Cassiopeia

Actually, I think you might just be right about that. I think it's safe to say that stories passed from generation to generation are altered even unwittingly.

How can one be vain about wanting a child from one's own womb? If that is so then by your reckoning, every couple who seeks medical help to conceive are being vain. I don't see my opinion as over dramatic in the slightest. Nor am I feeling sensitive. Is my ability to see it from another side so disturbing you have to cast such judgmental statements on my words. I did not say there was anything wrong with adoption. I simply can understand someone wanting a child that is their biologically and of their own making.

If someone is flaunting their own abilities and going against the church leaders, I'd say that's disobedience not vanity. I so confused!

yeah what were you thinking?

huh. I didn't get that at all. :)

Oh I agree with you Dravin, but in the context of the discussion, having a baby and vanity are directly correlated to the physical appearance. Nothing is the same after conception and childbirth. Nothing. So in this instance I argue that if she were vain, she'd rather not get pregnant.

To the OP: This is where knowing yourself is the most important thing. Can Satan deceive us into having good feelings and doing something that isn't right for us? Only if we allow it. I look at it this way. I know the standards by which I want to live my life. If I am feeling persuaded to go against those standards I've set, then clearly I will have to be accountable and strong enough to turn away from that form of persuasion. I think there's a bit of folklore involved here. In the early years of my church membership I was told if I really wanted to be certain that my answers didn't come from Satan, I must pray in silence. Then someone said that Satan knows us as well as God does and can still deceive us. But the real danger if people will be accountable is from ourselves. When we ourselves act contrary to our own standards and beliefs we can lead ourselves to do something that isn't right. We can feel good about something that is bad because we convince ourselves it will be alright. I try to not give Satan a whole lot of credit for anything. I prefer to be responsible for the choices I make. I do believe that we feel and see the influence of evil around us and it is quite obvious. Then there's the subtle influences we might choose to ignore. I think that the measuring stick here, is to be true to your beliefs, be true to yourself and the standards you've adapted and keep your eye single to your purpose and just keep swimming.

I have a different take on this. I don't think we can take as literal all the things in the bible. We have to remember it is written by man, translated by man and interpreted by man. I don't believe that God caused those things to happen. I think the writer of those passages was trying to write an analogy and was given sway to hyperbole. Keep in mind, this is not church doctrine. This is something I've come to conclude through my studies in religion at the University of Cape Town, South Africa.

*hugs* I'm sorry you are in pain. I'm also sorry to hear you've had miscarriages. I wish I could help. All I can do is hug you again. *HUG*I herniated a disc in my back a few weeks back. it was almost healed and some dogs jumped on me re injuring it. I can't take a lot of pain pills either, so I know how hard it is. Hang in there. Oh and another *HUG*

A woman who resorts to artificial insemination is vain?? Seriously, a vain woman wouldn't have a child. I PROMISE YOU. She would rather not ruin her figure. I think it's completely reasonable for a woman who can't find a husband to marry to want to have a child born out of her own womb. I don't know if you realize this but it is completely heartbreaking to not find someone to be your eternal companion with. I don't know a single LDS woman who wouldn't rather have a husband. I've never met a woman from any walk of life that didn't want a man to have and to hold. So I think your opinion is based on something which you are completely misjudging and being unreasonable and harsh about.

ahahahahaha!!! I just woke up a half hour ago and I'm laughing so hard at this post my sore back is aching. Seriously, you are the bomb. I love your sense of humour. If it makes you feel any better, no one laughed at my God created us naked so we should go to church naked joke. *sobbing her heart out* I feel so unloved!

Well for me, because I've only been back a year since being gone for 7 years, it feels like pressure and I'm the sort that I'll just leave. The thing is, now she's not talking to me at all. *rolls eyes* Which is her loss. If she wants to be put out because I prefer not to be pressured into church attendance then she can request to visit a new sister.

You're kidding me right? This is the kind of thing people say that actually drive people from the church. A person can live the gospel standards and let that be the way in which they spread the gospel. I know when I tried to do missionary work with my family, I ended up homeless. There is NO way she is responsible for anything more than setting a good example and asking them if they are interested. Once asked it isn't a good thing to nag about it. Really, I can't believe you laid that guilt trip on her.

Have no fear, one day you will have all the family in the next world that you could want. Do your genealogy and temple work for those who have passed on and remember we have an entire millennium in which many wonderful things will come to pass. Heavenly Father will not punish you if your family never joins. That's not how a loving father acts. I promise you that it will all be okay. I have my three beautiful children I'm sealed to. I now have a cousin who is a member. I have done work for my grandparents on one side and my brother. I have personal witnesses that they've accepted the work done for them. Be at peace. I went through the temple at 21 without going on a mission or getting married and back in the 70's that was unheard of. I moved to Utah so my family wouldn't see my garments. I had plenty of people to go to the temple with. I didn't know them going in, but I met so many wonderful people there. If you'd like to have your endowments then talk to your Bishop.

Why? It's a medical procedure. Nothing immoral about it. I say if you want a child and you don't feel you have an prospects of getting married any time soon and you have the money for the procedures, go for it. Keep in mind though, being a single mom is very hard. VERY HARD. But you can do it.

I have been reading along and laughing my back side off. Crazy, you slay me. I wish I had your knack for hyperbole. But--but God created us naked. We should go to church...um...naked! (It's a joke people, don't burn me at the stake)I think the important thing to remember here is there IS a balance between appropriate church dress and even hair length. But more importantly is the reason behind what we do. If we are completely compliant because we are doing it out of fear or coercion, being compelled, it's as if we didn't do it at all. If we dress outside expected standards, are we doing it to rebel or is it really how comfortable we feel. The Lord loves us no matter how we dress or look. We just need to remember to pay respect where respect is due. And I for one, want a photo, crazypotatoe of that get up when you put it on.

I may not always like your approach, I tend to cut to the heart of a matter without the use of analogy but, I agree, that the God we should know and worship is not the God represented in the OT. He is a loving and kind God.

The Lord does not expect us to believe in what we can not comprehend. We are told that we can pray and search our hearts and one day we may comprehend it but until that day we do not have to believe in something until we have that witness. With the Lord and through the spirit, all things are possible to understand. It just take time and sometimes our time is not the Lord's. But blind obedience is not a great way to live the gospel or study the scriptures for it becomes our weakest link in the armor of God.

LOL..There's always one in every crowd. LOL I think it's only the Lord's place to EXPECT anything of us. The rest of us should be grateful for what we get. You might have asked him why he didn't make it more often?

Now I can see that. And I also have the flipside. I love my VT and HTs. Problem is, I have one visiting teacher who thinks it's okay to call me every sunday I miss church and blurt out, "I didn't see you in church today, why weren't you there?" I let it go for a long time this last year, but then it got to where I felt she was expecting me to be accountable to her for my attendance. And though I'm sure she didn't realize, it was intrusive. But I adore her. So I gave her a basket of lavender from my gardens, wrote a lovely note telling her how much I love and appreciate her. That I must ask her however to stop calling every time. (lately its been six weeks with my fibro and now my ruptured disc). I have a hometeacher who is rude and mean. I like it when he doesn't come. There's a cooperative effort between members and there's a fine line between expecting too much of each other or being too pushy.

With respect, I think you are expecting too much of them. Being an Elder's Quorum President doesn't mean he can answer you right then and there. And people have lives and jobs outside of church callings and attendance. This is hardly a reason for leaving the church.

That isn't how it works. When you deprive yourself of food on a regular basis your body slows its metabolic rate and stores the food you do eat in the event you do it again. My daughter is a certified personal trainer and she recommends that people plan three meals a week where they eat what they want and as much. She said that encourage both mind and body that all is well and it doesn't slow down your metabolism.

I really like your quote Ryanh. I had been looking for something like it. I've heard people say over and over again that people who leave just get offended too easily and that we shouldn't let ourselves get offended. But there's a flipside to that. People are not capable of controlling others actions and yes, we in our imperfections have and will do things that offend others. It is our responsibility as Latter-day Saints to examine our actions towards others and be accountable for what we do and say. Some offenses to others are so grievous that we cause others to stumble and falter in their faith. It is unthinkable that we can simply say, they shouldn't let someone offend them but put their trust in God and expect that to be simply done. I have a theory about being a new member. Those who join with faithful heart and sincere actions are often disillusioned by the actions of other members. They come through those doors with rose coloured glasses on and we in our ignorance of our own actions, rip them from them and shock them into reality. Have we forgotten that we have a sacred duty to not just spread the gospel of Jesus Christ but to also be loving, honest and forthright in our fellowship? It shouldn't be forced upon us, we should do it willingly. We aren't just here to convert but to support and sustain our new members as well. And in doing so, we ourselves are refreshed and renewed.

I- am a convert. So I'm fairly certain I can speak with authority on this. At least for myself anyway. I joined when I was 18. That's 34 years ago next week. Getting TO church isn't always the easiest thing when you first join depending on where you live. I wasn't inactive, I didn't leave the church. I lived 10 miles out of town and had no way of getting there if the nearest family wasn't going. Statistics lie. They tell us what we do and don't want to hear. The truth is, Everyone and that means converts and born in the church members leave for their own reasons and really I'd feel a lot more comfortable talking about why I left the church in 2002 but came back in 2009 if you all were converts and had similar experiences too. As is, when I was open in another thread, I got attacked. I don't know if you realize it but talking about people like this and speculating is offensive. I think it would be better if you ASKED converts directly about their reasons and experiences and not those who haven't never been a convert.

If I find church boring, I can promise you that it is more than likely I'm not in the mood to be there or I'm tired beyond belief.