somewhere about people in beseiged cities "feeding upon the fruit of the womb"?
P.S. I found it - Deuteronomy 28:53.

Moroni 7 (Moroni's recounting of Mormon's teachings to the people of the church)
v2: When you are called, remember who it is that called you.  Be humble and grateful.
v3: If you follow Christ, you will strive to be "peaceable" and obtain hope.  In Mormon's day, this must have defined the followers as there was so much wickedness and violence that only those with a firm hope could have followed Christ.
v5-21: @askandanswer has demonstrated the difficulty of defining and judging what constitutes good and evil.  Mormon's words, "by their works ye shall know them", and using the third person: "a man" and "him" and "he", sure sound like "here's how to tell whether another person is good or evil".  But he goes on to speak about how God will judge the described actions and their motivations.  So perhaps Mormon is instructing people in what to do and not do to be judged righteous by God.
Whatever he intended, we cannot judge another's intent (unless they (or the Spirit) tell(s) it), so when I read these things, I read from the perspective not of how to judge what anyone else is doing (or at least, not to condemn or unrighteously judge), but how to know what I should do.  To that end (in the following, "thing" might be an object, person, event, thought, emotion, behavior, etc.):
When you do what is right (e.g. offer a gift, pray), do it with "real intent". Don't begrudge the gift you intend to give (figure out how to change your heart so that you don't covet your own possessions, so that you can truly be generous). Pray with real intent - the only meaning I can think of for this is "pray with the intent to act in harmony with whatever answer God gives you".  This is harder than it sounds.  It requires serious humility. Follow Christ. If something comes from God, choose to receive it as good (even if you don't like it or don't want to - reject the natural man reaction and force yourself to accept it as good). If something comes from Satan, no matter how appealing, reject it as evil. If a thing encourages me to do as Christ did (good), or to love and serve God, it's good.  If it discourages me from following Christ, it's bad. Rely on the Spirit of Christ (what some call your conscience) to teach good from evil. By choosing good, one's perception of this guidance is ever honed and refined so that what you thought good as a child is no longer good enough as an adult, etc.  I have personally experienced this.  There are things that my younger self thought acceptable that my older self cannot accept - they are not good enough. If it encourages me to believe in Christ, it's good.  If it discourages that belief, it's bad. If it discourages me from serving God, it's of the devil.  Lots of things discourage me from serving God.  And I think things can flip - if I want to stay home from Sunday meetings, or ministering, or whatever good work so I can go fountain pen shopping, (my attitude and behavior toward) those pens have become evil.  But if I use them to take notes in Church, to write a thank you card, or encouraging letter, now they are helping me to serve God and are good.  If a thing cannot be used to serve God, it may well be something that should be removed from your life. Beware of the phrase, "there's nothing wrong with" - if the best you can say about a thing or behavior is that there's nothing wrong with it - if you can't say, "here is what's right / good with" it - then maybe it's not worthy. Invite the light of Christ into my life.  Move ever into it, never away from it.  Enhance my tolerance for that light (the natural man hates this light).  Strengthen my ability to be in that light. Diligent effort is required to search, by the light of Christ, for what is good or evil - it's not obvious! (v19) We must work for it.  And when we see a good thing, "lay hold upon" it!  (If we don't, we will lose our perception or sensitivity to the light.) Faith is required to lay hold upon good things! (v21) (Remember, in the preceding, "thing" might be an object, person, event, thought, emotion, behavior, etc.)
Judging good and evil is not an on-off switch.  It is a gift and a skill we develop as we search in the light of Christ (hard to search for things in the dark).  As we choose good and reject evil, our ability to distinguish between them will increase and we will increasingly choose better and then best.  (Or worse and worst, I suppose, but don't go that way!)  And while good and bad are in fact absolutes (God and nothing of God), during mortality, the choices for every person are relative to where they are and what they know at that moment.  If you consistently choose the better option before you, you will become better and perceive better options than you previously knew existed until you are righteous.  If you consistently choose the worse option before you, you will become worse and perceive worse options than you previously knew existed until you are downright evil.  Chose the better and best options - seek for them, ask for the ability to discern them.
v21: We're gonna talk about faith now.
v22-23: The foundation of faith is that God knows all, and that "in Christ there should come every good thing", and that God has sent angels and prophets to teach these things.
v24: After the fall, no good thing could come, except for Christ.  IMO, pondering on this could help to define "good" and teach how to discern "good".  At least in part, and perhaps as a beginning: the fall separated us from God.  Christ offers a way for us to return to God.  Thus, that which separates us from God is bad.  That which brings us back to God is good.
Mormon is clearly talking about the ultimate good here.  Not: "cake and ice cream - good, Brussels sprouts - bad" (or vice versa, ), nor "new car - good, broken car - bad", nor "healthy - good, have the flu - bad".  But rather: "separated from God - bad, with God - good".
Thus, we could define our measuring as: does this bring me closer to God or does it keep me separated from God?
v25: We exercise our faith in Christ by living as God has instructed - keeping commandments and covenants.  This is how we "lay hold upon every good thing" - now "good thing" starts to be more specific.
v26: And now we learn what to pray for - that which is good, that which God has spoken, that which will bring us back to God - but we must have faith, believing that we can in fact be brought back to God.
v27: Interesting that it now goes straight to miracles with no apparent transition.  Receiving the things prayed for in v26 is perhaps the miracle addressed in v27.
"...to claim of the Father his rights of mercy which he hath upon the children of men" - The Atonement is what allowed Christ to claim these rights.  The Atonement isn't what helps you and I, Christ is.
v28: Have faith in Christ so that he will claim you as his - and have mercy on you.  If you have faith in Christ, you will "cleave" to good things (that which brings you back to God, which is Christ, his gospel, ordinances, and covenants).
v30: Strengthen your faith and firm your mind.  "in every form of godliness" - in other words, in the covenants of the temple!
v31: The work of angels is to call people to repentance and the work of covenants.  It occurs to me that this includes the covenants we make in the temple - the Father makes promises to us as well as we to him, and angels minister "to do the work of the covenants of the Father".
Bear testimony of Christ!
v32: Share the gospel with "the residue of men", so that they can have faith in Christ!
v33: Faith in Christ gives you power to do Christ's will (not some arbitrary thing, not what you want, what Christ wills).
v35+: If miracles and ministering angels and the Holy Ghost are missing from your life, repent, come unto Christ, and exercise faith in him.
v39: Those with faith in Christ will be meek.
v40+: Faith and hope feed one another.  Faith in Christ, hope for the blessings Christ promises.
v43: Meekness and lowliness of heart required for faith and hope (after all, you're trusting Christ for everything - no room for pride here).
v44+: We need the gift of Charity.  Plead for it (v48), practice it, pursue the virtues it encompasses (v45).  Be a true follower of Christ (v48) or you cannot receive it.
v47: Love Christ with all your heart, and you will receive his love for all others.

Moroni 6
v1: I was baptized at 8 years old.  I remember very little about it.  I remember there was an interview with the bishop, but I only have visuals (he ran a 5-and-dime store and there was a lot to see since the interview was in his office there (we had no church building, but used rented space in a government building).  I remember nothing of what was said.
v2-3: Whenever one was baptized, one should continually show worthiness of that ordinance and covenant through repentance and obedience.  It can be easy to forget that.  The Sacrament is meant to remind us.  It's amazing how two little verses can take a lifetime to master: broken heart, contrite spirit, repentance, taking Christ's name upon yourself, being determined "to serve him to the end".
v4: All that is so that you can have the Holy Ghost guide you.
Don't be the sort of member who doesn't give their contact information to the Church, who never responds to Church leaders and members trying to contact you.  Church membership isn't a mere formality, it's an active thing - names are taken so that we can live our religion, helping each other, asking and being asked for help.  We can't do any of that if we don't know how to contact each other.  Being "kept track of" is part of our Church! (per the end of verse 4, and other scriptures.)
Remember that it is only through Christ's merits that we have any hope at all, so rely on him.
v5-6: Meet together often with your fellow saints!  You need them, and they need you.
v7-8: Encourage others, and be encouraged, to live the gospel, to not give up.
v9: Learn to recognize and follow the Spirit.
(This and preceding chapters read to me like Moroni thinking, "OK, now what all am I going to need to teach this Joseph Smith guy, and how am I going to remember it all?  I'd better just write a few notes for him.")
Holy cow.  I should have done 6 yesterday.  7 is a doozie.  Will post it next.

Perhaps he intended them to be in tandem, the one completing the other - you must do good works with good intent to be good.
Are you so sure the following verses aren't the fine print?
Perhaps Mormon is not asserting that a person is one or the other, but rather is trying to teach how to become a good person, by telling you the sorts of things a good person does.
Perhaps the difficulty comes when using human, short-term perception to try to determine whether a thing is good or evil.
IMO, the difficulties you point out are the reason why we must continually study all scripture, not just some of it, and not just some of the time.  The whole collection is needed to paint a clearer picture, and repeated study is needed to gain more and more understanding over time.

Given Mormon's description of the state of the people in Mormon, I'm curious about just how many peaceable followers of Christ there were at this time. In Mormon, Mormon gave the impression that everyone was wicked. Moroni 7:3  Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church, that are the peaceable followers of Christ,
 
 
How many Nephites were walking peaceably with the children of men at this time? Moroni 7:4  And now my brethren, I judge these things of you because of your peaceable walk with the children of men.
 
 
've never understood this and the next few verses. It seems to contrast with verses such as Matthew 7:22. A person can do good works for bad purposes. Does the fact that they did good works then make them a good person? Intent counts for a lot.   22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not aprophesied in thy name? and in thy bname have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Moroni 7:5 For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also.
 
 
Portions of this, and related verses, seem to have some similarities with nonsense. It is an almost universal trait of people to alternate, sometimes quite quickly, between states of good and evil and sometimes they can be in two states of mind at once. Is a man who pays 100% tithing and fully lives the word of wisdom but who spends hours looking at online porn good or evil? And if he spends Saturday night looking at porn and then gives a gift of tithing on Sunday morning, is that gift accepted? The same person can be good on Monday and evil on Tuesday and good again on Wednesday and evil again on Thursday. There are also teachings, particularly in Mosiah, that the natural man is an enemy to God. How can an enemy to God do good things? Mormon seems to be painting a picture of people as being wholly good or wholly evil, which is completely untrue. Evil people do good things and good people do evil things all the time. In the previous verse, Mormon highlights the importance of works, saying that if their works are good, then they are good also, but in this verse he highlights the importance of intent, suggesting that unless the works were done with real intent, it profiteth him nothing. Its not easy to see how both verses could be correct. Moroni 7:6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.
 
 
This verse, and the surrounding verses, should be read in conjunction with Matthew 5: 23 - 24, 6:2, Matthew 7:11, Matthew 10:42, and Acts 8: 18 - 24 Moroni 7:7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.
 
 
ee Acts 5: 1- 5 I'm uncertain as to whether the inherent goodness involved in giving a gift is entirely overcome, or completely nullfied, by any lack of purity motivating the giving of a gift. I'm thinking of the foreign aid programs of many governments that are typically motivated by a variety of benevolent and self-interested purposes. It might even be the case that the church, when deciding how, and how much aid to give in response to a disaster, might be influenced by considerations of what is in the best interests of the church to do. If a person has a single gift that he is willing to give to one of two people in equal need and he gives it to the one who he believes it is in his best interests to give it to, does that then remove, or lessen, any blessings he might receive for giving that gift, or is he counted evil before God for not giving it to the other person? 1 Samuel 15: 12 - 26 is also relevant. Moroni 7:8  For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.
 
Mormon, who wrote this letter, recorded his personal experience of praying, seemingly with great intent, but with no faith in Mormon 3:12 We see a good example of prayer without intent in Alma 31: 14 - 18. Moroni 7:9  And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.
 
 
Come unto me all ye that labour and are heavy laden and I will give you rest. This is a promise from God to receive those who come unto Him with no fine print about intent. Moroni 7:9  And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.
 
 
Again, Matthew 7: 9 - 11 when Christ said that evil people can give good gifts. Moroni 7:10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.
 
 
he sweetest waters - a broken heart and a contrite spirit - sometimes come from the most bitter of places - a heart torn by sin and regret. Perhaps one could go so far as to say that it is absolutely essential for a bitter fountain to bring forth good water. Moroni 7:11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water;
 
 
I think what I am reacting against the most here is my impression that Mormon is saying that a person is either good or bad. Its difficult to see how that might be true. We are all, always, both. I suspect that pure evil and pure goodness are both as rare as each other. Moroni 7:11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.
 
 
If a person has wandered 5 degrees of the straight and narrow path, he is still closer to God than the devil, but the fact that he has wandered could suggest that to a limited extent he is following both Christ and the devil. If he wanders more than 90 degrees off the path than he is actually going backwards and we could say that he is closer to the devil than to Christ. Moroni 7:11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.
 
 
 have always had trouble understanding what this scripture means. I attended Friday services at a mosque a few weeks ago. The people who attended believe in a false concept of God but they do believe in some form of god. Is that evil or good? Islam exhorts its followers to live a virtuous, perhaps even righteous, way of life, but if you tried to attract them to the higher, holier beliefs and practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, any such attempt would probably be met with rejection and maybe even hostility. This idea of living a righteous life is common to all major religious and it is a good thing, so according to Mormons' line of thinking, because it is good, it must come from God. But if the effect of these other religions is to hinder people from seeking a higher truth, and to bind people into a false form of worship and keep them from the source of all truth, then that would be a bad thing. If you are worshipping a false form of God, with faith and real intent, is that a good or a bad thing?   Moroni 7:12  Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil;
 
 
What would Mormon have thought of the churches described in 4th Nephi 1:26- 27? They seemingly believed in Christ but they had many problems. What is the situation of those organisations which invite and entice to do good continually, such as Alcoholic Anonymous, but which only acknowledge a higher power, and not God. Or Rotary, or the Masons or any such organisation which entices its members to do good, entirely seperate from any religious beliefs? The legal system strives to do good but it will not be influenced by any overtly religious arguments (even though they require witnesses to swear on the bible). Moroni 7:13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.
 
 
I think there are many who blame misfortune on God. And the scriptures certainly make clear that a lot of unfortunate events can be directly attributed to God, the great flood being just one example. Moroni 7:14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God
 
 
 
 

That would be the MSG and high fructose corn syrup talking.    (PS: You can stuff Stovetop into the bird.  The slimy slop comes from folks who don't know how to cook a stuffed bird.)
 
And I should now note that I don't especially like stuffing, but when I have it, prefer Stovetop1 cooked until it's quite dry on the stove and wouldn't cook a turkey, let alone stuff one except to save myself from starving.  But I hate deception and falsely presented truths.  There's no danger is stuffing a turkey.2  Try it out:
buy a (dead) turkey stuff something - anything (that's not still alive, please) - inside it toss the whole kit and kaboodle in the trash can wash your hands and forearms well report back afterwards whether you're still alive There is danger is under-cooking food - any food that needs to be cooked.  It isn't complicated to cook a stuffed bird sufficient to cook the stuffing and kill off any bacteria that may be present - you just have to learn how.
 
1chicken flavor over turkey flavor
2above and beyond the danger of handling the turkey at all during prep (assuming the turkey is dead - if it's still alive, there are probably other dangers in trying to stuff it...)