clwnuke

Like normal, here I come out of left field asking questions and making statements that would normally be welcome in the free market of ideas, but lately are grounds for woke treason. IMHO mandates and increasing threats of isolation don't work. The logical course of action to take in regards to people's concerns with mRNA vaccines is to offer them other choices. The NOVAVAX vaccine, which data shows is superior to all our currently available mRNA experimental vaccines ( https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/06/novavax-now-best-covid-19-vaccine/619276/ ) is based on familiar protein sub-unit technology, and Bharat Biotech International Limited's COVAXIN vaccine is based on traditional inactivated whole virus technology. Both have been administered to millions in other countries and would find a welcome audience in the United States. All available data indicates that they are safe and effective against COVID and its associated variants. If the FDA and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention would focus on approving these for emergency use it would do far more than the current threats of force and isolation against the unvaccinated. Good science on new health technologies and treatments never speaks in the black and white terms that are currently being thrown around the medical industry.

Thank you to all who have shared your intimate personal struggles in these areas! When I was a youth and teenager I could not see or understand how many people around me were struggling in some way or another. Adults, other teens, children. I didn't know how hard their world's could be. Please forgive me for any of my thoughtless actions that may have contributed to yours or anyone else's personal struggles. I will be forever grateful that the Lord chose in His infinite mercy to give me experiences with some of my own children going from incredible to incapacitated, straight A to nothing, calm to out of control, and to have worked closely with extended family members who struggled with addiction - not to get high, but to escape the darkness of every day life. It took me a long time to see but my eyes were opened, my heart was softened, my love stretched, my temper exposed, my judgement of others pruned to a nub, and my faith in Christ's Atonement deepened.

Agreed. And in some cases it's a combination of both where they don't recognize their actual problems, but use a false/self diagnosis of a different problem as a crutch to avoid some uncomfortable challenges and responsibilities of life. Unfortunately our society, our mental health support services, social services, and our Church are not equipped to deal with even a fraction of the mental illness and addiction needs out there. Temporary help abounds, but under the guise of maintaining their "freedom" we often end up creating more problems in the long run than we are solving IMHO.

After many years of pondering I've come to believe that Christ's yoke was His Atonement. It was something only He could do. Hence, I interpret this verse to mean that if I will take His Atonement upon myself (i.e. change and seek forgiveness), and learn of His love for me, that I will indeed find rest for my soul. And I have, many times. He freely forgives, so His yoke and burden have been easy and light for me. Along your thought-line above, I would say that in my life things have been far easier when I have kept the commandments without hesitation or concern, than when I did not. Life is hard. But when I have striven to faithfully follow the Lord's plan for me, those difficulties have seemed to melt away as either unimportant or unworthy of more of my time and concern. Good luck on your talk!

It still is. If we could view many of our human faults through the lens of empathy and understanding that mental illness requires, we would find our life ministering efforts more effective and our character more godly and charitable.

My 2cents - Help kids understand that in spiritual things we are all equally capable. It is only in temporal things that unfairness is the rule. Help them learn from God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit. His Spirit and Wisdom is available to all without cost or prejudice. This talk is one of my favorites to help people understand these principles better: Stand Forever: Lawrence E. Corbridge, BYU Speeches Last of all, I learned the virtues of thrift store shopping as an early teen. It made my meager teenage paychecks go a lot further. Later, when I was dating my wife she complemented a piece of clothing I was wearing and when I told her what a deal I scored at the thrift store on it she recoiled and said "Ew!" But I promised her a life of poverty and I've delivered, so she is an avid thrift store shopper now too 👍

In Church or work I've always had great relations with anyone who's bothered to tell me that they are gay. If anyone has ever introduced themselves to me by announcing that they are gay or indicating that they struggle with same-sex attraction I usually reply with something like "Oh, you struggle with same-sex attraction? I can relate, I struggle with opposite-sex attraction!". I believe it's important for them to know that I don't define them by their struggles, and there's no need for them or anyone else to announce them. We can just become great Gospel friends and put our shoulders to the wheel together. Just my 2 cents.

Hey, I'm not sure what foreign country your missionary was originally assigned to, but several of them opened up briefly and then shut down very soon after due to changes in COVID infection rates. Some were only open for a few weeks. Case in point - Japan. Some re-assigned missionaries were sent back during a brief interval but many were not able to return. As others have mentioned, in your missionaries case it is most likely also related to the use of anti-depressants. That's standard missionary department policy. Per HIPPA preventing them from telling you medical information- missionaries are adults so technically mom and dad do not have a "right" to information about anything. However, HIPPA does allow for your children to authorize and request that you be informed about all medical treatment. Our son and daughter both expressly authorized us to receive that information and it was subsequently provided to us. Also on a personal note, our daughter returned home from her foreign South Pacific mission after becoming depressed some years ago. Despite her early return she looks back with gratitude. And we have a son who served 9 months in a foreign mission until COVID forced him to return. He is attending BYU while he waits to return to his mission, but if the country remains closed for too much longer he will probably choose to be reassigned. We can relate to your anxieties. Thank you and your son for serving the Lord Jesus Christ with all your hearts❤️. He is the Master Coach, and we all perform better when we invest completely into His game plan for our lives.

Orson Pratt

As a follow on - I feel the most empathy for those don't want a COVID vaccine whose workplaces are requiring vaccination. I anticipate that my own workplace will soon require one despite numerous assurances to the contrary over the past year. Even in that scenario, I believe I will be able to have a reasonable accommodation made to allow me to wait until the Covaxin vaccine is available. I would feel more comfortable with that choice if I'm ultimately required to get one. If I have to wear masks while others don't until Covaxin is available, that's OK with me.

I suppose my whole point is that the choice not to vaccinate is not in "conflict" with Church leaders. The First Presidencies statement includes this: Individuals are responsible to make their own decisions about vaccination. So people who exercise their judgment and choose not to receive a COVID vaccine are not in conflict with their direction IMHO.

That's where I draw the line 😜!

@estradling75 very good example of following the Spirit while striving to do the right thing. Thank you for sharing!

@JohnsonJones have you considered that many of us who made our decisions to not receive mRNA spike protein vaccines under emergency use authorizations made those decisions long before President Nelson spoke on the subject? And have you also considered that many of us regularly exercise and maintain good health habits, have worn our masks, have continued to take, or started to take vitamin D, have avoided large groups and visits with family, have used disinfectant religiously (no pun intended), etc., And don't these things count toward "Do[ing] all [we] can to bring COVID numbers down in your area so that your temple opportunities can increase."? While I respect your viewpoint, I do not understand your seemingly singular focus on interpreting President Nelson's recommendation for vaccination as a mandate that divides the faithful from the goats. I respectfully ask some questions to ponder - 1. Do we need to get the same exact vaccine as President Nelson in order to be exactly obedient? Surely to be fully obedient we would need to take no other COVID vaccine other than the one he took right? Or is there room for interpretation on which vaccine to receive and when to receive it? 2. Since President Nelson did not specify which COVID vaccine to receive, is it OK if those people who have already contracted COVID and enjoy a natural vaccinated state with active antibodies to not receive an additional vaccine? Or is there room for interpretation in this example as well? 3. Are people that have significant co-morbidities such as obesity, but who get a COVID shot, more obedient that the healthy person who chooses not to get a COVID shot at this time? Or is there room for interpretation in this example too? I love President Nelson, and I am so grateful for all he has done in his lifetime to serve Jesus Christ and His Church. I'm grateful he has spoken on this issue, even if I have chosen to patiently wait. I respect his medical career and knowledge and I feel from a public relations standpoint that he has absolutely done the right thing. But I also have no doubt that if we sat down and discussed the matter together he would completely and lovingly respect my choice. Will I be able to serve another foreign mission without the COVID shot? Not presently. But it's OK if I serve state-side. Is it possible that Church policy may change and I will no longer be able to serve in the Temple without having the COVID vaccine? Yes, it's possible. And if that happens I will serve in other places. And is it possible that this may all go away just like the original SARS virus did and we go back to normal and COVID vaccines are no longer required? Of course, so I'm not sure why we need to panic, criticize, or goad others into our viewpoints. In 2000 my younger brother died from leukemia. I watched him suffer through long, intense, and grueling pain for many months prior to his graduation from this life. He made a personal choice to receive those treatments despite a very small chance of success. I would have chosen differently, and yet both decisions would have been right. Imagine that?

I respect your sentiment, but I also think that we should not underestimate the importance of medical self-direction. One of the blessings of the new Saints books is the candid recording of some of the disagreements within the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve. The members of the Twelve have never been expected to stop thinking for themselves just because the President has an opinion on a matter. In fact, in many cases the Presidency chose not to act on matters for many months because of division among the Apostles, often waiting long periods for just one person to change their mind. I believe the Lord is just as patient with us when we don't agree on a recommendation from the President of the Church. It was not given as a commandment, and just as the Word of Wisdom did not carry that status for many years, this also does not and don't pretend that it does. Some may choose to act now, others may choose not to act at all, and some may be like my brother-in-law. He had full COVID three months ago, and chose to get the vaccine anyway. The first shot had only minor complications, but the second put him in the hospital with life-threatening complications. Justifiably, he does not intend to receive any further booster shots. Is he now a reprobate and apostate for his stance? Let's be careful to limit our judgement to our circle of responsibility and respect that others have that same agency.

I'm not an anti-vaxxer, in fact I had a great conversation with my doctor as I was receiving the second of my shingles vaccines a few weeks ago. He asked if I wanted to sign up for the Johnson & Johnson vaccine (before the short ban)? I replied no thank you. He continued on trying over and over to convince me that it was safe. I kept politely saying no thank you. Finally, I told him that I have monetarily invested in specific vaccine development efforts in my life and in each case it took nearly a decade to even get to the point of possible approval and financial return. I said that I preferred to wait some additional time and had no fear of contracting COVID as I am not in any high risk group. He was polite, but you could see in his eyes that he thought I was a kook. On a different vein, the new COVID vaccine requirement for foreign missionaries appears to have caused quite a stir in the mormonworld last week. The Church even had to turn off their Facebook comments. One important piece of information that is not widely known is that a traditional "inactivated virus" vaccine called COVAXIN that does not use mRNA spike proteins will likely be available in the US in the next few months. It will also be under EUA, but it may be a preferable alternative for those who wish to go on a foreign Church mission and don't want to receive the current mRNA vaccines. https://indianexpress.com/article/india/bharat-biotech-covaxin-production-sale-up-700-million-doses-7281776/

Vort, thank you for a most interesting thread, and for sharing your insights. Like most LDS people my experiences with fasting have varied over time. It seemed hard as a child, but I always felt a strong Spirit on Fast Sunday and enjoyed hearing people bear their testimonies and collecting Fast Offerings. As a teenager it didn't feel like it was that hard to fast, but sometimes I would get some wicked headaches. After I graduated high school there was a church musical called "It's A Miracle" that was performing at the Seattle Center and I invited a non-member friend to attend. I really wanted this person to feel the Spirit so I decided to fast for 2 days, no food or water. It was August and hot, so I found myself very thirsty but the hunger pains did seem to go away overnight. I felt very positive about the experience and my friend did eventually enter the waters of baptism several months later before I left on my mission. On my mission we were instructed not to go without water in the summertime due to the sweltering heat. That helped my occasional headaches a bit, and I realized that one can still have a spiritual reverence and attitude of fasting while maintaining health. After my mission and into marriage I never saw fasting as difficult, except for the headaches from time-to-time. But my whole frame of mind on food and fasting changed when a friend of mine told me he was on a Keto diet. I told him it was stupid, then realized I really didn't know anything about it and so I experimented with it myself. The first time it was very hard to get into ketosis. I felt like I was dying even though I was eating non-carb foods. It was then that I had a "revelation" about my health. I was addicted to carbs. I didn't need to lose much weight, but what I found was that while I was in ketosis my mind was super clear - no fog in the morning or night. I needed less sleep and the headaches vanished. Once I came to know how my body would react to having no carbs, I found some profound truth to all my Boy Scout survival training. You don't need food if you are lost. You need water and shelter. Your body will eventually start burning your fats and you will survive quite a long time. That knowledge changed me. I can now fast (I always drink water) for two to three days without much effort and it feels great. The longest I have intentionally taken no food has been 7 days, but I could have gone on much longer by taking a daily vitamin and drinking water. In a way, knowing how my body reacts and knowing that I can do it without much effort, allows me to focus on my purposes more intently. I don't feel like I'm suffering when I fast, instead I feel like I'm focusing on something I know is more important. I applaud your efforts to explore this unique spiritual practice, and thank you again for sharing!

I remember lining up on my first day in the MTC and receiving 3 or 4 vaccine shots in a row. My shoulder was sore for a week so I don't think that's a new policy. While I regularly receive the flu vaccine, I have no problem with anyone (including myself) opting out of the current COVID-19 gene therapies that create spike proteins. As an investor I have watched companies work for years on true vaccines that took 7-10 years to develop. I would never take an adjuvant developed in an emergency setting right out of the gate. Perhaps too many people have forgotten the Dengvaxia tragedy in the Philippines. Experts had declared Dengvaxia safe, but the experts were wrong. The very fact that new side effects (i.e. blood clotting) have been discovered that were not anticipated from the computer modeling is an indication of the wisdom of taking time in these matters IMHO. https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/moderna-pfizer-vaccines-blood-clots-inflammation-brain-heart/

Two thoughts after reading all the posts: 1. Are people too hard on themselves? In my experience they usually are. But perhaps that is one reason why every knee will bow and confess that Jesus is the Christ? After seeing ourselves as "the vilest of sinners" it will amaze us when He bestows infinite amounts of undeserved mercy and grace upon us. His love will be deep enough to drive all of us to our knees in humble gratefulness. 2. In my interactions with senior Church leaders I have often seen them solicit candid and open thoughts about many topics addressed in the Handbook. When the First Presidency and the Apostles meet to discuss matters they are candid and often have different views on policies and procedures. They carefully and cordially work toward a consensus and then move forward in a united manner. I think we can support their decisions while still pondering all these things in our hearts. Curiosity is a God-given trait that helps us understand many principles over time. Speaking of gratefulness - a big Thank You! to Thirdhour.org and everyone who makes this Forum possible. Your work is wonderful 👍

I think your assumptions are correct, otherwise we would need to account for the position of the moon and the velocity of the ripped-away half-earth and comet and whether they would collide.., But assuming that we ignore all that I think you would see the moon drift away since its current velocity, momentum, and centripetal force would exceed that of the newly reduced gravitational force of the earth. But hey, I wasn't the kid getting an A in physics and it is 2AM so I'm probably wrong.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/tacoma-restaurants-caught-in-crossfire-when-speaker-seen-as-foe-of-lqbtq-community-stirs-protest/ As I read more and more articles about the shaming, cancelling, and outright harassment of people and groups who believe in traditional morality, I wonder how long it will be until employers and governments start requiring employees and citizens to renounce their "hateful" religious or moral beliefs as a condition for employment, professional licenses, or access to public institutions? I can easily see scenarios in the near future where activists start going to HR departments and making the case that the mere presence of a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the office creates a hostile environment because of their anti-LGBTQ beliefs. Or that they can't be in a position of leadership because they inherently discriminate against LGBTQ people due to their religious beliefs (unconscious bias). It seems to me that the conditions are rapidly ripening for the fulfillment of D&C 45:68 "And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety." As the adversary works furiously to socially and economically isolate those who refuse to bow to his mammon and sin, I can more clearly see why we need a home based Gospel, and why we must hasten the gathering of Israel. How long will it be until it won't be safe to attend church because you'll be harassed or 'outed' in social media? How long until local governments start echoing those who already say that church buildings are tax cheating fortresses of hate and start shutting them down?

My understanding is that children BIC are considered to be sealed to their father and mother individually, in the same manner as children who were not BIC are sealed to parents individually later in the Temple. So even if the marriage covenant ends, the children who were BIC are still considered sealed to both parents. I know that I don't fully understand the meaning of "being sealed" yet. Technically I am sealed to six women right now - my mother, my wife, and my four daughters, as well as to three men - my father, and my two sons. I often ponder this wonderful doctrine and one day hope to understand all the blessings associated with it.

I'm just so surprised that you have even let your daughter know that boys exist. Shouldn't that wait until they are like 24 or something???

@dddd It's always interesting to me how sometimes we can differ from the majority in our opinions, and I do in this case. As a former High Councilor that had responsibility for working with the YSA and Single Adult programs in a stake, I think it was always an important responsibility for everyone involved to help maintain the Church designated age and divorce policy restrictions. Of course you can't force her to stop attending, but neither can the Bishop without calling police officers to remove her. Rather than expecting the Bishop to take care of all the "dirty work" which really isn't dirty work at all, I'm glad you attempted to help the Bishop out by lovingly suggesting to her that the ward is actually intended for those 18-30. If more help is needed, you can ask the High Councilor over the YSA ward, or other Senior couples who may be called to help the YSA ward, or by referring the matter to the Relief Society President or Elder's Quorum President. Handbook 2 is pretty clear: "Membership in a young single adult ward is temporary. Leaders help young single adults prepare to return to a conventional ward when they marry or reach age 31." The age and divorce restrictions are wise church policies based on many years of experience. YSA wards change constantly and the Bishop does not have the time to evaluate and police all these matters himself. The members need to help self-police the policies similar to how the youth help maintain the church standards at church dances. It is always more effective for youth to caution other youth rather than leaders or adults. At a minimum, I suggest you gently and lovingly decline to offer her future rides and be straightforward and honest why - because she shouldn't be attending the YSA ward. She may find another ride and attend, and you can still greet her warmly when she does. But I think she will respect you for doing what you know to be right. People say you avoid a ton of drama when you don't tell people the truth, but in my experience that's not correct. You simply create more drama and shift it to someone else who has to deal with it all eventually. I think that's why I loved living on the East Coast (New Jersey), people were straight up with no hidden agendas. Blunt and honest was a refreshing change from my West Coast upbringing. As for membership records, the Church does not typically move YSA records into the YSA ward in local stakes so that may not even be an issue. They do when you go off to college or something similar and then attend a YSA ward. In any case, as one who had the opportunity to ask many people to attend their proper YSA, SA, and home wards (or not to attend at all until after their divorces were final) I respect that I'm in the minority on this one and wish you luck!

Good to meet you DontaeBynes! I don't think you would have conflict if you didn't already have a spiritual influence guiding you in the right direction. Continue to follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost and I think you will be alright. IMHO it really doesn't matter that you think this young lady is wonderful, the decision is yours. Latter-Day Saint women ARE wonderful so avoiding their powerful influence is like trying not to notice the beauty of flowers in a well cared for garden. Don't let the adversary keep you from the truth because of your current concerns. I'm certain the Lord is working miracles to help you and His plan for sharing the Gospel intended to have others influence us for good. Join us in serving the Lord, we need you and the Lord wants you!