Gramajane

This is from a copy on FAIR "Question Someone wrote the FAIR Ask the Apologist service saying: "My question is about that fellow who wrote the "17 Points of the True Church" and the validity of his story. I stumbled into a web site that talked about a particular fireside this man gave where someone approached him on the truth of his story. Afterwards the man was told by a stake president that he must confess that he lied because he had been essentially "found out," and that many details of his story were fabricated. My testimony is in no way based on the "17 Points," and I feel that it is overused and overemphasized within the Church, but regardless, I would like to know about the information claiming that his story his false." Answer The person responsible for the "17 Points of the True Church" is a man named Floyd Weston. An ex-Mormon critic of the Church has claimed that Weston fabricated the details of how the "17 Points" were created. For example, Weston claims to have developed the list when he was a student at Cal Tech, and that during this time Albert Einstein visited the school. The critic has charged that Weston was actually at Cal Tech several years too late to see Einstein's visit. All of this is based on an email to the critic from an anonymous person who claims to know someone who knew Weston. So, the source is anonymous and almost impossible to verify. Anyone with further verifiable information is invited to contact FAIR. What this has to do with the validity of Weston's "17 Points" is not entirely clear, but it seems that the critic is attempting to discredit Weston's list (and, by implication, the Church) by discrediting Weston himself. This would be a form of the ad hominem fallacy. The assumptions underlying the "17 points" are highly dependent upon a worldview widely assumed by Utah Mormons, but which rarely reflects the situation of those who are not members of the LDS Church: the idea that there is "one true church" and that people will accept the LDS faith once they are logically convinced that it "matches" the New Testament Church in salient ways. In reality, these concepts are totally foreign to the worldview of most non-Mormons and depend a great deal on the assumptions which one brings to such an analysis. "17 Points" is thus a resource that may be interesting to Latter-day Saints in examining the scriptural basis for certain features of the modern Church, but it is one that has relatively little value or relevance to the missionary effort unless the non-member already shares many aspects of the LDS world-view. Most non-members are likely more effectively approached about the gospel in entirely different ways, and following the Church's emphasis on such things as the mission of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon are more likely to be effective missionary tools. Conclusion It makes little difference for the Church if Weston made up his story, since the truth or falsity of Weston's personal history has no bearing whatsoever on the truth of the restored gospel. Additionally, the "17 Points" may be used by certain individual members of the Church, but they have not been used in any official Church publications or adopted by the Church in any other way. The claims of the restored gospel stand independent of Weston's list. "

About the 17 points- it is no urban legend, as I had in my possession a casset tape made at a fireside by one of the very men it happened to. Also I went to find the book (which I still have) as most of my cassetts went the way of the world when the technology got raised :/) The Book by the Yourgansons, is Titled "The Greatest Quest" . (not JUST the Quest as I mistakenly posted before) and with it on my knee right now, I find in the Authors note the name of one of the men Floyd Weston. In the back of the book, I just looked at the MORE points that one LDS made for the true church, and there are forty two. I once made a list myself- but I came up with only about 30 odd. I will go work to get the 17 points from the internet, as each has a Bible reference (though the authors had more than one ref. for many of them, but didn't put them all on their index cards, that the carried the list around with them written on. I don't know how to go out and come back to the same post, so shall send this now.

Of course Jesus words take precedince. It was only when others seem not content with them and cite "scientific" comparisons that are already answered on FAIR so they can SEE that the OLD lists by anti have been answered years before etc that I reference FAIR. --- when specific topics ( like the "one can drive to this Bible site but to no BofM site, that's something I have seen in anti works or "how to wittness to Mormons" that I give them the answer to what supposedly they ask for. --- I do not like to confront anybody with that maybe they are not being as genuine as they might be to actually come out and say --- hey can you guys answer this list of challenges?? --- and I could be wrong just MAYBE they did come up with that issue on their own, quite unlikely to my view - but possible and I like to always give the benefit of any doubt :) --- So, if the want to bring up topics that are not doctrine and can't be answered by doctrine still having TRUE facts MIGHT bring them to a place where they are willing to listen to JESUS words in the BIBLE and the MORE found in the BofM plus Gids words to us through our living prophet. Yes --- "if any will DO my works... " then they will be so close to the light that they will recognize the source and light in the BofM and other Latter-day scriptures too! May Gid bless us and help us gain more light, knowledge and joy by obeying the commandments and becoming more like Christ. Gramajane

NO! WAY! I understand that It is only those who have received direct visions etc and then turned to deny them and destroy the church- I understand that VERY few have or will be qualified to be able to sin so bad-- I imagine that Judas Iscariot might be one- but we are NOT to judge others-- ONLY Jesus Christ can do that as he knows their hearts. Sorry-- you sure took that the wrong way-- hope you are not masochistic! (like to torture yourself!)

Actually I believe that LDS is much easier to substantiate because the Lord required Joseph Smith to keep a written history and what was happening was also written in members journals, which they were also asked to keep. MUCH of this has been put on the internet FREE for others to pursue- while many churches have no such written records of their beginnings, and some even seem to disclaim their beginnings. One example is that if I remember right (please correct me if I am wrong!!!) that The Watch Tower Society was the original name of Jehovhas Witnesses? Humm-- maybe I should go see if there is any JW on here to let them speak to this? I feel that if we seek with all our hearts, we will find God, and in the mean time, we just need to live by the best we know to do and in this we will be ok. :) Well, I suppose that LDS think this because we believe in the Bible documented baptism FOR the dead, so those who died but would have been baptized had they had a chance, HAVE a chance to accept (or reject) the work done for them by proxy by the living. some churches say that they are just dammed to hell if not baptized some others say there is no need for any water immersion baptism some others say it takes no special priesthood authority to baptize another (I understand that in the dark ages someone who was not even a Christian themselves was allowed to baptize someone else into the church of that time, and then of course there was when sprinkling instead of full immersion in the water was begun- I understand when some king wanted to wait till the last possible time to be sure he would be clean- but he waited so long that there wasn't time so they just sprinkled water on him? I think that the best way is to look at the flow of the whole Bible and search for what matches the pattern. There is a list that was compiled by some college students before the last world war. They called it Seventeen Points of the True Church. They (four of them) were not all of the same faith and one had even been a born again but lost his faith, when his whole family was killed in a tornado when in the very act of prayer for protection. They used the bible to compile the list and then went to the churches to find what matched, but hadn't found any when war took them into the service. Many years after the war they over time found each other (but the born again had died in the war) and they had all joined the same church. Some have said that LDS just made up the whole thing and list to fit only LDS, but that is not true, as we would have had a LOT more points! ;0. Yorganson and Youganson later wrote a book titled The Quest, which they BASED on the true story, but added a girl and other elements not in the true happenings, -- but my point was that at the end of their book they have an appendage, where some LDS has made a list of points for a church to have to be the true church. Anyway- that is one way to search, but it is important to "go to the source!" You don't ONLY ask a Subaru dealer to tell you about the Ford car you are considering. We at least need to let a knowledgeable member in good standing with the church, or the missionaries have a chance to teach us and answer our questions or go to LDS.org or Mormon.org . May we all continually be open to truth and "prove all things, hold fast that which is good". Gramajane

For any who wish for answers to anti challenges to LDS go to the F.A.I.R web site for tons of well documented and scholarly answers. -- to go to your MAIN point about not being able to go to a place mentioned in the BofM when we can to to Bible sites-- please remember how long the Bible has been around compared to the BofM and also what % want to even look for such sites of either --- lets us level the playing field a bit ok? also on fair, you can see how MUCH of what was originally thought great mistakes in the BofM have with time and archeological discoveries now proven to actually be counted great proofs! --- take the place Bountiful, where Nephi built the ship to take them to the promised land-- it was thought until VERY recent years that there was NO PLACE that had trees, fruit, a harbor and even ore to make tools anyplace from the area where they took off from-- NOW a place has been found that has ALL the points and it is right in line with the directions in the Bofm even to the place name where they buried Ishmael! check it out! there are SOOO many archaeological proofs now, like the cement building, etc etc. Have fun! But remember it the the Holy Spirit that brings us to all truth! Gramajane

Oh, like I told another there is a free site to help with thinking/attitudes that are hurting us "The Work" by Byron Katie it is fast and it can help and they have short videos of others using it so you get a clue! "We can do what must be done". There is always some choice-- and so look harder if you don't see any! congratulations on asking for advice!

I suggest that you get some great uplifting spiritual music and listen to it. With words- like Mormon Tab choir is good, but even just the hymns without words can help. also get out to nature, and let yourself de stress. Get alone (from people) but God is there and we are never alone. You say "everything is gone" but actually I think you are just feeling lost in a dense fog-- or darkness, and without reaching OUT for the good things you felt before, you don't feel them now. The trials in our life are to help us grow stronger (think of even weight lifting- it builds muscles) If you like to read, you could read some good books. One part of the Narnia Chronicled has the kids in the clutches of the Green Lady, who causes them to no longer feel what is right, or remember much of the sun- but Puddlegum says- out of the deep depression-- something to the effect- that even if there IS no sun- still he would WANT to believe and would be happier TO believe that there was one, and THAT wanting to have hope saves them. --- The fact that you are on here says you long for what you had-- and probably still have but it is just covered in the fog. You can be forgiven for everything (well maybe except blasphemy against the holy ghost-- but you have not received enough light to qualify for that so don't worry. --- Satan WANTS you to give up, and feel it is lost and no use, that you aren't worthy (all the things HE feels and HAS lost and can't get back!) You have a life, you have choices, you HAVE been baptized, and you have great potential that he wants to destroy! In the twilight book series- (if I remember right) one talent a vampire had was tracking- and he can turn it around and AVOID the person he needs to avoid by going opposite of the way he would if he was tracking them. Satan is who we need to avoid- and anything he wants us to do-- like leave the church, swear, feel unworthy etc) --- then we can be "oppositional defiant" to Satan! Get good music, get around some GOOD friends, tell your bishop you need help, or any priesthood over you, get a priesthood blessing. Even if YOU feel you don't have faith, THEIRS can help you, if only you have the desire! like the bible said the father said when told he needed faith for his child to be healed-- "Lord I have faith, ---Help thou my unbelief!" You CAN do this, or you wouldn't be faced with this challenge to need to do it! You must actually be MUCH stronger than you think to even HAVE been given such a challenge. Depression is the total pits to deal with.

There is a GREAT free online counseling help-! It can be anonymous! It has helped me and helped me see things differently. You can't change others but only yourself, but MAYBE he would check out "The Work" site- it is by Byron Katie, and when I needed help, "coincidentally" (NOT!) there was a woman counselor I could connect to in just a few minuets! We talked on the phone. There are four main questions and a turn around. You can see videos of others doing "the work" and see how it helps so you get the idea. I hope you can get him to check it out! God bless you both, Ill be praying!

Missions are not right for everyone- here is our experience. I am 62 years old with five grown children. 3 boys, 2 girls and only our youngest daughter didn't go on a formal mission. She had her papers turned in except for the last one, but she was struggling, I didn't want to influence her as it needed to be HER decision. Yet I knew she had NEVER talked of going on a mission as her sister had for years. So when she talked to me of her inner struggle, I suggested that she just try to feel calm, and then ask herself, how she felt IF she went on a mission and then ask herself how she felt to not go on a mission, Her face looked stressed as she contemplated the first question but she broke into tears of joy thinking of the second question! She didn't finish sending in her papers. She went to the next YSA dance and MET her husband!!! He had just been home from his mission for 2 weeks, and this was the FIRST dance he went to- They hit it off immediately! She had been used to dancing all the dances with many different partners as she loves to dance, but when he asked her, (a slow one) they ended up talking so much that they forgot to dance, and then sat the REST of the whole night out talking! Other guys came to ask her to dance but she stayed to TALK (she didn't even know he was a GREAT fast dancer too till much later!) His mother had had to talk him into even going to the dance in the first place and then he went home and told his Mom he had found the girl he was going to marry! His Mom then told him to slow down! I think she was 23 or 24 at the time" She had served a stake mission too. She came home and also told me she was pretty sure she had finally found her Mr. Right. She had been so much a homemaker etc that we thought she might marry right out of high school, and it was WAY hard for her to keep looking and not finding him. (she joked that he had died in the war in heaven)-- she had lots of dates, and some slightly serious but nothing felt just right, till she met HIM! They now have four of the greatest kids, (oldest is just in school) and he is in the Bishopric, and she has been in Rel Soc presidency. So you just pray and follow the church guidelines for dating etc and you will do great! Gramajane

I think you have already answers to your question- I believe you said that you feel RIGHT about your mission but get questions and confusion about missing your boyfriend? Isn't THAT your answer? Also, I would be concerned that to have dated THAT long, and he hasn't asked to marry you or is not ready for marriage or a mission, that maybe HE has some serious issues with commitment? It is comfortable to stay with the same person, but is it BEST? Is it growth? How can you know if he is the best for YOU if you have not been dating others as the church suggests? --- a quote from The Best Two Years- (paraphrased) is "Your boyfriend may not wait, but your husband will". A mission helps you learn to get along with lots of different personalities and endure hardships with the rare heights of spiritual joy--- which can be a lot like marriage- it is a great preparation!

Also, if you call the church on a Sunday- any one in your town should work fine-- look in the yellow pages-- and the person answering the phone- (even in the foyer :) will probably be able to help you get the local missionaries number and from there you can set up what you would like. I think they would easily be able to find a members home near yours-- that you could meet in too. :) I'm happy for you to be seeking the truth! It is true- God has a prophet in our day, President Monson! Gramajane

It used to be I understand in the Catholic church that women had to wear some covering on their heads, and they even had little lace circles, and hats for women were considered totally right-- think of Jackie Kennedy, and Englands Queens and princesses even. for church though a small hat- like pill box type was best so as not to block others views if you wore a larger type. Scarves have for centuries been what European women would wear in public. Jewish women even wore wigs when they didn't need to -- I understand for the covering of the head thing. In the dark ages- people didn't get to bathe enough, and had head coverings of one kind or another, even to sleep in. I think we can figure out what is most fitting. I am rather sorry to see women wear pants to Sacrament meeting, week after week, (though they could get a nice skirt from a thrift store for under five dollars) -- still I totally believe Heavenly Father would rather they be in church in pants than not come! I'm sure not going to say or do anything to discourage their coming! I think it gets down to-- will your clothing distract yourself or others from the spirit and meaning of the meeting? -- For this reason- I am actually not for the extra fancy Easter dresser for little girls, as then they are thinking about their dresses instead of the meeting. I actually made sure my girls had (when needing new clothes for growth reasons) Spring dresses that they wore for the first time BEFORE Easter! :) Gramajane

I understand that what ends up the MOST fun- is actually doing REALLY needed service. I heard of one group who on mutual night planned different services for others (they had ideas from the Rel Soc President and Bishop) and one group went to a nursing home and asked the residents what they wished they had someone do for them- so some wrote letters for the residents, gave manicures to the ladies, and pedicures for the men, and some just listened, and wrote down for them things they wished others knew about them- some made little "about me" papers- to post above their beds- so the workers would see them more as people than as patients etc. some just went and visited shut ins (got permission and appointments ahead of time. I think when we do service for others (with our peers) that it is a win/win. :) painting fences etc is sure fun too- and so can even chopping wood be fun! Gramajane

that is so sad! Still I do believe that they were where they were supposed to be, and doing what they were supposed to be doing- so if God allowed them to "return" home to Him-- it must somehow be for the best-- but it is sure hard for all those who love them etc! Sometimes- the question can be asked- especially of missionaries-- 'would you be willing to die for the gospel?" and I think they would probably say yes- and just MAYBE-- this terrible happening will cause people to investigate the church and why they were there and maybe their message? Also- I believe that they will recieve all the blessing they would have had if they had remained longer on the earth. I understand that after Jesus comes again, and we have the thousand years of peace, that MUCH work "fixing" things will be done- like in the temples- where with their being in effect no longer a "veil" between this life and the afterlife-- that we will have the work done for those who we can't do now for lack of info- and *could* even seal those (with their directions) in marriage who didn't get to do that while they were alive. -- Ok- I totally AM way out beyond basic church doctrines-- but it works for me. :) God bless us all to trust that "all things work to the good of them that love the Lord". Gramajane

What bothers me MOST is when others who are NOT LDS- try to tell LDS what we believe (which it isn't!) as they read it in some anti book-! That just is so unfair-- straw man garbage (say/build something that looks somewhat like a man (the truth) but isn't and then "beat him" (show how it is wrong (of course it is!) which is easily done- as he is NOT the truth-. Do I "win" with the WORST things others say that is **** so **** frustrating? ; / Gramajane

I also like that we can (would be best to be) always "investigating" more truth -- as the article of faith says. I tell others that while I totally believe The Church of JESUS CHRIST of latter-day Saints is the true church with authority from God in the priesthood and lead by God through his living prophet today-- I am open to hearing what others believe they have found that they think is better. If this were not so-- how could I expect or hope them to be open to our message? There is so much wonderful knowledge that can bless our lives, that we need to keep on learning all our lives and beyond. Gramajane

The investigator is to have an interiview with (I think it is at least the Zone leader?) to help make sure they understand the covenants they are making and the barest basics of the gospel. I didn't read all the above, but I remember a scripture where an Ethopian (?) was in a chariat and had questions and the member was alongside and answered his questions and then the "investigator" said something that translated into "here is water (near a river?) why not baptize me now -- so they did!

I just read about how our bodies when without the essential amino acids- get into addictions-- because the addictions cause our brains to make FAKE chemicals that for a TIME make us feel better but it is the REAL naturally (when we were eating whole organic foods and didn't go on diets that made our bodies deprived of these essentialS!) in the body amino acids. So there is a NATURAL supplement that you can get even at Walmart- it is called 5-htp and it has helped me feel so much better-- my only addiction was food- but they use this (and others the book I read was the "Diet Cure" and a related by same author is Mood Cure- as they use these to help people with even drug, alcohol and tobacco addictions too! I think you might also benefit from watching a movie "Fireproof" (he got rid of his computer!) as the only way he was able to not be caught-- (plus he did positive things too) also get a priesthood blessing, and maybe if you don't like reading scriptures- can you have them audio instead of music? God bless you! gramajane

I think it is ONLY the person that knows they can be MORE right, by admitting WHEN they are wrong-- who is not afraid to admit they make mistakes. To be human is to err-- and to be Christlike we need to repent and if we can't admit we have done anything wrong then we can't repent-- so we are STUCK in the wrong! J Golden Kimball is to have said once, that though the brethern got upset with him slipping into the language he grew up with (a mule skinner) that he was ok as he claimed he "repented so 'damn' fast"! :) Me-- I find I am often mistaken, and I try to not take myself too seriously but quickly appologize, and sometimes I have to say "I'm sorry, that your feelings are hurt by ____. When I still believe in what ever I did. I'm sure thankful for the "Miracle of Forgiveness". Gramajane

"Jesus wept" is the shortest verse in the King James Bible-- and aren't we supposed to follow his example? Elder Eyering (sp?) of the 12 apostles also tears up quite frequently. I believe when YOU are also in the spirit-- if the one weeping also is-- then you will feel touched too. I have though had a VERY FEW times, (over my long years) when I felt that a person was "putting it on"-- that was an awful feeling! I sure felt sorry for them! sigh. Gramajane

I have encountered over the many years I have had discussions with other in real face to face and over the internet- (I'm 61) that there are those who have even just joined the church, to be able to SAY they WERE LDS. I have had some who say they left believing and going to the church- (but they keep their membership-- their reasoning is in doubt to me) and then they go on line and seem to do all they can to destroy the church! Some have claimed they were taught things totally contrary to church teachings--and granted some might have some new member teacher that does not teach doctrine-- but to then *insist* that what false doctrine they were taught *is* official church doctrine- though it contradicts the canonized standard works (KJV Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, & Pearl of Great Price) -- is so (as my sons would say) lame and bogus! Anyway-- it only makes sense to me-- if someone is wanting to learn about LDS -- which is the re-established original Christian church-- that they will go to a reliable source- and be happy to find something that didn't feel right to them-- to NOT be right-- not keep insisting that LDS *must* believe something that we all say we don't! -- just because some anti book said we do believe something. Anyway-- that is my two cents worth, from my own experiences with other. It HAS been wonderful over the years to find someone who REALLY wants to know what we believe, and will believe that we believe what we say we do. It has been so incredible to read/hear that some say that LDS have two different "doctrines" one that they SAY to non members that we believe, and another that we do believe-- sheeish-- how confusing would that be! It is hard enough to get the TRUE doctrines straight! I love the gospel of Jesus Christ and have felt my life blessed the closer I follow His teachings. Gramajane

I believe the best thing we can do is to treat others as the angles in heaven do -- which is that they can't lie or even act a lie -- as what is IN their hearts I understand is open for all to SEE. Share your truth with him. Treat others as God would like you to treat them with respect and TRUE love -- you would not break any commandments. How about you WRITE out your situation-- and let your deaf bishop read it? I will pray for you. -- In the long (and even short) run-- honesty is the ONLY way! You are cheating yourself and this guy too. also-- a guy you COULD love, may be out there waiting for you who WILL be one you would love to marry! It is Satan who want you to keep on with the "drug" high- of feeling powerful because of sexual attraction! -- You, and we ALL are worth way more than that! You can do this with Gods help. God bless you to choose the right! Gramajane

I feel that being accountable at age eight is right-- as they have usually gotten the "reasoning thing" down well enough- (and as Satan is after them to make downward leading choices it totally then works to have them baptized and confirmed at that age as then they can have the companionship of the Holy Ghost to guide them, because they have received the GIFT of the H.G. by the laying on of hands by one with the proper priesthood authority. --- I'm just thankful that we also have the miracle gift of repentance!

Oh, I should have added that I wrote to my husband for 1/2 a year (and the letters got more frequent and longer and then we added talk tapes etc) before I ever met him (he'd met my sister and asked if she had any sisters he could write to-- he was just off his mission and entering the Coast Guard) He told the guy in the bunk under him that he had found the girl he was going to marry after the FIRST letter he got from me, and after the 7th letter from him, I told my mother that I thought I would marry him. We didn't tell each other this "info" though till after we had met! Then also my mother had me fly to AK, (live with his folks for a month while he bunked on base-- as he got assigned to the town they lived in -- Kodiak, AK) to get to know him better-- as we had only been around each other for two weeks and 3 days-- but about a year writing by then. Anyway-- pleanty of highs and lows getting here but now things just get better! Gramajane