Matthew0059

I appreciate it. I didn't think Snow wouldn't respond when he sees the post- I was somewhat surprised by your reply. I guess I'm not used to that kind of thing.

Well, I stand informed. Thanks for the information, Soulsearcher.

The LORD will begin the Earth's cleansing with a cleansing of the Saints; particularly (IMO) Utah.

You sound like Snow's handler. I was hoping for an answer from Snow himself.I'm still hoping for one.

I don't know. I've never heard of the Church having lobbyists. Hence the reason I'm asking for more information.I don't doubt so much as wonder if GaySaint applied a title that didn't exactly "fit the bill", so to speak.

Just curious-Do you think that Joseph Smith or Thomas S. Monson or the other prophets "KNOW" (or "KNEW")?

I don't think the FATHER would ever fall. Who is there to tempt HIM? After eons of immersing HIMSELF in the work of begetting and rearing children to exaltation (which is HIS glory), why would HE one day decide to throw it all away? I think the FATHER has overcome all opposition possible to reach HIS lofty estate. I don't think anything else exists that could overcome HIS power or even tempt HIM to cease being GOD.

My reasoning is as follows:-We're discussing events taking place in California -Those who live in California will likely be interested -I think there's something to Hemi's warning Ergo, I linked the thread. But I really don't want this thread to devolve into another argument about stewardship and visionaries... Maybe I should go delete my post.

"So-called" as in "that's what GaySaint called him/her".

Since we're talking about California... In my sad-sack opinion, it's too late to really change things. The die have been cast- and California has much, much bigger problems (like going bankrupt).

I'd like more information on this so-called 'lobbyist'.

Possibly. You meant this as a ludicrous scenario, but there is a legitimate issue here. Because we're under the law of tithing, a rich member can pay a full tithe and get away with living in the lap of luxury while his fellow members go hungry. There is ALWAYS more to the story- but if the reason for having the automobile is 'this is a symbol of my wealth and power, therefore I use it', that man is sinning.Such a man, unless he repents, could not live in a Zion society Agreed. I find it interesting, though, that virtually everyone on this thread who takes that stance also defends purely cosmetic surgery.

I'm not sure I follow. To my knowledge, the rift in the ward in discussion is over the appropriateness of the breast implants. While some may covet and therefore be jealous and, in their jealousy, oppose the implants, that's not the major issue.And you are making judgments of the people in the ward. Perhaps you don't say they're "shallow", but you have made it known that you'd "rather [live in] a ward full of women with boob jobs, and unwashed teens in jeans. Than a ward that has so little love for each other they have to complain about another woman's mammory glands". Behind that sentence is the conclusion that any ward that is divided so is a ward full of people lacking in a key Christlike attribute- love. The kicker is that you may be right- yet in your "rightness" you make assumptions based on incomplete data to come to a harsh conclusion and, ironically, do the exact thing you accuse them of. My main contention is that jumping all the way to the other side of the argument- that cosmetic breast jobs are totally fine- is just as wrong. In the OP's scenario, the ward may very well be full of shallow people who don't love each other- but that doesn't vindicate the woman. Does that all make sense? I'm tired and might not be thinking straight.

That's not quite accurate. I don't see a problem with minor accessorizing to accentuate one's natural beauty- it is to accentuate sexuality that I have a problem with. Personally, I like my girls' face with minimal or no makeup, natural hair color, small earrings (if any), no more than 1-2 rings on her fingers... As I said before, though, the key difference between breast implants and what you've listed is the aspect of appearance being enhanced.I believe a lot of what members take for granted that isn't sin actually is. And no, I'm not married. Not that I'm not trying...

bigsis7- You seem to have been reading the anti-LDS material. You mentioned surfing the internet looking for information. First of all- everything in its proper time and place. You will learn, in time, the answer to your questions. There is nothing wrong in seeking answers on your own, but remember to go to the right sources (have you studied and prayed about the Book of Mormon yet?) and avoid the wrong sources (every anti-Mormon source has a pre-determined answer- there are no honest truth seekers among them). Avoid anything that makes you feel down and depressed- those are symptoms of falsehood. As for Patriarchal Blessings- "vague" is in the eye of the beholder. I just learned something about myself a week ago that dramatically alters the perception I previously had of an entire paragraph in mine. If you seek the LORD'S righteousness, you will have all your questions answered, and more. Don't give up. :)

Are they complaining about her breasts- or her worldly desires to have more sexually enticing breasts; or to gain acceptance from the world?Oftimes it is love for another that moves us to concern when we see them commit folly. Contention is of the devil, but I think an anxiousness that all should have eternal life through CHRIST is charity- and being pained when others sin is part of that anxiousness. That the members of the ward allowed a division to occur and themselves to be split, is tragic. We don't know the whole story though- judging them as shallow and unloving is as great a folly as the one they are accused of.

QFT.froggy, I've been a member my whole life, am 23, and haven't served a mission because I have severe depression- too severe to serve. I've never lived in Utah, but I have NEVER met a worthwhile girl who had an issue with my non-RM status. The importance is seeking the LORD'S righteousness and finding out what you were foreordained to do. This is done by moving forward, following the advice of the GA's and local priesthood leaders, constant prayer and frequent, regular scripture study, and constant repentance. If you were meant to go on a mission, your desire to serve one will grow as you grow closer to the LORD. Move forward with a plan- discuss things with your bishop, continue your education (or begin it, if you desire) and most of all live WORTHILY to receive propmptings from the Holy Ghost. You will figure it all out.

May we all watch diligently to the end of our lives to avoid the same fate...

Church lobbyist?

Never mind, I have no response. I was going to play a drawn out game to teach a principle here, but I'm too tired.In essence, when someone blatantly defies the warnings and advice from inspired Church leaders, it has a largely detrimental effect on the "flock" (ward) that rebel is with. A truly Zion people have "all [material] things in common". While there would be some pride present among the members of the ward who get frustrated with the breast implants, that doesn't excuse the vanity of purely cosmetic implants. Even getting them to find a more positive social image (to avoid stereotyping of a "sex object" if a woman's breasts are big, or to improve self-esteem if the breasts are small), it is for the world- not for the LORD- that the woman is getting them. In otherwords, it is because of vanity (gratifying one's pride). So who's in the wrong? The more important question is: who's in the right? Are any of them?

To everyone who blames the ward members themselves for the division of the ward: Can I grow my hair long and shaggy, wear an old and dirty T-shirt with giant pit stains and raggedy jeans, stop showering for a month, go to Church, and blame everyone else who gets frustrated/angry with me because they should use their agency to find it in their hearts to forgive my inappropriate choice of dress? Think really hard about that one, because I have the best answers for why your response (whatever it is) is wrong.

[Gives up trying to get the thread closed. For now.] If you approach the LORD, and try to live every day of your life with an eternal perspective, you will learn the answer. This is not the kind of an answer that you can be taught- you have to approach the FATHER in prayer, and let the atonement of CHRIST work within you and teach you.You can read Justice's post as a starting-off point. GOD bless.

Bingo.Also, it was the husband's responsibility to bring the fact his wife isn't a virgin to her parents. If the husband does not "hate" (read: despise) his wife, he isn't under obligation to tell. There is room for forgiveness in the law, methinks. However, we have to remember that Israel was under the (very demanding) Law of Moses, given because Israel was "stiffnecked". Stubborn, rebellious children have to be met with harsh discipline, or they do not listen.

I agree with Hemidakota's suggestion: watch the GA's and learn from their example (or the GA's wives). Personally, I don't understand the desire for men to wear long hair. I think it looks ridiculous. However, I'm also ultra-conservative in dress and appearance (I like my girls in absolutely-no-cleavage, not-too-right shirts and form-fitting-but-not-so-tight-I-can-see-every-curve jeans or knee-length-or-longer skirts, thank you very much). We need to be careful that the reason we're not conforming to the normal standard is because of individualism, one of Satan's great counterfeits.* However, if a man's father whom he loved wore long hair, and that man therefore had an affinity and desire for long hair, and that desire did not conflict with his relationship with the SAVIOR, who am I to judge? I will let CHRIST work out that issue with that man, if it is needed. I echo Hemidakota's suggestion, though: follow the example set by the GA's. Therein lies safety and more peace. *"ndividualism—the false idea that personal identity, space, rights, development, and well-being must take place in opposition to the claims of family ties and relationships. This translates in attitude and action to mean that my life and my sexual feelings are my business. Only I know what is best for me. Nobody can tell me what to do." Truths of Moral Purity

Ouch... I hope you are able to find something. God bless. Do you have a plan on going forward?