yjacket

Bingo . . .as a parent you pick your battles. This is not one that I care to worry about or fight.

Shunned, no all are welcomed into the Church regardless of whether they do or don't have kids, married or unmarried. There isn't a whole lot that is requisite to be a member of the Church, faith in God & Jesus Christ, testimony of the Book of Mormon & Joseph Smith, and a commitment to keep the basic worthiness - i.e. believe in the Law of Chastity, Word of Wisdom etc. So while I say you won't be shunned, you will find an extreme/heavy influence on families and the proper roles of men/women-father/mother. The weight of the influence will depend a lot on the composition of the ward you in. If you are part of a younger ward, with lots of young families you will have more emphasis on children, and raising them properly. If you are in an older ward-not so much. Having said that, I personally find it very disheartening and sad to see so many people who don't want to have kids. You never know what you missing until it is completely taken away from you. Quite frankly, modern society is extremely sick and so many people are influenced by modern society to believe in not having kids. I have several kids, who I love very dearly, and it is very easy to say well I don't want any more kids or we shouldn't have kids right now . . . until that choice is ripped away in an instant and it is no longer a choice. It is quite sad what has happened to the culture in the US, the actual re-population rate in the US right now is below replacement rate . .. i.e. as a culture and people we are in a very real sense killing off our own culture and heritage---it is 1.97 and you need 2.1 just to maintain a stable population. So the people who are actually well adjusted, have good jobs who could support raising (and raising in a proper manner) more children don't. The people who are not well adjusted, i.e. they are on welfare, are not stable, don't have stable families etc. have 4,5,6 kids. Well where does that lead when I get old . . .you get a larger and larger percentage of the population who has not been trained right b/c their parents didn't teach them properly. Raising a righteous generation of children is an act of love, it's an act of love for one's own neighbor . . .b/c when I'm 70+ I'm going to have to rely on the younger generation to help out and if there are more entitled brats running around rather than humble, God-fearing men/women I and a whole lot of other people are going to be in a world of hurt. People have the freedom to make their own choices in life, but having lived and experienced my fair share of this world, I can say with absolute confidence that raising children to be adults is the best way to have the maximum amount of happiness and joy in this life (it is also the best way to have the maximum amount of pain too!). It is an individual choice, but once we are married-it is God's first commandment to us. The Gospel is about families, it is about having families, about raising them properly, about serving them, teaching them, etc. I can say in my 30s that my single biggest regret in my life is and will be forever that I didn't have more kids. So will people shun you, absolutely not. Is it possible that you feel shunned (and there is a big difference between the two)? Yes it is possible. Similar to a couple that cannot have children might feel shunned, guilt, displeasure, pain, sorrow, etc. when the Relief Society lesson turns to a topic about children and stories are brought up about kids. Or you might feel shunned when 95% of the women your age in Church are running around scrambling after their kids, or taking the screaming baby out of sacrament, going to the mothers room, etc. Or when the women your age organize a kids get-together day and the kids run around at the park while they talk. But no one will actively shun you, if they do they have some things in their own life to fix. A lot of whether or not you feel shunned will depend on the reasons you come to Church, if you come to church 1st to commune with God and to be nurtured by His good word through others then you shouldn't have a problem.

I don't worry about it too much. I've lived enough in my life to know that when I start thinking I'm all that I just have to wait a little bit and something will happen that will smack me upside the head to remind me I'm just a begger for my life trying to make my way in the world like everyone else and that I need God in my life way more than He needs me. Quite honestly, it was real easy when I was younger to worry about this type of stuff with very little responsibilities, but then life happens, wife, kids, job. I don't have time to worry about staying humble, 'cuz I've got enough on my plate to keep me humble for a long time.

Completely agree, just like there are bad counselors; we need to be very selective about who we receive advice from. For me, I want advice from people who have personal experience in walking the walk. I'd rather trust my Bishop who shares my same faith than a marriage counselor who may not. Now if you are fortunate to have a marriage counselor of the LDS faith who is very experienced in their own marriage, then that is someone who I could also trust.

Whether or not there should be a law against it (i.e. as a society we are going to use force to stop or make people doing xyz) is a completely different animal. Morality however is as you said not determined by whether it is someone's else business.

This IMO is some of the worst advice. I see this bantered about all the time, the Bishop isn't trained to be a relationship expert, he only deals with spiritual matters, not temporal matters. What absolute rubbish. As I've said before there is a really evil thinking in the current modern day world that the only place to get good relationship, marriage advice from is someone who has three letters behind their name or has a degree in it. This is absolute utter trash. The best relationship advice I've ever gotten is from my parents, who have been married for over 30 years, with grown kids having dealt with all the ups and downs of life, hair-pulling, I want out of here to I can't live without you. In fact, you'll find that the best relationship advice you'll ever get is from people who have walked the walk and talked the talk. I'm going to get relationship advice from some hot-shot PhD out of school who has 5-10 years of experience?? Who may or may not have been married to the same woman with kids during that time frame? I don't think so. Just because someone went to school and has a degree doesn't make them an expert, it simply means someone else says they are an expert-whether they really are is a big ?. Many of my ancestors were Bishops, some for long periods of time (20+ years), they dealt with everything. Now I'm not suggesting that every Bishop is qualified, nor am I suggesting that every counselor is disqualified. I'm simply saying that to dismiss the Bishop out of hand as a relationship expert is ludicrous. He is a relationship expert, with his own wife!! Which is more than many marriage counselors can say. In fact, the only relationship with whom one can have any real expertise with is one's own spouse. No one will ever know your spouse more than the person who is married to them, yes there are things that are similar among different cases, but ultimately everyone is different and therefore each relationship is different. I am also not suggesting that everyone burden the Bishop with every single problem. What I am saying is that if a Bishop has the qualities as it states in Timothy then sign me up for marriage advice from him, b/c it will be better advice than you'll get from 99% of the world and counselors. And a good Bishop will know when he is over his head. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Just quickly, I wonder if you are looking at the wrong target. You will be gone from your wife with minimal interaction for 6 years???? Apologies if I'm too blunt and with all due respect, but are you nuts? And she is on-board with this? Is she nuts? I know you've got to do what you've got to do, but 6 years is a loooooooong time to be gone with minimal interaction. Personally, I'd be rethinking my line of work and my marriage. I highly doubt your marriage will be able to sustain itself if you are gone for 6 years with minimal interaction. Women need that emotional attachment/bond so I wouldn't be surprised to come home one day and find the milkman left a present for me. If you have a kid now, you will be gone until the kid is 6 years old, miss 6 birthdays, miss them walking, talking, saying "daddy please tickle me", you'll be a stranger in your own house. All for what? So you can have extra money? No thank you. I get it, this economy is rough-but there are still plenty of things that an enterprising young or even older man can do to support his family without having to be away for 6 years. If this is a military career path, well from what I've gathered having immediate family members in the military deployments last for max 1 year/18 months then there is a good reprieve 6+ months. Quite frankly, IMO fighting in a war is a young man's job (and we shouldn't send them unless it is 100% necessary for defense), but once you have a wife part of the responsibility of the husband is to start thinking about the needs of the family rather than themselves first. And IMO the needs of the family far outweigh whatever benefits can be gained from being gone for 6 years with minimal interaction. God has commanded us that once we are married are responsibility is 1st to our spouse and then to future generations, i.e. we should begin the process of having children. But hey that's my 2 cents and it will buy you absolutely nothing.

Thank you sir!

I have studied this issue a good bit and there is more than meets the eye as to why it was instituted. I personally have come to the conclusion that without a doubt it was instituted by God. IMO one cannot separate polygamy from Joseph the Prophet. Either Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God and polygamy was instituted on commandment from God or Joseph Smith was a fraud. Some members of the Church try to do this modern day dance, where they claim Joseph is a Prophet, but that polygamy was a mistake. That approach is incompatible-it was the same thinking that ultimately lead to Joseph's death. Polygamy was a major issue that lead many people to claim he was a "fallen prophet". IMO the establishment of polygamy cannot be fully understood without understanding the Anointed Quorum and it can't be understood without understanding the distinct different between a civil marriage and a sealing and which one overrides the other. Another thing to understand that most people don't is that Joseph Smith was literally, and I do mean literally creating the Kingdom of God on Earth. He was instituting everything that would be necessary to usher in the 2nd Coming. People have to act to build the organizational government and religious government for the 2nd coming. He was doing his best to create a theological government and religious institution to usher in the 2nd Coming. There is a process that I personally am convinced that most of the 12 and GA go through-a very real, tangible Abrahamic experience where they are called upon to sacrifice what they hold most dear to God. They don't talk about it, but service to God requires a purifying experience wherein we are tried to see if we are willing to set Him 1st in our lives. I believe Polygamy when it was instituted was an Abrahamic experience for those individuals involved. Hyrum Smith did not accept it and it was only after Brigham Young talked to Hyrum about his testimony of it that Hyrum accepted. There has been some really good research in PhD thesis papers describing Polygamy, the Succession Crisis and the Anointed Quorum. Just because we don't understand God's ways doesn't mean it isn't right. God told Nephi to slay Laban, God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. The key is learning to Hear God speaking to us so that when God tells us to do something we know with confidence that it is He who is speaking. There is way more than meets the eye to the institution of polygamy . . ..

Well said JAG!

It has been like that for the majority of recorded history. Marriage for "love", "true love", etc. is very much a modern phenomena. Not to say that romantic love didn't happen in the past-just that romantic love was very much out of the norm. Arraigned marriages were very common and honestly the older I've gotten the more I have to say there is a certain appeal to arraigned marriages. When you are younger and stricken by the "love bug" one can make some very stupid mistakes. Having a parent or trusted guardian help guide that decision could work out very well and help solve a lot of heartache. It's just the simple fact that after being married for 20 years a parent can see pretty quickly what relationships would work well and which ones wouldn't. Experience is a great teacher.

As far as kids go; I'm not saying you have, but you might have bought into the current child-centered culture that permeates everything in modern culture. Oh you didn't take your kids to disneyworld- you're a horrible parent. Your kids don't have piano lessons-you're a horrible parent. Your kids don't go to dance, you're a horrible parent. Your kids don't do soccer, blah,blah, blah-you're a horrible parent. Your kids don't have a smartphone, have hundreds of toys-your a horrible parent. Today's culture is such that if a parent doesn't sacrifice everything and anything for their precious special child-your a horrible parent. Oh sure, it might not be said that way-but it is implicitly understood. What a bunch of rubbish. 60 years ago, parents didn't give two flips about this. The child was an appendage to the marriage not the main attraction. Parenting back then was about training not about giving. From ages 3-18, parents understood their primary focus was to train their children to be responsible, hard-working, ethical, contributing members of society-it wasn't about "fun" activities. It was about learning if you want something in life you work for it, you can't get everything you want in life, be respectful of others, etc. etc. There is an economic principle at work-the less you have of something desired the more valuable it becomes. If you only have 5 toys, you learn to really value those 5 toys, which later in life means that you really learn to value the blessings that you do have in life. You are actually teaching your children a very valuable lesson that if done right will pay huge dividends in the future. You are teaching your children how to sacrifice for the most important thing in this world-God. If done right, in 20-30 years your children will look back and admire your strength, courage and perseverance. I'll give you another secret to life-individuals who have a longer term perspective in life will generally do much better than those who don't. You have seen that with being financially prudent, the same principle applies everywhere else.

I actually have a different take on tithing that I don't think has been mentioned here. Tithing is more than simply hoping and wishing for material benefits in the here and now and the spiritual benefits in the future. It provides a very real, very tangible benefit that IMO does not get talked about enough-or if it does is IMO mentioned without the right explanation. Every single organization needs money to run on. I don't care if you are a Fortune 500 company, the local Republican/Democrat part, a voluntary charity organization, etc. God certainly doesn't need our money, but the Church does. The cost to build a single chapel in the US can easily cost over 2 million dollars. I have access to the real world building project bid proposals the Church puts out due to a side business. A simple renovation of a restroom can cost 200k, a handicap ramp addition 500k. And this doesn't count all the other things the church provides. A well-done website will cost millions to build and millions to maintain. Generating and printing hymn books, purchasing projectors, videos, etc. Turning on the lights. Providing a stipend for Mission Presidents, General Authorities, etc. Plus the untold thousands of other things the Church provides to it's membership. Where do people think the money comes from for these things? 150 years ago, each local congregation would actually build the chapel themselves. Yet obviously, due to economic circumstances some areas of members are poorer and some areas are richer. Today we pay tithing and my tithing funds might go to my local chapel or they might go to help people in Asia have a worship place to meet. In every other volunteer organization, people understand the money to operate comes from the people who volunteer!! If you volunteer your time to the local Republican organization, it is expected to pay the yearly membership fee. If you are part of a community with a pool and tennis court, you pay the HOA fee. It is called paying your dues. Every complex organization has a way of obtaining money to operate-some volunteer organizations ask for donations from the community, others ask for donations from its membership. If the organization operates by obtaining money from it's membership, it is very commonly understood that those "members" who don't pay their dues aren't really a part of the "community" and are simply along for the ride . . .free-loaders in essence. Donating financially to a volunteer organization demonstrates more than most anything else where one places that volunteer organization in the priority list. As they say, put your money where your mouth is. It is in many ways absolutely shocking to me and maybe simply a sign of our current culture that people have a hard time paying tithing or they expect wealth and riches untold b/c they pay tithing. Yes, sometimes paying tithing will result in immediate spiritual and temporal benefits (a surprise bonus, a pay raise, a gift, etc.), but many times it does not. Sometimes I wonder if those things come about to help the faith of the individual who is paying tithing . . . . I think too many times we as members in the Church have proscribed to the "Prosperity Gospel", i.e. if I'm righteous I'll be so much better off than everyone else. Umm, nope, not the case. One will be better off living righteously than had they not lived righteously, but there is no guarantee that living the gospel will make me better off than everyone else. Sometimes, doing the right, moral, ethical thing has an extremely high cost. I recently came very close to losing my job for doing the moral, ethical thing. For being the provider to my family and the massive political costs associated with my actions, it would have been very easy to have simply let something slide. So, I can now curse God and say . . "God, why did this happen? I did the right thing!! Why am I being punished for doing what I know is right?" or I can simply say "God, I did the right thing, this trial is very hard for me, please help me in this trial-please help me find a way out, but regardless I will submit to whatever it is I need to go through". As far as gross vs. net; I think Vort is a little out of line. The Church has never stipulated what exactly constitutes a 10% tithe. The scriptures say 10% of your increase and the Church has said that means "income". Personally for me (and I'm not advocating anything, it's just my opinion). I pay on what comes into my bank account,i.e I don't pay on taxes. I personally consider taxes theft, so I don't pay tithing on money that is violently stolen from me. Regardless, I would advise a change of perspective. For the next two months, every time you go to church think that you personally paid for the hymn books, that your tithing is going to pay the electricity for the chapel, for the water, etc. For those who can pay tithing and don't whether they realize it or not they are free-loading off the rest. And the Gospel certainly teaches that free-loading is not cool.

As evidence by the watching MTV or E!, the answer is no. The correct answer is as Lehi said we have infantized children 12-18 and trained them to be completely incapable of making their own decisions. Evidence this by how many children after graduating high school (or even college!!) come back to live with their parents-that just defies logic that a fully formed adult would want to come back home and live under his parents roof after being completely capable of taking care of himself. Is it any wonder why society looks down upon 16 year olds getting married? A 16 year old in the late 1800s had a completely different mindset and maturity level than a 16 year old today. I'd say 16 year olds in the late 1800s were more mature than many 26 year olds today.

It's not just helpful, it's essential . . .The vast majority of problems in the world can be traced back to horrible parenting (everyone has their agency-but parenting makes a huge difference). Raising righteous children is an act of love for one's neighbor and probably the best thing one can do for in this life. I'd sure take the Brigham Young having 10 wives and raising 40 righteous kids over him having 1 wife raising 4 righteous kids and then the other 9 wives raising 4 deviant kids b/c their husbands can't get it together. . . The 1st case society will be better off, the 2nd it will be worse off.

This in my mind is the #1 reason. All the righteous examples of polygamy in the scriptures have this component. Abraham, the 12 tribes of Israel, etc. I actually think if polygamy wasn't taboo, you'd also see women who would want polygamy. The main role of the husband is to be a provider, the main role of the wife is to take care of the hearth and home. Without it being taboo, I'd think you'd see some women (not all, but certainly some) who would rather be the 2nd, 3rd wife of a really fantastic provider rather than the 1st wife of one who couldn't provide. And in effect, that is what Abraham, Jacob, etc. and the ancient prophets did-they were fairly well off and could support multiple wives and many children. While I'm sure Rachel and Leah would have liked to each have their own Jacob for their own, better to share one than to get none at all.

This may be the case . . .you know you are getting old when the meaning of words start to change. I read 1950s story books to my kids and they have gay in them alot- such as he was a gay old chap (i.e. happy old guy) . . . .sigh. Sometimes getting older sucks. To the point at hand, I generally don't care too much about what others think of me-the opinion of God, my wife and family mean the most.

Yes, I have and do. Quite frankly, what other term would you like others to use for the "typical LDS man/woman" besides saying "typical LDS man/woman". Language gives us spice and saying MM or PP adds a little more spice than just saying "typical LDS man/woman". What is or isn't derogatory is entirely in the connotation not in the actual word used.

I think part of the problem is right there. I certainly don't think of MM and PP as derogatory terms; more of a euphemisms for the typical woman or man in the Church. How it is said is much more indicative of a derogatory term vs. the actual word.

??? Okay my fault, you said old and ugly not old and fat, my bad-I changed it for you. No, I don't think there is anything wrong with being old, but you certainly seem to think so as it is part of your complaint. Please don't misread what people are saying to suite your own tastes.

Lol . . .nice snark. You wanted to know what the problem was, I told you, you don't like it and then complain that "everyone has shiny perfect lives". You have not walked in my shoes, and I can guarantee you wouldn't want to walk in my shoes. The first step in fixing any problem is understanding what the root cause of it is. You complain that #1 your work schedules are different and your "too busy" and #2 that you are old and ugly. I tell you well yeah, you've identified your root causes-you and your husband are not acting the role of husband and wife. For #1 if you don't spend time quality time together you marriage won't grow. From what you have said it is plainly obvious that his and your work combined is detrimental to your marriage. My response is since it's detrimental, then don't work and you respond "everyone else has shiny perfect lives". You complain that you are old and ugly, I say well you can have some measure of control and peace about that, but no that's not good enough as "everyone has shiny perfect lives". Did you come here to moan and complain, or did you come here for answers? If you came here to complain, then I'm sorry life can be a punk sometimes, it can suck. I'm sorry you are in such a miserable state. If you came here for answers then. Look, it's up to you. How important is your marriage? If your marriage isn't that important than just continue down your current path. If it is the most important thing to you besides God then you've got quite a bit of changing to do; and the first thing is to change your attitude. The next thing is to recognize what is causing you to be distant from your spouse, then pray to God that you will find a way to mitigate the things that are causing the problems and then work like crazy to change it.

Well bolded is problem number 1 and problem number 2. As a man thinkth so is he. So much of life is about self-confidence. No one likes to be around a party-poper who is always saying, I'm too fat, I'm too old, I'm too ugly, etc. etc. etc. Old and ugly?? if you're still working, you're not that old, what will you be like when you're 80 and have very wrinkly skin. If you don't like the way you look do something about it. And while yes when you get older it is harder to change your body. However, most people who exercise over the long-term (10+ years) don't really care so much about how they look from working out but about how they feel from exercising and eating right. Exercising puts endorphins into the body, makes you look and feel younger, and help your overall well-being. It's amazing what exercising some self-control to take control of a situation can do for you. Taking charge and doing something meaningful to make you look better will naturally make you look better-not because you've actually physically changed, but because you are doing something about what you don't like and taking charge-which will make you feel better inside and that good feeling will radiate out of your body and you will start to look better. As for the first bolded item-that's the other half of your problem. You are practically divorced because you don't make the time to actually be married. Unless you are in a situation where you must work, why are you working? God set up the family and the main family unit (i.e. man and woman) for the man to be the provider (i.e. make money) and for the woman to be the nurturer (i.e. take care of hearth and home). This is the natural order. There are so many things that a woman can do to contribute to society without the need to work a 9-5 job. My goodness, the world needs more women to step up and be volunteers for their communities, churches, schools, etc. We have society that encourages women to work in the "glorious" rat-race and denigrates women who don't, so both spouses end up working full-time jobs, their schedules don't overlap, they are both exhausted from work, they eat out a bunch (b/c no one wants to cook a healthy meal) and put on more and more weight. etc. etc. etc. It is such a ludicrous situation that people have bought into this absolute myth that for a woman to have worth they must "break the glass-ceiling". When it's all said in done, they end up gaining the world, but losing what is most important-family. You don't need to be an old codger to recognize the root of the problems in your marriage.

I was being a little tongue in cheek :-).

Actually, you never know . . .the bishop might just give the non-widowed sister a new calling, something like compassionate service leader or the like and then part of her church responsibility would be the care of the widows. Besides the youth, one of the main responsibilities of Bishops to care for their flock, especially the poor, sick, the needy, the widows. Jame 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Frankly, I wouldn't worry about it at all, and unless there is some specific behavior besides "she is looking at my husband a lot" it might be time to be a little introspective about your own feelings. If she starts to blatantly flirt then that might be a problem, but otherwise who knows why she is staring. For all you know, your husband might remind her a lot of her spouse that died and simply seeing someone that looks/acts like her dead spouse might be bringing a little bit of joy into her life. My guess is that you are fairly young and so is she (i.e. this isn't your "typical" widow case and she is young enough that should would eventually be looking to get remarried). Having come close to being in that situation myself, my biggest piece of advice. Have some Compassion and Christ-like love for her. It is said that as a rule of thumb people need to grieve at least one month for every year that they were married (I think that is a little jilted, but hey it's a rule of thumb). It is entirely possible that she is either a) still grieving or b) has started to transition out of grieving to living a "normal" life. Quite frankly, losing a spouse at a fairly young age, I say <60, is extremely hard and unless you've either walked that path or come close to walking that path, you will never know the pain, suffering, and agony that one must go through. To say it is rough is the understatement of the year. Your whole world is turned upside down, if you have kids, even worse so. Screwy, weird thoughts and feelings come and go, it is a roller-coaster that you never know when the high or the low will hit. And if it has been a while and she hasn't remarried, it can be even worse b/c unfortunately in this church (not a dog, just the reality), the available pool of quality men or women to marry from the ages of say 30-50 (they are already married and having families!) is pretty pitiful. So take someone who had a temple marriage, living the good life and then their spouse is gone at say 35. They still want companionship and to love, staying single from 35-80+ is no way to live life, yet who are they going to marry at 35? Just about anyone who is quality is already married, and even worse-off for them if they had an awesome spouse. It is highly doubtful she means anything harmful by what she does. Rather than be jealous, have compassion and become friends with her, who knows . . .maybe you are the key to helping her get remarried to an awesome man-a friend, a co-worker you know who is single, etc.