slamjet

Oh boy, why did I get a sudden chill up my spine? I sense more "yes dears" are in my future.

1) Doctor's & hospitals are not impossible to sue. Working in the health care industry, I've seen lawsuits for the mundane "I tripped" to the more serious "your treatment hurt me." It's quantifying as to where the liability lies that's the difficulty. 2) And they have procedures and protocols for when this happens. And if it becomes even more serious, then emergency c-section can be done. I can see where having a home birth limits available emergency options. 3) I'd like to see statistics and/or reports about this one. 4) If you are talking about Family Services, then I couldn't agree more. 5) I'm not sure how that works in here. What were the complications? Was it an infection gotten after the delivery or a congenital condition? More info is needed to make the conclusion if it's a real worry or not. 6) Yes, and so are the consequences. Is there a state law that limits the scope of what a mid-wife can do? Is there a state law that limits under what conditions a home-birth can be performed? 7) Again, I'd like to see stats on breech deliveries and home births. Again, in a hospital there are more options in case something goes wrong. It just seems to me that there are large holes of information that are missing. To jump to the conclusion that Family Services is evil because of what they did just on what you told us here is premature. Although, one can say what is the harm to the child once it is born and healthy? I've dealt with a lot of DCFS folks and the issue of taking the child from the home is a judgment call and always a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. It's gotten to the point that they've become gun-shy and the children are suffering from it. So they stick with the letter of the law. And that's most likely what happened here. And even when they did that, they get smacked. There are two sides to every story.

Boy's are idiots Girls are weird. That's how it goes with my kids.

Kind of sounds like what I taught my daughters from very young... "Boys are idiots." Thus far, it has explained and lessened the trauma of all the strange behaviors they've had to endure in school.

Ok, I'll start by changing my avatar.

I'm not sure what you are asking? From your post it seems like: - You are strong and active in the church. - You were smacked with trials and tribulations and are working through them. - You are in a stable marriage, stable enough to adopt more children. - You are gainfully employed. If it's a trust issue, well, I'm not sure because you have enough trust in you to remarry and adopt. But it sure seems like you got tested to your ability and you still stayed faithful and optimistic. If you're searching for direction, well, it looks like you're pointed the right way.

Her Father-In-Law seems like a very level headed guy. He's not blinded by this being his son, but is trying to be real. As for you, I sure wish I had a friend like you. You're great. As for the situation, I'm getting a sense that you're pointing in the right direction. When crisis's come up, we tend to isolate ourselves. Allowing members and friends visits is a big step and will go a long ways in her healing process. I also want to thank you for not blaming her Church for this mess, but working with it to help her. For letting the Church members come around to help and be with her. I think it's great that you are truly being a huge help for her. I'm also really impressed that you let her husband in. I know it's hard to be civil, but to let him under your roof after all that you've told us is really remarkable. It truly shows you are staying out of the nuances of the situation (doing your best not to be a judge and jury), but caring about her and her well being. I'd make it a rule and I'm sure you already have) that maybe for now he not be there unless there's a "chaperon," like his father with him. That way there's someone to not only keep things down to a mild roar, but strong enough to end the visit if and when things go bad, like it seems like it did. I'm getting a sense that you are going about this the right way. I know in this situation it's hard to remember that we have a Father in Heaven who loves us not only as a human race, but he knows each one of us as an individual and truly want's whats best for us. I know from what I've seen with my own ex-wife when I was running amok that he truly blesses and cares for mothers who are true to the faith, protecting and caring for their children and seeking him out for guidance. Please keep reminding her of this. It may not seem like there's much of God there now, but there is. He's a lot more involved in our lives than we think. You are an angel sent from God to her. How much more proof does a person need? And don't worry about being a non-member and posting to this forum. We accept and listen to all.

But it has not been established whether that's good or bad

Cool! I have a new friend!

There are a few things that preclude me from volunteering. Unfortunately, that is not a viable option for me.

Would the bond be complete if I told you I'm an Eagle Scout myself?

Yes, dear.

I have no idea how to respond to this.

Or I should say the Christmas season. It seems that if it's a bad thing going to happen, it's going to be in December. And this year is no different. I went to this past Sacrament meeting and enjoyed feeling the spirit of Christmas, but it was so fleeting for me. So what's to hate about this December? In no particular order: - Still under-employed with little hope of changing that, not with my record. - Still X'd from the church. - Still get to hear about all my kids performances and fun while I'm sitting 1600 miles away from them. - Got my front tooth broken. Don't have the $$$ to get it fixed. - Car transmission is starting to slip. - Told by "girlfriend" that she wants to break up because I'm embarrassing to be around (I'm a big boy). While this can be a blessing, it still hurts. - Another year of no family (making it seven). All this and more piled up in one months time. All-in-all, a reminder of how I nuked my marriage, broke the law, and generally gave myself a whole heap of stuff to overcome. Yea, I can be pathetic at times.

I'm sorry dear, I'll try harder to behave

You know, using OP may be inappropriate. It could be taken to mean Ocean Pacific, Other Properties, Others Property, Old Person, Obnoxious Person, Order of Preachers, Out of Power, Observing Platitudes, Etc.

I wouldn't say it's thin skinned, but cautious. To come out with a question regarding the Book Of Mormon in a tone that can be taken as looking for fault brings up red flags. It kind of goes against the unwritten rule of general forum decorum: lurk to see what the forum is about, dabble a bit to build re-pour, then ask away.

I'm not following you...

I'm dubious of anyone saying that we are the "scum of the earth" and that we are the "most evil of Gods creation." It really smacks of what President Benson said "There is, however, a far more common ailment among us—and that is pride from the bottom looking up. " To me, this is an irrelevant way to look at things. If we really thought about it, God is so much more involved in our lives individually and as a human family than we realize. Would he do that to a people, or a person labeled as "scum?" Regardless of the labels we use, we are still precious in his sight. So let's just jettison the "scum" label and shoot for the "Christlike" label.

And if the family doesn't want amends short of death? What is he to do? Being in his shoes (not murder, but I wronged a lot of people) I can understand and I can assure you that he most likely has thought about it a lot. I would like to make amends, but the other persons don't want to hear it, see me, or deal with in any way with me. Matter of fact, I'm still being blamed for everything that has, can, or could go wrong in this, if not these persons lives. Am I suppose to put my life on hold until these people comes around? Am I suppose to be in sackcloth and ashes until these people forgive me? It took me a while, but I answered "NO." For other people to forgive me is their choice, not something I can control so I progressed and moved on. If the other person want's to live in a state of bitterness and blame, that's their choice. It's taken a lot of years until I forgave myself. I'm not going to pin my progress on other people's forgiveness of me. Nor should this Pastor. Nor should anyone else.

What I find scary is the number of folks who take not having pre-marital sex to it's limit, so to speak (yea, I'll admit to being one of them who got figuratively slapped back pretty hard). My oldest is in BYU. If there is ever a place where kids are pushing the line, it's there. She told me the other day that she sees steamed up cars all the time from kids trying to stay "chaste." To her, and to me, these kids have not committed to the idea of chastity. A commitment means not to push the line, but to stay well away from it. She also told me that she couldn't go on a date there because that signals you want to get married right away. She's not up for that yet.

Mine was a 5 month courtship. We'd still be married, if only I wasn't such an, well, keep it clean, JERK! But we're still good friends. Go figure.

It's also a sign that she never really dealt with it in the first place. I'm not sure how betrayed she should feel if she knew this was out there. And as for her husbands coldness to the situation, I can only surmise that he's compartmentalizing it (a typical man thing to do) because he's confused and lost about this situation. He understood one thing then out of the blue, something else. It's a tough thing to digest. I'd stick with the original advice and mightynancy's advice. Don't get between them, don't get deeply involved, and if you want to give some advice, right now she needs to take care of herself before she deals with her husband. Have her regularly see and talk to her Bishop. Also, if possible, have her see a professional counselor. Make sure she attends church, read her scriptures and pray regularly. It may sound overly simple, but I can assure you that when life gets all out of whack and complicated, those simple acts create miraculous effects. You're doing a kind, nice, caring thing by letting her stay with you. It's a mark of a true friend. But a true friend also knows when to back down a bit and let things advance naturally and not try to steer them. For right now, she needs to take care of, and heal herself. It will be wonderful if her marriage survives. But this is something she needs to come to on her own. I know it's painful to watch it all unfold. But your willingness to do so will be a benefit to her in the long run.

Welcome! Jump right in.

Thank you for bringing back bad memories of dealing with parents when I was an Assistant Scoutmaster in charge of the 11 year olds. But at least over half of my boys (10 of them) went on to become eagles.