estradling75

A lot of gymantics because we still have not found a better definition of wealthy other then "more then I have".
 
Lets take the example TFP gave us and expand it both ways
 
If someone said his wife found a $3000 watch and got a good deal to bring it down to $750 and bought it as a gift for her husband...  Well most of would agree that she got a good deal but we would clutch our hearts at the idea of paying $750 for a watch.
 
TFP story is a $300 watch for $75 and he seems ok with that.  It does seem to be a good deal.  But I can't help but think I am not the only one going "seventy five dollars for a watch???"
 
Whereas if my wife found me a $30 watch for $7.50 I'd be all like "score" and "totally worth it".  But I am also sure there would be people who would think there was something better that my wife  could have spent that $7.50 on.
 
We are all going to find reason why what we want is ok but why someone else is over the line

I can't really answer this question without being a pretty solid hypocrite  given my story.
What I think is a good idea and what I really did has a large disconnect

I know you asked TFP  and he answered but I would like to share my experience with exactly this question
 
When I returned home from my mission I had a plan.  I knew I wanted a family and I knew I needed to be able to support them.  So I figured out what I wanted to do and picked a school that would help me get the skills I needed. (It also had a good track record of job placement on graduation)
 
Before my mission I was a socially awkward nerd... a mission knocked a lot of the rough edges off  but I still figured it would take me a few years of dating before I found a wife.  Which meant that if I dated during school the time should be just about right.
 
I liked the plan.  I thought it had everything covered.  So I locked it down and went to work.
 
I met the future sister estradling75 about three months after getting home from my mission.  I had barely gotten started on my plan.  Due to her personal status she quickly got confirmation that I was the one for her.  She did not tell me this, but things got intense between us fast any ways.
 
She totally messed up my plan.  I fought against it.  The fight drove me to my knees.  I tried to deny her and send her away, she was wiser then me and held on anyways.  When I couldn't deny,  I tried to delay.  I knew I was no where near ready. So I tried to say sure its her and we can do something about it in a couple of years when I am ready. (In retrospect not a wise idea and I am not surprised now that it was shutdown).  I wanted the Lord to give me the answer I wanted to hear.  So I fought against everything else.  I mean,  I thought I was doing the right thing, following the councils being prepared and all that.
 
In end the Lord pretty much impressed upon my mind that I had a choice.  I could accept what he had planned for me or I could try doing it my way if I really really really wanted to.  I would like to think that I am not totally stupid.  I got the message finally.  I knew that I still wasn't ready, but well, I needed to push forward anyways.
 
We got married, and there was no miracle that suddenly made the finances work..  We lived with my mother-in-law (and yes it was that bad), but in the bad moments I knew I was exactly where the Lord wanted me to be and that was enough.  My plan continued to roll on and with big exception of getting married early it pretty much went flawlessly.  I got a job, the money got better, and we moved into our own home.
 
So I think it is very clear that I am a big fan of being ready...  But we should not be so locked in to being ready that we miss the times the Lord tells us we need to take a Leap of Faith.  In my case it was in the timing of getting married, for other it might be the timing of having kids.  For others when it comes it might have nothing to do with their family but be on a totally different subject.
 
 Of course being ready to take that Leap does not mean we just jump out whenever we feel like it.  But only when the Lord Guides us to that point.

I know you asked TFP  and he answered but I would like to share my experience with exactly this question
 
When I returned home from my mission I had a plan.  I knew I wanted a family and I knew I needed to be able to support them.  So I figured out what I wanted to do and picked a school that would help me get the skills I needed. (It also had a good track record of job placement on graduation)
 
Before my mission I was a socially awkward nerd... a mission knocked a lot of the rough edges off  but I still figured it would take me a few years of dating before I found a wife.  Which meant that if I dated during school the time should be just about right.
 
I liked the plan.  I thought it had everything covered.  So I locked it down and went to work.
 
I met the future sister estradling75 about three months after getting home from my mission.  I had barely gotten started on my plan.  Due to her personal status she quickly got confirmation that I was the one for her.  She did not tell me this, but things got intense between us fast any ways.
 
She totally messed up my plan.  I fought against it.  The fight drove me to my knees.  I tried to deny her and send her away, she was wiser then me and held on anyways.  When I couldn't deny,  I tried to delay.  I knew I was no where near ready. So I tried to say sure its her and we can do something about it in a couple of years when I am ready. (In retrospect not a wise idea and I am not surprised now that it was shutdown).  I wanted the Lord to give me the answer I wanted to hear.  So I fought against everything else.  I mean,  I thought I was doing the right thing, following the councils being prepared and all that.
 
In end the Lord pretty much impressed upon my mind that I had a choice.  I could accept what he had planned for me or I could try doing it my way if I really really really wanted to.  I would like to think that I am not totally stupid.  I got the message finally.  I knew that I still wasn't ready, but well, I needed to push forward anyways.
 
We got married, and there was no miracle that suddenly made the finances work..  We lived with my mother-in-law (and yes it was that bad), but in the bad moments I knew I was exactly where the Lord wanted me to be and that was enough.  My plan continued to roll on and with big exception of getting married early it pretty much went flawlessly.  I got a job, the money got better, and we moved into our own home.
 
So I think it is very clear that I am a big fan of being ready...  But we should not be so locked in to being ready that we miss the times the Lord tells us we need to take a Leap of Faith.  In my case it was in the timing of getting married, for other it might be the timing of having kids.  For others when it comes it might have nothing to do with their family but be on a totally different subject.
 
 Of course being ready to take that Leap does not mean we just jump out whenever we feel like it.  But only when the Lord Guides us to that point.

Culture based on a flawed understanding of principals is of course going to be be flawed.
 
The problem is (as amply shown in this thread even) that when one sees and tries to nudge people down the straight and narrow path is that they tend to over react.  They assume you mean it to go to the other extreme.  Then they either go to the other extreme or do their own nudge back the other way (which is seen as another over reaction)

Culture based on a flawed understanding of principals is of course going to be be flawed.
 
The problem is (as amply shown in this thread even) that when one sees and tries to nudge people down the straight and narrow path is that they tend to over react.  They assume you mean it to go to the other extreme.  Then they either go to the other extreme or do their own nudge back the other way (which is seen as another over reaction)

Which I covered when I said
 
 
 
The first group tends to let the World set their priorities or have some kind of fear of the idea.  Which is why they get the first message
 
The second group tends to hear the message for the first group and take it much farther then intended.  Such over reaction is what the second message is designed to correct.
 
Instead of the messages conflicting they both point to the same goal.  Preparing a person to get married and have kids

I think before we can really discuss this we need to define wealthy.... because that is such a fluid and subjective number.  Most people would define it as "More then I make"
 
In the scriptures the Lord seems to see three categories wealth.
 
The Needy.  Those that can not provide for the basic needs of their life.
The Poor.  Those that can provide for their basic needs but no more.
The Rich.  Everyone else.
 
Most people (myself included) don't like this, because we don't feel Rich.  But when we look at it we really don't meet the definition of Poor or Needy.
 
But if we accept that as the definitions then very much yes the Lord expect and wants us to be 'Rich' we simply have to adjust our expectation to what Rich really means.

I (mostly)agree with this.   Seems to me that the Church is being very clear on its messages which I see are.  "Don't forget that marriage and family should and need to be a priority" and "Don't be stupid about how you pursue the priority of Marriage and family."   I see it as a very constant message, but ones focused to different groups of people
 
  I think a lot of people allow very worldly notions of what it takes to be self-sufficient and independent.  I think way to many try to do it all at once instead of understanding that Marriage and Families build over time.  A person does not need to be able to afford a stay at home spouse, and pay for 6 missions/schooling/marriages before they can even think about asking someone to marry them.  In fact for that very first step (getting married) the ability of both people to independently provide for their own needs is more then enough to cover married life.  Two people can live together more cheaply then two people can live apart.  So if both are independent then marriage should be a quality of life increase.  At least until they start adjusting things to prepare to have kids.
 
That is usually when they go from being two independent adults to two interdependent adults.  This stereotypically takes the form of the guy providing the income and the lady providing the full time care for very dependent babies.  That is usually when the money stress really hits (on top of the stress of a new kid).  Lets face it adding a new dependent does require the families resources to be diverted from else where.  Those resources need to be there.  But at the same time if we avoid trying to keep up with the more worldly demands and definitions then we are more likely to see that we do have enough 

The answer to your question I think lies in the lost of perspective.
 
From what we are taught and believe we have existed for a long time before this mortal experience and we will exist for a long time after.  This makes mortality a mere moment in our existence.  Yet it requires faith to understand and accept this.  When our faith is weak(and we are all weak from time to time especially when suffering)  mortality looms large in our thoughts as the end all and be all of existence.
 
So lets reference a few of the many examples of this.  In the Old Testament lets go with Job.  He was a good and righteous man.  He lost all his lands and wealth, his kids died, and his friends turned on him. He was brought low and he suffered.  It must of seemed like forever while he was going through it.  Yet in the end he recovered.
 
Then we have the New Testament...  Let go with Paul.  He had his thorn in the flesh (which he wished would go away) he got imprisoned, stoned, and persecuted.  Yet he seemed to hold the perspective to the point where he claimed his sufferings were an honor to have.  (Seriously???  An honor??? That is hardcore faith there)
 
In the Book of Mormon we can go with the First Nephi.  His brothers attacked him, he was forced to leave his home behind, he knew his people would fail.  Yet he continued on is faith and prevailed.
 
Now lets go more modern to Joseph Smith.  Again persecution, attacks, imprisonment, and so on.  In Liberty Jail he pretty much asked your same question.  And I think we should all take the Lords answer and liken it unto ourselves
 
This is an awesome promise from Christ.  Who also did not deserve the suffering, the betrayal, the imprisonment, and death he faced.  Christ even asked if there was some other way to do what needed to be done, so he didn't have to suffer.  Yet in the end he endured and gained the promised blessings.
 
So don't feel bad that you are suffering and wish there was another way, that is common.  But do hold on to your faith and know that even if it lasts for all of your mortal existence, it is but for a small moment.
 
Believe Christ will turn to your suffering to your blessing and he has it all under control.  This knowledge can bring Joy and Peace even when we also suffer.

If one finds ones membership is more valuable as a tool for political protest then having it... well then I think it is time to resign it.

If one finds ones membership is more valuable as a tool for political protest then having it... well then I think it is time to resign it.

If one finds ones membership is more valuable as a tool for political protest then having it... well then I think it is time to resign it.

If one finds ones membership is more valuable as a tool for political protest then having it... well then I think it is time to resign it.

If one finds ones membership is more valuable as a tool for political protest then having it... well then I think it is time to resign it.

If one finds ones membership is more valuable as a tool for political protest then having it... well then I think it is time to resign it.

It is a leap...  The Folk Prophet gave the biblical standard for Modesty.  Which a sleeveless sundress could qualify under.  But this group is largely LDS... And we have temple garments.  For the temple garment wearing group, modesty includes keeping the the temple garment covered, because that is the promise we made.
 
That sets a very clear standard for us.  It is however human nature to take what we think is right and correct for us and apply it to everyone else.  Many times this works just fine, and of course we want to teach our kids this standard to prepare them for the temple.  But it can in the course of being taught also distort to the idea that a sleeveless sun dress woman is (as you linked together) "without principle".
 
That would be a failure in judgment/teaching/understanding etc.

You are reading my statement of 'fair game' as an absolute.  Whereas I used it to try to describe a mindset or the emotional response.   A guy simply does not have to have the same level of self control with his wife.  This is not the same as saying he has none.  Its simply goes from what should be an absolute to one based on context, personality, and personal preferences (Both his and hers).  For most guys that is a hugely profound difference, which 'fair game' sums up decently well.

You are reading my statement of 'fair game' as an absolute.  Whereas I used it to try to describe a mindset or the emotional response.   A guy simply does not have to have the same level of self control with his wife.  This is not the same as saying he has none.  Its simply goes from what should be an absolute to one based on context, personality, and personal preferences (Both his and hers).  For most guys that is a hugely profound difference, which 'fair game' sums up decently well.

I think they are trying to teach a valid idea...  But that the idea gets distorted into blame an fault finding.
 
Lets remove clothing as a factor and go generic.  The idea is that we all influence each other by our actions.   The people influenced have a choice on how they respond to that influence though, and they have full responsibility for that choice. 
 
But sometimes we need to ask ourselves some serious questions about the influence we have have on others due to the choices we make.

Many people miss the point and go there...  I think the point is... If we know our actions are going to influence others a certain way (for good or ill) and we choose to take that action then we bear the responsibility for what we knowingly did.  Its is still our action and our choice that we are held for.  Just like the people we influenced are held to what they do

I think they are trying to teach a valid idea...  But that the idea gets distorted into blame an fault finding.
 
Lets remove clothing as a factor and go generic.  The idea is that we all influence each other by our actions.   The people influenced have a choice on how they respond to that influence though, and they have full responsibility for that choice. 
 
But sometimes we need to ask ourselves some serious questions about the influence we have have on others due to the choices we make.

Yes we should...  But we need to learn to deal with it in our youth... and that requires instructions, guidance, direction from (hopefully) more wise adults.  And that brings us back full circle to teaching the youth what it means to be modest and how to do so effectively. 

Samuel would only show up if the Lord sent him.  (the witch has no power in that)
 
To make it work we would have to ponder on the why the Lord might do so, and on that I have an idea.
Saul was desperate for an answer. He tried the proper channels and was rejected due to his sins. Instead of taking this as a sign to repent Saul continued to try to force the issue by going contrary to the expressed will of God.
 
We know that God will answer all prayers.  Sometimes though we don't like the answer so we keep asking anyways.  Its possible that when we do this that the Lord will give us what we want, and it will condemn us more fully. (Example the lost 116 pages)  We get what we wanted and quickly learn why the God said no in the first place.
 
I could see that happening here with Saul.  God gave him exactly what he wanted to his further condemnation

That is a possibility...  We agree that there is a sense of loss running behind it... and I could be reading more into it then he intended.