ryanh

I hope the Savior is not so nit-picky with me. As I make many mistakes stumbling my way through parts of life, I work very hard to not be judgmental of others, so that I may receive such mercy in kind. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged . . .

I prefer to take a more hollistic view in determining our responsibilities, and not selectively choose scriptures out of context. The above scriptures and non-scripture (chapter/section summaries are not scripture) need to be balanced with an understanding of other commandments, such as the beatitudes (see Matthew 7:1-5). D&C 46 and 3 Nephi 18:28 are both situations where direction was being given to Church leadership - those who have stewardship or organize and conduct meetings. In contrast, Matthew 7:1-5 was given to the masses: Given the very clear interpretation of Elder Oaks in regards to when/what is righteous judging (and he is a former UT supreme court judge - one who has had to carefully consider when judging is appropriate), and the direct commandment of Jesus to not judge lest we be judged, I don’t see it as any lay person’s responsibility to make any assessment of worthiness. In fact, I believe when we are in the process of making any such determination, we are proving we still have the beam in our eye the Savior was referring to.

Being a convert at 16, and not being raised with the Gospel in my family, what I have learned about sexuality and the Church's teaching on sexuality comes largely from Church approved resources and representatives (General Conf, lesson manuals, Ensign articles, etc). I often find myself scratching my head in confusion when people begin to say "the Church is repressive in it's teaching". I hear General Authorities say frequently that sexual intimacy is good, wonderful, appropriate, even commanded. Even from President Kimball’s The Miracle of Forgiveness, which was a depressing read for me as it focused so heavily on the sinfulness of fornication and adultery, did not leave me with any sort of impression that he taught any aspect of sexuality being bad, dirty, or something to be repressed. I am well aware there are many members incapable of maturely and appropriately teaching their children about sexuality, and giving it the proper reverence. I suspect many that claim "the Church" is doing wrong are confusing individuals with the organization. Otherwise, I must conclude that they are listening to General Conference with a skewed perspective, or perhaps listening to leaders of another church organization altogether.

You miss the point, and you really ought to read the entire speech. The act of judging in an of itself can be a sin if unrighteous. When outside of our stewardship, it is unrighteous to judge as worthy or not.

Dr Harley is by no means the only one to have identified attractiveness as a significant emotional need of some people.

Elder Oaks' point above is that a judgment of worthiness that is outside of our stewardship is not a righteous judgment. In light of Elder Oaks' clear comments, when we are talking about a "friend", not someone we have stewardship over as a Bishop, SP, etc, then I conclude that judging them as unworthy is an unrighteous judgment. In short, it is none of our business. When someone comes here saying 'my friend is unworthy to do temple work', I do feel that, within the framework of the Gospel, it is none of his business to making that determination. Concern may be warranted, and perhaps that could be discussed with the friend, but the judgment is offputting.

And what if he does? Do you then feel you have the right or responsibility to judge?

We all have our sensitive issues and perspectives that color the way we view a situation. I do find it very interesting in a reply to me that you attribute thoughts and feelings that go FAR beyond what I am thinking/feeling. Interesting that by pointing out simple facts of the situation (he did admit, per Tattered's recounting, that he was deceitful, unfaithful, etc), you jump to a place so far as attributing to others he is "no better than the dust of the earth", and judging him worth stoning! In fact, I indicated he deserves consideration, but, I disagree that his consideration is paramount over the victim's consideration. Supporting Tattered in the idea that she has a right to do what is best for herself (which may well include conceding to her H's wishes) has nothing to do judging as worthy of stoning. The sinner does merit Christ-like consideration, yes, but not at the expense of the victim. I take the stance that we all have to live with the consequences of our mistakes, whether great or small. I consider bringing infidelity into a marriage as having consequences, one of the least of which being the victim may discuss the matter with trusted spiritual and professional sources.

Let me see if I have this right . . . you feel that after the terrible damage done to the relationship - after his deceit, betrayal, and ultimate infidelity, you feel the victim ought to tip-toe around being careful to not step on any of the broken shards of the relationship scattered on the floor? He was free to unilaterally act in a way that was horribly devastating. I think she has well more than a 'right' to unilaterally act to find help and healing from trusted sources. It would be 'good' were she to talk to her H about seeing the B beforehand, but in no way does it "have to be with her husband's support". That is a double-standard IMO.

Frequently asking husband/kids to tie shoes for you. Sometimes get up at night to go pee twice within 15 minutes.

I would suggest that the "how" is that the interactions are meeting an unfulfilled emotional desire/need of your friend. Whether one is looking for deep connections or not, interactions that create fulfillment easily lead to feelings of love, and a desire to reciprocate.If your friend wasn't looking for these feelings to develop, but they caught him unawares and are irresistible, what is preventing other feelings even deeper and more irresistible from forming - to the point that they overcome him and he slips? As far as advice . . . your friend might consider reading/listening to His Needs, Her Needs - building an affair proof marriage to get insights and ideas on what to do.

If that is the measure of a "best pet", then snakes are far better than cats. Just fill the water bowl, and throw in a cat of the appropriate size as food, and you can leave on vacation for well more than a week.

Ask yourself: Why does she choose to confide/lean on him as opposed to any other person? I suspect it is because there is an emotional connection. Even if it is a completely benign friendship emotional connection, it poses some level of risk to your relationship. Eventually you two will have disagreements and bumpy patches. And where would she go for a listening ear? Such is the arrangement that is the precursor to many unintentional affairs. I would suggest you two read His Needs, Her Needs to understand more fully why a close connection with a member of the opposite gender is an unwise practice for a married person.

We will all eventually cause "tarnish" on our spouses, and hurt them. While it is important to attempt to minimize those hurts, when they do occur, our careful attention to erasing the "tarnish" can restore the relationship to it's previous state. Marriage research (Gottman) indicates that for every one criticism or hurtful comment/act, it takes 5 positive ones to counteract/neutralize it. Make it a goal to give him at least 5 positive meaningful (things that he appreciates whether it be words of kindness, recreational activities, or acts of service – whatever most touches his heart) to begin to erase the hurts.

Hey Beef and Dravin. I know it is well past time for the wedding songs, but thought I would suggest a post-wedding song to this old thread. For when you two are troubled, or hit a bumpy patch to pass through . . . when you are close to tears or it's darker than December, listen to "High" by Lighthouse Family. Although not the giddy type of love song, it's a great inspirational love song none-the-less.

We often achieve what we focus on. When pushing for a goal, we ought to keep focused on the goal. Any distractions may prevent us from achieving the goal. I did a FHE lesson recently to try to illustrate this concept. I put a $100 on one side of the room, and then a chocolate bar (a little piece of heaven ) on the other side of the room. Each of the kids tried to obtain the candy bar (which I moved while they weren't looking) while maintaining eye contact on the $100. Each fumbled to grab the prize they were challenged to obtain. (and one made a mad dash for the $100 instead of the candy bar! lol) If you and/or your fiance are focused on sex, sex, sex, (as evidenced by the consideration of 'test drive') then that's most likely what you'll achieve. I've been through two engagements, and I can say that when the sex is focused on, it is much harder than when a marriage the Lord's way is focused on. At best, you'll fumble your way trying to reach the Temple, if at all. Absolutely not a valid concern. (Marriage to my first wife was fraught with sexual problems. I doubt that we would have figured that out anyway had we broken the law of chastity. So, I think I have a valid basis on which to forum an opinion that it is absolutely not a valid consideration.) I'm a little saddened you don't see that clearly for the false lure it is. Of course it is different! Have you not reasoned any of this out in your own mind already? The adversary knows you are close to the edge, and will do whatever he can to give you a little push (justifications, etc which you are already falling prey to) to make you fall. Focus your attention on the right things, reach for what is right, and don’t be so foolish as to justify giving up the worthy goal for that which won’t last.

Do some reading. There are books out there about making the right choice in partner after divorce that are very helpful. I highly suggest lots of reading to avoid making a mistake. Edit to add: Most people will feel those emotions upon entering new potential relationships even right after a divorce is completed. Those feelings are felt whether a person is healed sufficiently or not, ready to make a sound decision in partner or not. And it will level out over time. So give it time and experience to make sure decisions are not being made off of the initial rush only. Making decisions off of those initial giddy feelings is dangerous at best.

See your Bishop. You will need a living ordinance recommend, not just your regular temple recommend. Your Bishop is where you need to start to get a living ordinance recommend.

IMO, you and your wife need to read His Needs, His Needs by Dr. Harley. He well describes why you are having such a hard time letting go of the OW, and what you need to do to make your marriage viable.

Content with the Things Allotted unto Us Come What May, And Love It.

Gwen, regarding your first scenario with the mother in law: I would say to the MIL: "keep your nose out of other people's business!!!" I've been in the situation where a MIL placed her happiness in part on what was going on in someone else's life. It simply contributed misery to the lives of all involved. I do think that such interference can perpetuate expectations without letting a couple develop their own personalized expectations for their own relationship that work for them. Their marriage is their life, not hers, and she needs to learn to let go and let others live. Sure, it’s hard, but if we intend to be like our Heavenly Father, we clearly have to learn to let go of others and let them live and learn from their mistakes. Often we want to ‘control’ our situation as much as we can (which may include ‘controlling’/influencing others’ lives that impact us). Such is natural for most people (some prefer to be directed or told what to do, but I think most want to be able to control what they do, and what happens to them). I used to marvel at the idea of the Savior’s admonition to take no thought of tomorrow. I had to justify in my mind that such directive was solely for the apostles of old, or the missionaries of the 19th century that were full time dedicated to proclaiming the gospel. After all, even the missionaries these days take thought of how to finance their missions, right? For myself, I’ve learned to view the Saviors admonition in macro terms, rather than so narrowly as to conclude He meant: ‘don’t try to make a living, or improve your temporal circumstances’, etc. Rather, all things truly are in God’s hands. “No righteous man is ever taken before his time.” (President Joseph Fielding Smith, at the funeral services of Elder Richard L. Evans, Ensign, Dec. 1971) "Every trial and experience you have passed through is necessary for your salvation” (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe (1954), 345). We have our agency, but the circumstances we encounter are under the design of the Father. After all, everything; our lives, our bodies, this earth, every single thing was created by God. I have found strong evidences of His guidance and changing of circumstances in my life. I know it happens daily for us all, even if not so grand as the examples we often cite in the scriptures. I think it just too easy for us to get caught up in a cycle of feeling like we have to solve or control everything ourselves. It is hard to let go, and let God take care of the day unto itself. It’s a delicate balance, and one that I think a lot of LDS struggle with defining similar to the struggle to define how much work we must to do qualify for exaltation. (When in reality, no matter how much work we do, we will never qualify, so we are entirely dependent on the Atonement and grace. A similar situation exists in our thoughts that we need to do everything to take care of tomorrow, but in reality God has much more control over it that we can possibly exert.) Perhaps others have this figured out well, and it was just me that struggled to define a balance between what I can control, and recognizing just how much control God has over what comes before us. But for me, learning to not try to control those things I cannot control (or ought not to try to control), much like the serenity prayer thought, has been very beneficial in allowing myself to find happiness amidst adversity.

What you define as "needs" is critical here. Are you talking only about the bottom two levels of Maslow's hierarchy of needs? Because to progress into the third, middle level, it requires socialization with others! That is a huge part of why we often find it difficult to be "happy" in the middle of a discordant intimate relationship - esp when it is a marriage that is the discordant relationship. Either the 'needs' as defined by Maslow are not being met and we cannot progress to higher levels, or we become hyperfocused (the pebble analogy in my previous post) on the failings in this area, and have difficulty moving on. And, as Maslow points out (and frequently this is more true for men than women), sexual fulfillment is a key component to progressing to higher levels in Maslow's hierarchy of 'needs'. For LDS, there is only partial progression into higher levels without marriage. The parts of the pyramid built above the middle layer are on a "incomplete" foundation - one lacking sexual fulfillment. And, situations like yours, mine (in the past), Crash's, Gwen's hypothetical situations, and many others show how many of us get "stuck" at that middle layer because we are not finding the social fulfillment we desire (need). While I do believe we can be genuinely "happy" without being married, or while in a difficult marriage, etc, etc, below are some of my thoughts on one reason we may find it difficult to do so unless we recognize the obstacle faced. Rather than retyping or taking additional time to edit it, I'm going to copy and past what I posted to another forum system that deals specifically with difficult marriages. It is noteworthy to me that even though the range of complaints are wide, the end result seems to be the same type of frustration. What is it that sharing of chores, sex (both too much and too little), timeliness, planning, denial, cutting remarks, finances, arrogance, hygiene, and all of the other shared complaints have in common? We frequently talk about the specific behaviors, but, why? What is it about those specific behaviors that makes all of them seem so deflating in the same manner? I do believe that there is at least one thing that almost all of our complaints have in common – the specific behaviors communicate to us the message from our spouse: You’re Not Important To Me. The various nuances of what specifically is communicated might be slightly different, but the end result is the demonstration, the proof that our spouse does not value us. And even if they do in reality value us, their actions speak louder than their words, and have the greater impact on us. This concept really hit home to me a few years back when contemplating why I felt so hurt by my ex’s lack of attention to my "needs". I knew it wasn’t because I needed intimacy. Of course I could survive and get along without it. My former spouse would continually forget what emotional needs were important to me (and thus facebook, or the dishes, or being out with friends was always preventing being together). I eventually came to the conclusion that why it hurt so much is that it communicated to me that my desires were not important to her – hence I was not important to her. As an additional, yet opposite (too much attention, not neglect) example, the message of lack of significance is analogous to the reason I dislike being micromanaged at work. In effect, a person micromanaging me is telling me they doesn’t think I’m capable of handling even basic and simple tasks. It communicates a degree of mistrust/lack or confidence. But, unlike basic love/respect or importance/significance, these messages of trust are not so foundationally damaging to a relationship. We can still get along with and love someone that doesn’t have a perfect concept of us. But we don’t want to share our life with someone that thinks of us as insignificant or unimportant. I believe this message of conveying significance or importance to a spouse is at the root of behaviors popular marriage therapies and theories promote. The Chapman's The Five Love Languages and Hartman's His Needs, Her Needs (MarriageBuilders.com) both have similar theories about showing our spouse love in the way that is most meaningful to them. Many counseling techniques I’m familiar with focus on this effect too, even though not necessarily defined that way. It seems that whatever I think of, I can trace back to more than just functionality (more than just being effective at communication, effective at task sharing), but in effect work at rebuilding the conveyance that the other person is significant to the one modifying their behavior. I can recall as far back as 18 years ago some statements in a psych class from Dr. Gottman’s research about marriage and divorce – something to the effect that the likelihood of a person seeking divorce had more to do with that individuals perception of how their spouse viewed them or felt about them, than how their spouse actually viewed or felt about them. Think about that! In some instances, perception is reality; but in this case perception is more important than reality!!! How a spouse thinks the other spouse views them was more of a determinant in predicting subsequent divorce than how that spouse actually viewed them! (That finding says a whole lot about how to have a successful marriage - in many, many ways.) That stuck with me all these years, and I thought it made sense, but it really began to make sense after reading the following. Below is a section from the book ADD & Romance that began the congeal my thoughts on this matter. I’m reading a new book now – Dr. Gottman’s Why Marriages Succeed or Fail. This was at the suggestion of a counselor my girlfriend [now wife] and I saw recently (it is soooooo nice to be seeing a counselor for preventative reasons, not because a relationship is crap!!!) I haven’t read much but the first chapter so far, but I can see how much of the information Gottman is sharing fits into the significance idea I am coming to an understanding of. One interesting thing that Gottman makes very clear – that a couple fights is not inherently a sign of problems. It is how they fight that matters far more. Conflict can be a good thing in marriage so long as it is respectful and productive. But, it becomes damaging when one of the four horsemen become involved. For more info on Gottman’s ideas, see: http://www.isoulseek.com/sitebranches/relationskills/articles/6signs.pdf A few years back, when I was still trying to save my sinking marriage, I used to try to ponder how to not be so hurt by the actions that communicated to me insignificance. I pondered if my skin was just too thin. And, my ex was always sure to point out that I was thin skinned! Perhaps it's true. But, I also knew that a spot rubbed too much in a rough way becomes more sore and sensitive with time - much like a blister. Anyway, I was wondering if the solution to our marital troubles might lie in my developing a thicker skin, a way to let the crap roll off my back like water off a duck. I pondered that a lot and tried to come up with various ways to do so. In part, I was successful to not take the continual neglects so personally. That journey was a very personal one of reading several books and realizing that my self worth needed to be based on internal values rather than external reflections. A lot of what I came to understand was in part religious in nature, so I won't bore you all with that. In short, I looked for my intrinsic value from the inside, not from what others thought or did. That was a very valuable exercise, and a “gift” that I thank my ex for giving me. I might never have been pushed to develop that were it not for her. As an extreme, we can all imagine a person that bases their self esteem on goods, or looks. The man that thinks having a big truck, or a sports car will make him more impressive. The woman that feels augmentation, or other beauty features are what make her of worth. I think it's something we all struggle with starting from middle school. It is all too easy to base our worth and value on external “things”. My happiness increased when I did find within myself some greater sense of self-worth rather than basing it on my ex, my work, or what I wore. Certainly the shift away from my ex's behaviors was the largest help. I became far more stable and was usually in a much better mood (since I was not feeling 'devalued' as much). But there was still something missing. I really found I simply could not be fully happy. The effects of my ex were reduced, but it was in part due to “ignoring”, and in part due to a form of self-affirmations. The messages I received from her frequently telling me I wasn't significant, wasn't important, wasn't worth the effort to pay attention to still hurt. It dawned on me recently part of why that is. I don't think it is something we can just “tune out” unless we have other stronger sources giving us the opposite message (and if we do, watch out for the mental conflict that will cause and the potential to start hating our spouse because of it!!!) I was thinking about Maslow's hierarchy of needs: Notice how the middle layer, right after some of the most basic needs of food, water, and shelter is the love/belonging needs? No wonder so many of us struggle with self esteem issues!!! Based on Maslow's theory, there is no way to develop the esteem until the more basal need of love and friendship is being fulfilled! During an Education Week presentation, Chris and Lili Anderson shared some wonderful messages about finding happiness and fulfillment in a challenging marriage. See Overcoming Challenges in Marriage: Dealing with Hurt and Anger IMO, that's a must watch for anyone trying to find happiness in the middle of a difficult marriage. I have many other thoughts, but will have to save them for another day.

I've never seen the movie. And I far perfer the context in which Elder Scott shared it anyway.

First, chill a little, ok? I don't disagree, and don't think the perspectives we are coming from are all that different. You don't know how I struggled with this and finding happiness amidst emotional neglect for more than a decade. I have come to many of the same conclusions you have. But, when you define what your thoughts are primarily though rhetorical questions surrounding a statement of "I'm not understanding all this talk about needs.", you are going to be questioned on where you really stand.There are a number of articles I have found over the years on finding happiness amidst trials and difficulties. One of the better for my perspective is a 2000 BYU Devotional: Elements of Happiness by Donald N. Wright I am not very effective in sharing my thoughts via type (or verbally), so I often draw from quotes of others to more eloquently share what I'm thinking. The following quotes capture a good part of my feelings about this topic of finding happiness in a difficult marriage. The trick is in what one emphasizes. We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same. Carlos Castenado Both abundance and lack [of abundance] exist simultaneously in our lives, as parallel realities. It is always our conscious choice which secret garden we will tend... when we choose not to focus on what is missing in our lives but are grateful for the abundance that's present - love, health, family, friends, work, the joy's of nature, and personal pursuits that bring us happiness - the wasteland of illusion falls away and we experience heaven on earth Sarah Ban Breathnach I really like that last one. And I think that is what you Bishop was probably getting at (at least in part) Crash. Richard G. Scott compares the issue to holding a "pebble" and the various possible perspectives. If we hold that pebble (problems, issues, shortcomings) in front of our eye, then that is all we can see. However, when we hold it back, or even cast it on the ground, it can be seen in perspective. And we can then see all the beauty around in the world that couldn't be seen when we were so closely focused on the 'pebbles' of our lives. That, IMO, is a huge part of finding happiness amidst adversity. Keeping it in perspective, and not holding a pebble immediately in front of our eye longer than is necessary to inspect and understand it. Cast it to the ground and put it in perspective with the whole after understanding it.

And so. . . . where exactly do you draw the line yourself? Can you dumb down your "expectation" for food, water, and air? How about basic needs for attention or affection. If you don't think these are real needs, I suggest you do some reading on the topic. They may be on a spectrum, and not as basic and immediate as physical nourishment, but they certainly are not as trivial as an expectation such as hair length, hair color, or deodorant fragrance. But, it is pretty well established that for a person to thrive, there are certain emotional needs. Where do you draw the line crash? At what point is a relationship just missed expectations, and when does it become a 'relationship' that drags a person down and subverts their sense of worth? How do you think one adjusts expectations in the middle of a situation where a person's sense of worth is sinking simply from neglect (no overt abuse)? Jonathan Halverstadt, M.S.