clwnuke

@mikbone I believe that one source of confusion for your brother is when the issue is boiled down to the basic statement above. The question is follow what? Let's condense the two statements down to the possible "what" portions: January 12th 2021 In word and deed, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has supported vaccinations for generations. As a prominent component of our humanitarian efforts, the Church has funded, distributed and administered life-saving vaccines throughout the world. Vaccinations have helped curb or eliminate devastating communicable diseases, such as polio, diphtheria, tetanus, smallpox and measles. Vaccinations administered by competent medical professionals protect health and preserve life. As this pandemic spread across the world, the Church immediately canceled meetings, closed temples, and restricted other activities because of our desire to be good global citizens and do our part to fight the pandemic. Now, COVID-19 vaccines that many have worked, prayed, and fasted for are being developed, and some are being provided. Under the guidelines issued by local health officials, vaccinations were first offered to health care workers, first responders, and other high-priority recipients. Because of their age, Senior Church leaders over 70 now welcome the opportunity to be vaccinated. As appropriate opportunities become available, the Church urges its members, employees and missionaries to be good global citizens and help quell the pandemic by safeguarding themselves and others through immunization. Individuals are responsible to make their own decisions about vaccination. In making that determination, we recommend that, where possible, they counsel with a competent medical professional about their personal circumstances and needs. _________ August 12th 2021 We find ourselves fighting a war against the ravages of COVID-19 and its variants, an unrelenting pandemic. We want to do all we can to limit the spread of these viruses. We know that protection from the diseases they cause can only be achieved by immunizing a very high percentage of the population. To limit exposure to these viruses, we urge the use of face masks in public meetings whenever social distancing is not possible. To provide personal protection from such severe infections, we urge individuals to be vaccinated. Available vaccines have proven to be both safe and effective. We can win this war if everyone will follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders. Please know of our sincere love and great concern for all of God’s children. ___________________ Now let's analyze the action words "urge" and "recommend". Is this a mandate, or a command to "follow"? No, not in the strict sense. I think you could possibly classify it as an "instruction", but if you call the Church office building and ask that question you will be given a clear statement that there is no requirement for members to be vaccinated. They will refer you back to the portion in red above. So per the statements and church instruction: #1 - The Church is not responsible for your health care, you are. #2: - If people choose to be vaccinated it should not be because President Russell M. Nelson was vaccinated, it's because you read his urging and recommendation, and you discussed the matter with your spouse (which was mentioned in the original release letter reporting), sought competent medical advice, and determined what was correct for your "personal circumstances and needs". Everything else is pride loudly proclaiming "I'm more righteous than you because I don't need to be commanded in all things!" IMHO, there would have been no reason to add the language "In making that determination ..," to the original statement if it was pre-determined what the "correct" outcome should be. The bottom line to me is that everyone who considered the issue carefully, and reached a personal decision to either be vaccinated or not, has followed the Prophet. So when you brother says "Your either follow or don't" I believe he is mistaken in what we were actually supposed to do. Joseph Smith still had an occasional beer or wine after the Word of Wisdom was revealed, because it was not yet a requirement of the Church to follow. That doesn't shock me, but it does sometimes shock other people until they understand the Spirit in which the Word of Wisdom was given. It wasn't black or white. I firmly believe that I have followed the counsel given, and I am at complete spiritual peace with my determination to be vaccinated once the Covaxin or Novavax vaccines are available in the United States. Until that time, I mask, I wash, I respect others - and I have not infected a single individual (if the antibody tests are reasonably accurate) - which is more than many vaccinated people can say. At some point I'm sure I will get Covid, and when I do I will isolate. I feel that I am doing my part. I don't know your brother, but I think most people can see the issue in a broader perspective if given the chance. I share your hope that your brother might feel God's love once again and return to the safety and peace of the True Shepherd's fold. Curiosity question: Of your family members who are currently inactive, do any of them still believe in the doctrine that they are sons and daughters of God? I find that this specific doctrine seems to have a particular holding power among many who have left Church activity.

Just for the record - I do have a legal prescription for Ivermectin, and a supply on hand in case I get COVID. It has become too expensive to take prophylactically (demand has doubled the price in recent weeks), but I have taken the recommended dosage. Ivermectin is tasteless, and most people probably won't notice anything after taking it unless they are sick to begin with.

Agreed.

They came so close!

It's tough to play in that Florida heat and humidity. On to overtime ..,

KISS great? They were definitely interesting .., Florida Gators? Yea, I can roll with that one, especially if they are playing Florida State! Tim Tebow? I love the guy and lots of terrible NFL teams should have hired him just to increase profits IMHO. Who cares if they win, football is a business. Baseball? Love to play it, but attending one A's game a year and watching highlights from the last game of the World Series is enough for me. As a teen we did love attending Seattle Mariners games because tickets were practically free, and there was no pressure to win because they were already mathematically out of contention. Horror Movies? Just Alien and Aliens. Books? Yes, as long as there are lots of pictures

'Rolling Stone' Caught Peddling Fake News About Ivermectin 'Horse Dewormer' Overdoses Overwhelming ERs https://pjmedia.com/uncategorized/megan-fox/2021/09/05/rolling-stone-caught-peddling-fake-news-about-non-existent-ivermectin-overdoses-but-hasnt-even-corrected-the-headline-n1476231 "Rolling Stone magazine is in hot water for publishing fake news about an alleged rash of Ivermectin overdoses that they reported were taking over the emergency rooms in Oklahoma." " .., the story was totally false. The doctor Rolling Stone quoted, Dr. Jason McElyea, isn’t even working at the emergency room he claimed was overrun by nonexistent Ivermectin overdoses. Rolling Stone issued an update: UPDATE: Northeastern Hospital System Sequoyah issued a statement: Although Dr. Jason McElyea is not an employee of NHS Sequoyah, he is affiliated with a medical staffing group that provides coverage for our emergency room. With that said, Dr. McElyea has not worked at our Sallisaw location in over 2 months. NHS Sequoyah has not treated any patients due to complications related to taking ivermectin. This includes not treating any patients for ivermectin overdose." Amazing how the press ran with this without even checking the story out or its sources.

"I'm just saying ..," what does that mean anyway???

There has never been a successful vaccine for the common cold, or for HIV, despite many efforts. Perhaps the most promising technology I've ever read about that would treat a multitude of virus strains is called DRACO (double-stranded RNA activated caspase oligomerizer). Despite DRACO's excellent lab results, it has never been able to attract industry funding to complete development. Skeptics may attribute that to the reluctance of pharmaceutical companies to pursue any solutions that do not provide an ongoing money stream (i.e. develop therapeutics, not cures) but only the developing researcher at MIT (Dr. Todd Rider) would know. COVID is a double stranded RNA virus and would theoretically be cured by the administration of DRACO, but the US government has not pursued advancing the technology. That does confuse me.

If the US Health Authorities (I won't use my preferred label out of respect for each of you) really wanted to overcome the hesitancy of people like myself, they would move heaven and earth to approve some of the non-mRNA vaccines like Novavax and Covaxin, both of which use more traditional vaccine technologies. The very fact that they have not actively sought to bring any non-mRNA vaccines to the US speaks volumes more about what their motivations are, rather than overcoming the concerns of those like myself. And back to the point that @estradling75 so eloquently pointed out, since there is no "protection of others" reason for the mandates anymore based on all the current field data, it is the very fact that the Vaccine Authorities sold it to the public on such claims that have now all been proven untrue, that gives us adequate reason to question and distrust those authorities going forward on any matters related to COVID. I will gladly get the Covaxin vaccine, based on whole virus technology, the minute it's available. Others likely would too IMHO. That would do far more to help our divisive situation than any further mandates from the Vaccinistas 😮.

@dprh You are correct, it doesn't say they didn't try it. However, IHC doctors have been quoted saying they can't justify using it. “Currently there’s not enough evidence for us to recommend ivermectin,” said Dr. Patrick Carroll, Medical Director for the Intermountain Healthcare St. George Regional Hospital. “While some individual studies suggest there may be benefit, an overall analysis of all studies does not demonstrate benefit. If you are sick, we strongly advise you seek professional medical care and work with your doctor for the best treatment for you.” https://www.redrock.fm/washington-county-is-completely-sold-out-of-ivermectin-because-so-many-people-are-eating-it/ I think it's fairly certain that if they had tried it, and it hadn't worked, the DN would have highlighted that information.

Another patient treatment tragedy in Utah hyped by the Deseret News. Not once in eight miserable months did they offer the safe off-label administration of Ivermectin, but they were willing to offer end of life care, and invasive tubes. You don't have to agree with a treatment to try it once within 223 days - especially when you have nothing else to offer. Sad. https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/9/2/22654517/utah-coronavirus-pandemic-after-223-excruciating-days-in-the-hospital-this-covid-19-survivor-returns After 223 excruciating days in the hospital, this COVID-19 survivor returns home Salt Lake City man was hospitalized for eight months, at times on the brink of death

I can still recall my older sister participating in the Regional Dance Festival at a college in Hayward, CA around 1976 or 77 and hearing "Dancing Queen" for the first time. Remains a favorite after all these years.

Finally some Good News! https://www.ksl.com/article/50233668/abba-back-after-40-years-with-new-album-virtual-stage-show LONDON — ABBA is releasing its first new music in four decades, along with a concert performance that will see the "Dancing Queen" quartet going entirely digital. The forthcoming album "Voyage," to be released Nov. 5, is a follow-up to 1981's "The Visitors," which until now had been the swan song of the Swedish supergroup. And a virtual version of the band will begin a series of concerts in London on May 27. "We took a break in the spring of 1982 and now we've decided it's time to end it," ABBA said in a statement Thursday. "They say it's foolhardy to wait more than 40 years between albums, so we've recorded a follow-up to 'The Visitors.'" The group has been creating the live show with George Lucas' special-effects company, Industrial Light & Magic. They say the virtual versions of themselves are "weird and wonderful," and go beyond holograms.

Our Stake and Ward have been tracking new Covid cases to help us decide on church meeting policy. At least 50% of the cases with symptoms have tested negative, and in some families where everyone had the same symptoms we have seen a mix of positives and negatives. The CDC has already withdrawn one Covid test https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dls/locs/2021/07-21-2021-lab-alert-Changes_CDC_RT-PCR_SARS-CoV-2_Testing_1.html because the accuracy turned out to be so bad. There may be more in the future. Just a Note: the withdrawn test was the one used to determine the effectiveness of the current vaccines in their trials. Hope that builds your confidence levels in the recent FDA approval

I wonder how the current Supreme Court would rule on such a case these days?

@JohnsonJones A great set of articles and thoughts on the deep feelings related to this issue. After reading those, I searched for more and found several. What was interesting to me was the divide - the pro-vaccine arguing that the comparison is wrong, and the anti-vaccine arguing that the comparison is real. Maybe the issue is that the persecuted (real or perceived) and the persecutors always see the issue differently? But IMHO here's the kicker, once all the mandates are in place, and the unvaccinated are all forced to stay in tents and isolated camps in Nevada because they lost their jobs and had to sell their homes, and they aren't allowed in stores, or hospitals because their health insurance is being denied, and they can't go to BYU football games, and their internet connections are taken away to prevent them from spreading accurate "misinformation" - the vaccinated majority will likely assume that they are now safer and will act with less regard for Covid safety - so the situation will get worse rather than better. I guess we will see??

@NeuroTypical Thank you for your thoughtful responses. I appreciate when one cares enough to respond even when we see it differently.

I understand your sentiment, and I also find some Nazi comparisons distasteful for the same reason. But I believe the greater disrespect to the victims would be to allow similar government policies and movements to occur again without calling them out and opposing such actions. That's where I am coming from on this.

I can't disagree with that. Hitler certainly wanted world dominion, but their anti-Jewish policies were designed to push Jews out of Germany.

So I want to be sure I understand, unless six million people dying via genocide are involved, you do not believe any parallels can be drawn from the rise of the National Socialist German Workers Party? We can't look at their step-by-step rise to power from 1920 to 1933, and how during those years the Nazi anti-Jewish policy functioned on two primary levels: legal measures to expel the Jews from society and strip them of their rights and property while simultaneously engaging in campaigns of incitement, abuse, terror and violence of varying proportions? The Nazis had one goal: to make the Jews leave Germany. And at that time they were free to do so. After Hitler assumed power in 1933, organized attacks on the Jews began, and only weeks thereafter Dachau was opened as a concentration camp. Can you and I agree that since the vaccines have become available, there has been a slow progression of the pressure being put upon the un-vaccinated? And can we further agree that we have progressed from discussion and persuasion to various measures of force from government authorities? And can't we also agree that if governments start mandating the vaccine with threats of losing jobs, freedoms, and liberty - that there are parallels to the Nazi tactics against the Jews from 1920 to 1933? Every day I read headlines like: CNN medical analyst suggests life 'needs to be hard' for unvaccinated Americans or You Don't Deserve Health Care if You're Not Vaccinated and those are on the mild side. And didn't the US Department of Homeland Security recently label the unvaccinated as a potential Domestic Terrorist threat, similar to how the Jews were accused of being enemies of the Reich? These types of threats and policies are very similar to the Nazi's anti-Jewish measures prior to beginning the final solution, so I have difficulty understanding why the comparison is unjust or disrespectful. The goal is to stop these types of measures early. How much suffering could have been avoided if the German people had stopped the Nazi's before they came to power? You can't expect people to be pushed into a corner with threats to their jobs and freedoms, by the very government that should be holding their freedom sacred, to not fight back. What kind and respectful name would you suggest for the Vaccine Authorities who are labeling me a terrorist threat to my country, wanting to deny me healthcare, travel, and housing, and potentially firing me from my job? I choose Vazis. I truly wish it had not progressed to this point, but as the vaccinated population in this country grew in size, mob mentality set in. Now the leaders in that majority want mob rule. I can't stay idle any longer. I've unfortunately been forced to speak up against those leaders.

I just saw this article, a bit long but worth the read IMHO. https://trialsitenews.com/get-sicker-anatomy-of-a-failed-policy/ “All governments lie” was the mantra of investigative reporting legend I.F. Stone. As a journalist, I have exposed some serious lies in my career. But my reporting on the management of COVID-19 has transformed my view of government, and my profession, in a way that 25 years of investigative reporting did not. It was a lie when the FDA trotted out a six-month-old web post recently, warning of “serious harm,” “seizures, coma and even death” from ivermectin. The March post was spurred, it said, by “multiple” reports of people harmed by an animal formulation. In response to my question – how many is “multiple”? – the agency told me four, with some “lost to follow-up.” This is how governments obfuscate, confuse and, yes, lie when discussing a drug that the Journal of Drugs in Dermatology said in 2016 “continues to provide a high margin of safety for a growing number of indications.” FDA-sanctioned remdesivir, meanwhile, was associated with more than 500 deaths in its first year of use. Ivermectin was linked to 20 deaths in 19 years of WHO VigiAccess record-keeping. You won’t find that on the FDA web site. In the same vein, on Aug. 26, the CDC reported a “three-fold increase…from the pre-pandemic baseline” in ivermectin calls to poison control centers. I asked the CDC press office four times: How many calls were received, and what was the baseline? It finally answered, gave no figures, and referred me to the American Association of Poison Control Centers. I’m waiting."

So I mean no offense, but here is the flaw in your first sentence based on recent data: A vaccinated person is just as much a potential Covid transmission vector as an unvaccinated person. So to be fair to all, you will need to fire all your employees to stop the spread or refuse to serve all. Again, we are all equal walking petri dishes for Delta. The CDC admits that and that is why they changed their guidance for masking. As for the freedom of companies to make that decision, we are agreed. I'm a conservative libertarian. But government mandates are a different category - they must not discriminate, and based on the data, any government or public mandate against the unvaccinated is discriminating without a basis at this point. My freedom doesn't trump yours.

It is the recent data sets from the US and around the world that have changed almost all of these narratives, and yes we probably won't change each other's minds but the recent changes in CDC guidance on masks for vaccinated individuals was entirely prompted by the new data which does support my statements above. 1. The issue is pretty settled at this point. Satellite data and hospital reports do not support the Chinese narrative that it started in the wet markets. It started in the lab, but without further cooperation and data from the Chinese, which is intentionally being withheld or has already been destroyed, we will only be 99% sure. 2. That was believed but was recently shown to be false. Vaccinated individuals carry just as large viral load as unvaccinated. We are all walking Petri dishes. https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/science-and-technology/2021/08/evidence-mounts-that-people-with-breakthrough-infections-can-spread-delta-easily 3. This is also supported by the above study, and by data from Israel and other highly vaccinated countries (which should have reached herd immunity if it was possible). Vaccinated individuals are just as likely to be infected with the Delta variant as the unvaccinated. And because of the higher numbers of vaccinated people, the unvaccinated are more likely to be infected by an asymptomatic vaccinated person than an unvaccinated person. 4. It was believed that was the case, but real world wisdom came through again when the data came back. https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital Getting Covid confers far better protection than the vaccine, but the data also shows that together is better than just Covid. 5. Herd immunity is now a pipe-dream now that we know the vaccinated carry just as much viral load and are easily infected with Delta. 6. The reasoning here relied on the assumption that vaccinated people would not be walking petri dishes, but the unvaccinated would be transmission vectors. Now that we know we are all transmission vectors for Delta, there is no expected reduction in mutation rates. Prior to Covid, the conventional virology wisdom was that you never vaccinate in the middle of a pandemic because it forces the virus to mutate faster. That was tossed aside, but many virologists spoke up to recommend against it. 7. We agree on that. Vaccination reduces symptoms of infection, but not the viral load. Hope that helps.

Comparing the types of governmental actions that the National Socialists took in Germany to the actions being taken now is in no way disrespectful. The six million deaths was an eventual result of where those types of actions ultimately led, and avoiding similar paths is both wise and prudent. Yes I believe in learning from history. Nobody ever imagined the Nazi movement would lead to such a result at the beginning. It started subtle, but step-by-step it was tolerated. Do you not believe that threatening people's jobs and freedoms based on a desire to force them to be vaccinated against their will is serious? Or are you in agreement with throwing them into the streets and preventing them from providing for their families? To me it strikes at the heart of personal freedom and is serious enough for the comparison to the early actions of the National Socialists.