Gramajane

quick note- not having time to read the whole that has gone before. --- We do not have I understand but a bare minimum of what the apostles in Jesus time said to each other or to the members, and they also had to work things out-- and we need to compare "apples to apples" so, how can we, if we don't have all they said back then, but obviously EVERYTHING was not counted as scripture, or we would have a LOT more, and it seems we don't have ANY (?) of the words of some of the apostles?? -- also there is care needed in these latter-days that what is 'said' to be said (heresy?) without the full source given, ---also whether that source is indisputable in it correctness (Journal of Discourses IS NOT totally accredited!) so-- it does seem to be that one could take up a lot of valuable life time to discuss things about as revelant as "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" -- when what REALLY matters, is that we first seek to follow the light that we do believe to be from God as we contine to seek for what more truth there is, and pray about it-- which would include in my view- reading with open mind and heart- the Book of Mormon, and asking God if the latter-day prophets are true. --- We do not have to accept every off hand remark, but we do need to pay attention to what is said in General Conference, and what is printed in the official church magazines that is the first article from the first presidency. ---- so bottom line about the priesthood? at this time -- "all worthy male members (of adequate age and accountability ?) may receive the priesthood. -- and there you have it. (in my view :)

Wow, what a limited concept of God seems to be in your analogy! To me, God is so inclusive of all that is good, wonderful, knowledgeable etc, that we can't even get a scope of it, we barely get to glimpse like one bud of a leaf of a whole humongous tree! --- The VERY fact of free agency, or moral agency- is that we GET a choice (many choices!) Satans plan was that he would force everyone to lock step, and not make ANY mistakes and thereby nobody would make any "wrong decisions". To some, that might seem comforting (because to me they don't see the whole picture- and THIS would be limiting like you have in your baseball dad) --- But with Jesus Plan, we get a voice and a choice, and we get help from the Spirit of Christ when we are born, plus we have the gift of the Holy Ghost after we are baptized, and still we have SO MANY choices, that we can still mess up. -- To me a better analogy would be like to say -- Free agency helps us gain - the glory of God which is intelligence and choice - while without choice or chances of learning- what choices have we? to remain ignorant that we don't have choices? (there are many who seem stuck like that-- and to me it is like communism etc)

I remember seeing some advice years ago to a wife who had converted to the restored gospel, but her husband was not only not interested, he was afraid, and she had already pushed too hard, so now he was pulling back. The advice was for HER (the only person you can change is yourself!) to so live the gospel (Christlike, loving, inviting but not forcing!) that her very loving attitude, while accepting him where he was, would give him (and her) more peace, while she could continue to feast on the scriptures and enjoy LDS music, go to church, etc, etc. She could bring the spirit of the Gospel to him, which would help him to recognize the value in her life (and then hopefully want more -- It is no guarantee even if you marry a returned missionary, that they will not change and LOSE their testimony, but the odds are better. Still I think the BEST is to seek for guidance and confirmation from the Holy Spirit about who to marry- after you figure it out reasoning with your mind. Still- a BIG part, is to not date except within those who at LEAST have your values-- and though you could group date with some members of other faiths who do share the same values, do not couple up-- why risk it? -- The GREATEST happiness is a celestial marriage! I love mine! (40 years and counting! ) Gramajane

Me, I'm working to be a blend of all the colors of the rainbow (NOT using the word as usurped by Gays!)

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you. The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. " So with that Bible scripture in mind-- what is the reasoning? It makes sense to me. :) The Jesus follows in his Fathers footsteps and we are to follow in Jesus and be 'co in inheritors" of all that the Father hath? ( I think that is another scripture from the Bible)

"When God shuts all the doors, he always opens a window" -- or something like that. If you did nothing wrong (that you know of) and you have asked for an explanation already but got none, I would tend to let it go It is sad not to have a good referral, but I doubt you would feel comfortable working their unless they totally and humbly apologized and then it still might be hard to trust them- as trust bridges once broken take TIME to rebuild. Yet, I understand much of the 'help" some lawyers give is more like the cartoon picture of two farmers fighting over a cow- where each farmer pulls on one end of the cow but the lawyers are in the middle, each milking a side of the udder as fast as they can! (this has been our experiences with an LDS one even!) though there are quite a few who are ok and even good But- if we are to Thank God and look for the good to come of all things, as we love Him, it may be that you will look back on this as a blessing, as you may find a better job, with better pay etc. Looking at your picture I would make another wonder. Maybe the bosses wife was worried her husband would fall for you, or maybe their son? I know of a girl who lost a job because the family was Jewish and their son started showing interest in the girl, who was GREAT at her job, and they had had not complaints etc. May God bless you- and look for the silver lining. Gramajane

I understand that plagiarism is when someone COPIES from some other work and claims it is their original work with giving NO CREDIT to the real source? That being so, then that accusations totally falls on its face-- Joseph Smith NEVER claimed to author the BofM He TRANSLATED IT, and as was earlier said- the scriptures in book itself, says the words are Isaiah! plus the headings tell exactly which Isaiah references to compare with! This is called more like quoting- of if one wants to be picky as the wording is often slightly different, then possibly paraphrasing, but surely not plagiarism --- as the source is given. What is ironic to me- is like the modern parable of the man who discovered a diamond buried in his back yard, and people attacked him on such non important things; a. historically no diamonds could be found there-- b. why was he being a money digger c. he was trying to fool others d. he cared for money more than his family etc but they couldn't seem to just investigate the diamond itself! (read the book for truth!?) My Aunt (on fathers side) was SURE the BofM was false, as no more scripture allowed etc etc -- but then she shared with me the achasic (sp?) record she accepted of another testament which had NO plates, and was supposed to come from some astral realm etc but when I read it-- it ?left out? all the divinity of Jesus Christ! sheeish! Oh, well, I believe she is now, if she hasn't already, listening to my father teach her in heaven and yes we got her temple work done, for whenever she is ready to accept it. :) I love the restored gospel of Jesus Christ! What a blessing to the world, and the only sure way to end the fighting, corruption, greed etc! May we all be willing to accept truth when we find it and continue to seek after these things... Gramajane

I understand that unless you provide the full source for something that you are concerned about-- you don't give anyone a way to help you. --- From my MEMORY (it isn't perfect :/) It was ***Joseph Smith*** that had given a black brother the priesthood, and then received a revelation from God that was not to be done AT THIS TIME, but in the future they would have all those blessings. So Joseph Smith had to go and ask the brother not to use his priesthood. ---- It has in the past been an interesting wonder to me why God would do that- I knew that in Bible times, it was only certain tribes that had the priesthood, so your lineage DID count, but- why in the latter-days was it still necessary? --- I studied quite a bit on it, and finally came to my OWN reasoning- THIS IS NOT GOSPEL DOCTRINE--This is ME- reasoning. So, I asked myself to go to the source a bit- and read all I could, and I could let God be the decider but I STILL wondered, remember I'm a grandma, so I was a member for years before Pres. Kimball had his revelation :) -- then I got to thinking about what does the Elders quorum DO-- (besides give priesthood blessings to heal the sick (and they could heal ANYBODY with faith enough) and of course the temple blessings (and that work can be done for the dead, so all those who at this time had to wait, they didn't have to wait as long as those from centuries back?)--- but then I thought about what my husband DID- -- they SERVED people, --- they chopped wood, shoveled gravel, painted houses, and moved people in and out! --- The members who had been (or were?) slaves had/were already being FORCED to do that! They could have felt totally USED, to be asked to do MORE! It was time WE served THEM! :) --- Right on! Now that made and makes sense to me :) I'm so pleased to have also found in my studies that LDS have ALL ALONG had ALL nationalities worshiping together in the same chapels, in the same benches, etc! (well, when there is a language challenge, then sometimes they have special wards for those LANGUAGES, but they also work to teach English (or other languages and reading and writing etc) as needed asap. :) I wish I could easily find the sources I used in that study years ago, so I could supply them for you. I think you could probably get some clarity on it from F.A.I.R. online. Even in the VERY front of the Journal of Discourses (my set is three flights upstairs in this old house or I'd go check it for sure) -- or it might have been in an Ensign article? -- or both? I seem to remember it telling HOW the Journal of D. was gathered. It was mostly by a man trying to write down what was being said, AS it was being said in mostly regular sacrament meetings! I think he had taught himself an early form of shorthand? Some though was from peoples journals-- but anyway- the people who supposedly SAID the things, didn't get to check for accuracy --- Also it is because they were so SOO hungry for the teachings and didn't have any church magazines or Rel Soc or Priesthood Manuals etc etc! So they did the best they could. The JofD has NOT been canonized (as have the standard works, B. BofM. Doc&Cov, Pearl of G. P) which are the authorized sources. Anyway- I hope that helps anyone who might wonder as I did. I actually think wondering and going to the SOURCES is the best thing to do. I'm SOOOOO glad that the church has got so much available for any member (or member of another faith etc) to check out without having to buy a JofD as I did, as SO MANY anti were quoting it (and they even didn't quote it accurately! ) So, bottom line-- I think it is hearsay (sp) to not get the source, and be sure that it is an ACCURATE source. Along with what others said about judging others by todays standards is likely to be skewed. (--- Hey- they used to only get one bath a week --- IF--- that! Did they even HAVE toothbrushes? )

Humm- I forget who said it-- up in the posts above, but it was something about (I'm paraphrasing-- I wish I had more time!) that nobody believed that God had given any revelations after the N.T. ?? Well- that does not match with history does it? What about Joan of Arc? -- and look what they did to her AFTER her visions helped her to save the French! They turned her over to the English who tortured and killed her! --- Also, as I have studied quite a few other religions, Sung Mung Moon (Moonies) claims visions and wrote a book that I got to borrow from a member-- I believe it was called "The Divine Principle??) but it sure has no spirit like I get from reading the Bible and LDS scriptures! (they also believe "the end justifies the means"). Anyway- my point is that like (I am not sure if this story is true- but it shows my point) I understand about live crabs in a pot put on a stove to boil, that if one starts to climb out, the others pull him back in! Also it used to be that anyone who said they had had a vision, could get put in the nut house! Look what happened to Joseph Smith! His life was in danger again and again till they finally killed him! and this was in USA where it is supposed to be "freedom of religion"! I have read that God had to make a new country and help the founding fathers for that freedom, as even those who came here for THEIR freedom of religion- that most denied any not members of their particular faith, in their colonies etc! Still, the restored church had to flee to the desert and mountains OUT of the USA to survive and even then the US sent an army to "put them down"! Also, I am glad no one here has used the old -cursed be any who add to this book- claim for the Bible, as the books in the Bible were not written in the order that they are printed in our Bible, and way back in the O.T. also (I forget where- my mind has challenges with references, and I'm still on my hubbies computer but he should be back tonight or tomorrow! and get mine going again:) it also speaks of not adding to the prophesies (but both those mean MEN are not to add- to them and not God, and in the book of Rev. it is to THAT book. Anyway- another thought came to me, that ALL the apostles have not died!!! John the Beloved was given the gift he asked for to REMAIN till Jesus second coming! :) Though I don't personally know anyone who claims to have met up with him, there are stories... Anyway-- just my quick thoughts. Got to log off now and get to work! have a great day. Gramajane

this is Gramajane again, I don't have much time and this is just off the top of my head-- but I seem to remember that in the O.T. that the priests took turns, serving in the temple? Though if I remember the High Priest ? (the one who took care of Samuel as a boy) was a more permanent post, and his sons were doing wrong by taking of the food (meat and bread?) BEFORE it was offered to the Lord? -- I remember that the tribe of Levi was not given land of their own, as they were to dwell among the other tribes to serve them- but I do not remember that they were paid money? -- I understand that like with the law of consecration, that things were shared, meals and such, but I don't remember anywhere where they were paid a salary? -- I understand that even now, when a Primary teacher spends money for her class supplies, that she is to turn in the receipt for a "remuneration" and that Seminary teachers (not the full time ones) get a "stipend" to cover expenses made in DOING the work, (it is VERY small) --- but the FULL time seminary teachers- who teach some classes that count for High School credit and so must have a degree etc- do get paid more in line with the non religious teachers, but this is not like any minister- whose congregation gets a plate passed to them to donate into? --- that the apostles have their MUCH travel expenses paid IF they ask for it (I don't know how many donate that as an offering to God?) --- So when I read that from the Doc & Cov, so I don't know if that means that they got some food (tithing in the early days of the church was often in kind, eggs, or flour, or potatoes or firewood etc) as also in those days in the US even, it took a LOT longer to just get to the members houses, but that if the bishops etc family wasn't in NEED, that they didn't just get paid? Anyway- this is my understanding. I think it is an interesting topic that I would like to do an in depth study on some time. I like it that in the restored church, nobody pays the officiator at a wedding, funeral, baptism etc-- it is free, and nobody pays the nursery leader, or even the organist etc. I do understand though that in other churches the pastor is EXPECTED to go personally visit each member of his congregation, and do most ALL the work himself, so I can sure see that if that was the way it worked, then he wouldn't have any time to earn a living for himself or family. In the restored church the MEMBERS are to visit, as home teachers, (to families) and visiting teachers to (women 18 and over) and we do not expect the Bishop to give a sermon (or two?) each Sunday and lead the prayers and prepare and serve the sacrament, do all the baptisms, etc etc. Again it is the members who give the talks, and so the Bishop has time to earn his living and be with his family. I also thought about it and I should have said not "many" but "SOME" preachers... preach TO their congregations and seem more interested in their personal "get" than the members spiritual gain. . My favorite author was a preacher in the 1800 in Scotland, George MacDonald. At that time, from his writing MANY of the preachers were more like "fleecers". (MacDonald is whom C.S. Lewis says converted him to Christianity as C.S. had been an agnostic!) I wish I personally knew more preachers. :) I totally doubt I have a good study group! Gramajane

My understanding of an eternal family, is like on earth even, if there are family members that have "gone really astray" THEY feel estranged, and uncomfortable and do not like to be around those still on the path. ---I have a nephew that with his wife is practically anti now- ((spreading anti literature and trying to pull other family members out of the church)) ---plus a niece who- is breaking the word of wisdom, and got major tatooes, was living together outside of marriage (but they later did get married :) but she does not try to destroy the church. ---plus a brother who just has no testimony- does not attend, but actually lives the word of wisdom etc! The nephew who is anti has now "defriended" most of the family from his facebook account. I had to ask my niece to please only post modest pictures or I would need to block her -- she did MUCH better then and we still connect and she likes family gatherings (we don't bug her) The brother comes to everything (except church) family he can and is a great support to family members. So, the way I see it, those couples not temple sealed, will not be living together but I think they will still really care for each other, and may be waiting for their proxy work to be done. I think just like some persons choices on earth make it so that they can not enter the temple -- so in the higher degrees of glory-- some will not be able to come because of THEIR choices. (they can still repent too I do believe- but it is harder there!) I do love it that LDS have the knowledge to share :) that it is not just heaven OR hell but that there are degrees of glory- like the sun (which also has degrees within that level) the moon- kind of in the middle level and lower down- the stars -- where there is little light but then "outer darkness" with NO light at all-- but FEW will do so MUCH evil that they would merit that! (shudder). Yes there are scripture references for this-- but I am no on my own computer to get them easily Gramajane

I was raised in Mesa, Arizona, and had practically perfect attendance all my life, and straight As in Seminary. I have ancestors on my maternal line, both her fathers side and mothers side, who were or had plural wives, and I have some of their testimonies. I also bought books by good church members about plural marriage, and I have mega church history stuff- both sets of the church history and the whole Journal of Discourses (not that I have read them all ; / -- but I got them as I got frustrated with anti quoting and I didn't have what they were quoting from. -- I discovered that they quoted out of context AND distorted the meanings too, plus made assumptions that were way beyond etc with sometimes just saying things that were not there at all. -- I think what is important is what is necessary for salvation. The rest is interesting and when taken in context supports what is reasonable. Even the Mountain Meadows Massacre- when seen in full context of the murders of men, women and children done to LDS - time and again, and again, before that, with no protection from the authorities, and then with the US army on its way to wipe them off the face of the earth-- with what was probably post traumatic stress disorder- **** though it is STILL totally awful horrible and despicable, hard to believe, should never have happened, not authorized by Pres. Young- a terrible disaster and smirch on those MEMBERS of the church-- ---it is at least understandable in context. I applaud the church supporting the recent writing of the book including all the facts (bad and good) that they could find about it. -- It was really heartbreaking to read. Reminds me some of a worse Bible story, where like to take revenge on their sister being raped, they go wipe out the whole village of the perp- though he asked to marry her (afterwards! , and all the village men in accordance with the families demand- were circumsized to show their support of the marriage and THEN when the men are all wounded- the brothers go and wipe out the whole village! --- again, sorry, I don't have the ref. for this. (I am lazy- up in the night, wishing I were asleep!)-- also on my husbands computer, which I barely get around on, so I don't have an easy way to go get the references. sigh.-- mine won't connect to the internet -- and of course it did that the day after my husband left the state work for a week or more! (Murpheys law?) It is actually amazing to me like the "wise crack" "The church must be true or the ________ (supply any organization here- like the Elders, or Rel. Soc.) would have ruined it by now. " I'm so thankful for the peace and joy I recieve from the gospel. I don't know how I could stand to be in the world if it were not for the help from the Ensign, and leaders etc. I think I would want to flee into the desert as Abraham and Lehi with their families etc!

I wonder when paying the leaders for their work really started- or giving them a salary? Also I find that the Bible supports that it is only not only "The LDS aversion" to paid ministry -- as if there weren't much in the bible about "hirelings as shepherds" etc and how Paul worked to NOT "be a burden on the members"? and to me the bit about not preventing the animals that brought in the harvest to get a bite or two as they did the harvesting-- does not have to mean they were paid, but that they got to eat at church dinners too, not just only serving the widows etc? --- It is true that I have less contact with ministers directly, but more with the official doctrinal stuff a church puts out or with members of other faiths. I also do not have the references, for the things I remember reading. I am up in the night- not being able to sleep. I am glad to hear that there are pastors who support themselves as I had never heard of that. :) I am thankful for any good works that any do. :)

Oh, by the way-- callings in the LDS are not by volunteers, though it is service freely given. You don't volunteer to be a bishop or even a primary teacher, or even to be the Nursery leader! (but subbing or helping in a calling or like with a ward activity, or dinner etc, and in callings to teach, you can let the president know you are available to help out if needed :) But anything above that is really frowned upon! That would be "aspiring" to a calling. Callings are given by inspiration from God to the leaders who are next in line responsible over the work in that area, then they suggest names to the Bishop or counselor in the bishopric over that area, who also pray, then if all is well, they extend the call in private to the individual (and also to spouse if there is one) and they can pray about it and accept or decline the calling- without anyone knowing. It is a kind of a dread, to get a calling as Bishop or as Relief Society President etc, as there is SO much work, and stress and they really need to keep worthy and seek the Holy Spirits help to be able to do the work well. You just know there are great men as SOME or even MOST pastors, as so much good work IS done by many churches! :) Gramajane

oh oh! what I said was NOT meant to be taken as a slam. I said "Many" -- NOT -All--- or NOT even MOST-- ! I also have come across many who are righteous. :) Yet, it is my personal experience that there are many who are not as their members believe. , and even our youngest son on his mission, worked with one man who was a minister and wanted to join the church, as he said he knew it was true, but then he wouldn't have any income! Another man they tracted out, also said he believed the restored gospel, but he had decided to START a little church to make some income for himself. He even told our son how two ministers would get together to help each other (This was in Texas) and described how they did it, In a worship service, after a rousing sermon by the visiting preacher, who made suggestions like ---any who had grandchildren they wanted helped, to come forward and donate, then any who had children who wanted to thank the Lord for his help already given, to come donate, then any who had parents who needed help, any who had personally been helped by this preacher, etc etc-- all to help the OTHER preacher--and making multiple hits on the same people, in front of everyone else-- . Then the preacher would go help the preacher who helped HIM. Truly we are all brothers and sisters! God loves us all the same. And there are MANY in the LDS church, who have only come to prey on the too trusting LDS too. Utah is, I understand the highest rated in scams, as the LDS are too trusting, and wolves enter into the flock after us too! I'm sure God is very sad about any who abuse their membership and especially their calling to be a shepherd of the flock. Two of the men who hurt us financially the worst had callings as counselors in a bishopric (neither was Bishop though!) SOOOOOO SOOOOOoooo sorry- as what I said was written in a hurry as I only had a little time this morning before I had to run out the door. I didn't realize it could be taken so bad. I repent! Gramajane

We took our 5 kids out if they were noisy- BUT not to play-- We (one of us) would take them to a dark (do not turn on the light, and no windows is best!) room, sit on a hard chair, and have the child sit on a hard cold chair too, with no talking etc. If they didn't sit on the chair, then they were held on the lap, with no snugglies, but "blank" WHEN they were sitting quiet, (bored to death, nothing to even see!- no paper and pencils etc!) THEN we would tell them how pleased we were to get to go back and join the family and enjoy the meeting. and our kids did great! -- We also learned to love "Love and Logic" parenting (see on the web) where you let THEM make as many choices (among SAFE things) while they are young, so they learn to think for themselves -- but also we would give some facts. LIKE-- the reason WE stopped with ANY sleepovers (unless visiting family who would have to stay in a hotel otherwise, but still at our home we all have our own beds or sleeping bags! and supervision for kids :) was because we understand that MOST inappropriate interaction happened at sleepovers! that is NOT saying every sleepover MAKES for inapprorpate interaction, but it is a fact that is WHEN most happened-- so you reduce the risks. If they are sleeping they aren't interacting anyway and we know that lack of sleep lowers our inhibitions and deadens our thinking processes so-- why in the world put the kids together then?? -- so let them get together, and stay up a BIT later, but with supervision and with a go home time but certainly not all coed sleepovers !

P.S. Or true, good, unique questions could come from the individual reading the Book of Mormon, or any other official church doctrine, or even over hearing someone talking etc. They ARE questions, as the person WANTS to hear what LDS believe, the goal is not to destroy another persons belief, or to "open their eyes" in a deceptive way, pretending they will listen, when so many (in my experience) do NOT want answers at all--.

To me, "true questions" come from reading the Bible or they might come from reading an anti book, and then HONESTLY asking if such and such is true that they read in such and such book. To me "fake questions" are like Huckabee asking that reporter if Mormons didn't believe Jesus Christ and Satan were brothers? (if you want to real scoop- go to FAIR!) when it has been shown that Huck himself spoke at a religious symposium that addressed that very topic-- I believe he knew it was even worse than a "red herring" (something to distract from the real bulk of the fish- ((situation))) as I believe he knew already that it was a distortion pulled together in such a way as to upset most people and made by anti. ---- I believe he has some mighty repenting to do and that "question" to a **reporter** made sure it would make the news! -- pretty disgusting to me. : /

There are many people who supposedly "have been raised in the church" but then you find out that, they hardly attended, or quit attending when they were young, or they were ones who didn't listen to the teacher because they were too busy talking to friends, or hanging out in the halls , or never attended seminary (or slept through it) etc etc. Humm, I wonder if that Aunt would be shocked to hear about Abraham's wives, Isaac's, or Jacobs, Or any other of the MAJOR Bible prophets multiple wives?

Humm, sounds like your Presidency does not have the manual they are supposed to have? probably on line you can find a manual that the Primary Presidency SHOULD also have, that tells how the classes are supposed to be divided. -- I think you can get a sub, but callings are supposed to go from the Primary Pres, to the counselor over them, then to the person. It is supposed to be a serious matter of prayer for inspiration of who to call. --- You sound like a natural born loving, Christlike teacher, and doing an absolutely AMAZING job! I think you must have been given a great blessing when hand were put on your head to set you apart to teach! Still, you can ask for another blessing (you are teaching a second class)-- and yes, your presidency does seem to be untrained. -- You could also go to the Stake Primary President or the counselor over you for help. -- If they burn you out-- what will they do then-- and what about the poor kids! -- I'll pray for you too!!! Gramajane

In my discussion with people of many faiths over the years, I have found too, that many (other than Catholic, and LDS) choose a church like one would choose a country club, or gym! Is it close, who else goes there, is it socially accepting, etc? Many do not even know what the official church doctrine IS! As many pastors teach TO their congregation, to make them feel good not to help them work to be better, Well, when the pastor is a "hireling" (Paid to be a shepherd)-- he is more worried about his pay, than about the spiritual health of his sheep. --- It all gets back to people needing to read the scriptures THEMSELVES, and praying, and ACTING on what Jesus Christ told us to do-- so in that I agree with you, as I believe if one does that, one will come to WANT to know more about Jesus and will keep seeking till they get their questions answered-- which they will find REAL questions in reading the Bible, like baptism for the dead! Which many true questions are answered in the brought back to the earth by the angels as prophesied in the book of Revelation, gospel-- that if the earth already HAD the full true gospel, God wouldn't have needed to send an angel in the last days to preach to the earth! The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints, is true. :)

England and US Education used to be values based- from the Bible. The very first books to teach kids to read and write were "morals". -- With the main part of the media- TV, Movies etc showing the "hero" telling lies, cheating, etc, and no one teaching that "honesty is the best policy" or expecting that people have control over their bodies enough to be moral, -- and even some churches, "looking the other way" or outright accepting immorality as normal- it is left to righteous parents, and the few righteous people to even say there is right and wrong- everything is NOT relative! Gramajane

I believe that we SHOULD investigate any part of the doctrine that we have difficulty with, but the place to do it is not in a Sunday School class. -- You might after class, or during the week ask the teacher for some help or ask another well informed member in good standing, or going to the scriptures- to study up on it, along with past articles in the ensign-- as often people might THINK they don't agree-- only to find out they didn't understand what the real official church stand was. --- To lie is TOTALLY not acceptable-- One of the temple questions is if you are HONEST in all your dealings! A temple recommend is for those who have learned and accepted the basic teachings required to get one-- if one has serious questions on any of the basics, then they are not ready for the "higher learning" (trig, physics) of the temple and to make promises they can not mean- is totally damaging to the soul and also can cause the Holy Spirit to not be able to help those who have come with other challenges in their lives, as a contentious spirit- drives out the Holy Spirit. So-- yes-- I do believe that if someone lies to the Bishop to get to the temple, is DOES effect others, and it is a VERY sad day when anyone rationalizes to themselves that it is ok. Take the time to study- and get your answers and' "unto thine own self be true, and it follows as night follows day, that thou then canst not be untrue to any man" (I think I quoted that right?) I forget who said it. God bless us all to be honest !

My daughters 4 year old son was playing in the same room with her, with the blocks, and had built a bunch of houses, then he proceeded to "bomb" them with other blocks, while making the explosion sound effects,then he tried in an "evil" voice-- "I"m going to destroy the world!" Suddenly - the bombing stopped and in a little reverent voice he said, "Don't worry Heavenly Father, I don't really want to destroy the world, I'm only playing". the bombing then continued....

F.A.I.R on line can save a ton of time with the "same old" anti book supplied "questions" to ask LDS --- it is SOO sweet to get to answer honest questions from true investigators :) --- still I personally know of quite a few people myself, who BEGAN discussions with the false idea that "the end justifies the means" so it was ok to not be totally honest if one could help "save LDS" from their brainwashed state. Yet when LDS were Christlike in their replies and HAD such reasonable and truthful answers to the supposed totally challenging "questions" then the "investigators" DID investigate and join. --- I actually believe most anti books have several "missions" are not really expecting to get to be read by LDS but are to; 1. Make money and fame for the authors 2. Convince non LDS that LDS are wrong by providing "strawmen" that supposedly represent our true beliefs (not!) and are easily defeated-- along with lies etc 3. And lastly possibly decieve new members. --- Hugh Nibley wrote a spoof work titled "How to write an Anti Mormon Book" that you would think was used by the anti and it would have been hialourous (sp) if it hadn't been about such infernal deciet Gramajane 3.