james12

I think a misunderstanding has crept into the hearts of some members of this church regarding this issue of mysteries. Some hear the word mystery and fear others will "seek beyond the mark" or lose themselves in some gospel hobby. But others hear the basics over and over again and begin to feel limited in spirit. How do we navigate between these extremes? Let's take the first principles and ordinances of the gospel as an example, these are faith, repentance, baptism, and gift of the Holy Ghost. We talk about them over and over again. These principles and ordinance are not first because they are simple, but rather, because they are foundational. In other words they form the base of further spiritual growth in the church. Without a firm foundation we will falter. So it is vital that we never leave these principles (see Heb 6:1 JST). However, it is also vital that we build upon them. We cannot be content with just a foundation but must finish the structure to the pinnacle. So, if you are grounded in the basics of the gospel do not fear to uncover truth. But use these foundational principles to uncover the mysteries. For instance, learn by faith (not simply secular study). Seek through prayer. Listen to the spirit of the Lord which will whisper to your heart. To those who reject this process everything becomes a mystery. They do not understand the spirit of the Lord at all, they question promptings, they even question that there is a God. They have cut themselves off.

This comment I find utterly fallacious. The purpose is to gain our eternal exaltation. The work and the glory of God is plainly stated, and obedience was given to this end. How we "feel" about keeping the commandments is irrelevant. While I agree that we will find peace in doing so -- eventually -- the plain fact of the matter is that sometimes stepping up and doing as the Lord has asked us to is hard, uncomfortable, and feels very little like peace. The peace will come from it if we are diligent and faithful, yes. But even if it didn't, the purpose remains. Our exaltation. If we obey we will be saved. If we do not, we will not. A failure to feel peace from obedience will not change that.Eternal exaltation is simply a means to an end and that end is glory, joy, and peace. That is what our Heavenly Father wants for us and that is always what obedience brings. You write of difficulties faced trying to keep the commandments. But to those that obey the spirit these difficulties are external not internal. If we follow the spirit of the Lord we will be free from such trouble, not after thousands of years but now. Elder Holland testifies, “There certainly can, and will be plenty of external difficulties in life; nevertheless, the soul that comes unto Christ dwells within a personal fortress, a veritable place of perfect peace. ‘Whoso hearkeneth unto me”, Jehovah says, “shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil’ (Prov 1:33)” (Jeffery R. Holland, “Come Unto Me”, Ensign Apr 1998, see also CES fireside March 2, 1997 at BYU). If we cannot find that peace in our souls then there is something amiss with how we are living our lives. Even if we are living the letter of the law.

Obedience is indeed vital to the gospel plan. I would never argue against it. But RMGuy is trying to explain some very important truths. It is not about disobedience but about how to progress. If we focus on trying to keep all the commandments, every rule, we will never be able to do it. We will find ourselves frustrated and burned out. Why? Because we can never do enough. So don't, instead focus on being enough. We are only required to deal with what is in our limited sphere anyway. Let me illustrate. When I was younger I wanted to learn how to play the guitar. I would focus on finger placement and strumming motions. But progress was slow, I could not place every finger right, I would miss a strum and then mess up the music. But I kept going, learning cords and strumming patterns. Of course I needed to learn such details. However, one day I wanted to learn a particular song. Instead of focusing on each finger, instead of worrying about each motion, I began to hear the rhythm and the beat. In short I began to feel the music. In that moment harmony and feelings replaced rules and specific lessons. It is the same with the gospel. Yes, obey the commandments. But start to feel the rhythm, start to hear the music in your soul. The commandments are not a random set of rules. They are trying to lead you somewhere. So instead of focusing on each rule, on each and every action, listen to the message reverberating in your soul. As you do so you will find a center point, a state of rest. Not, free from doing, but precisely in the center of it. This is the purpose of all those commandments and rules. If you find this calm in doing you will see that you have entered into the rest of the Lord. Now, instead of focusing on obeying every possible rule (which you simply can not do), just work on what's in front of you and find the peace that comes from being. Find it over and over again, live in it. This is what the Savior did as he progressed from grace to grace. This is why his yolk was easy and his burden light. The is why Joseph was calm as a summers morning when facing his death. I testify this is the objective of all the commandments. The peace we feel when doing right in any given moment is the purpose.

Yes, D&C 93:29 is important to this point, and I also in some sense agree with the word adoption. The first presidency and quorum of the twelve in 1916 gave further clarity to the concept of life: Life, or vial force, infused into organized matter.

Yes, I agree with the doctrine. However, I can't help but think there is more to this mystery. How can Elohim be the Father of untold billions (trillions, more?) of people?

I of course do not understand exactly what the relationship was like but I do consider it likely that my earthly father has long been my father in some form or fashion. Conversely, I consider it unlikely that Elohim was the direct father of my spirit or the direct father of billions and billions of other people.

I see it much as good family relationships here but coupled with a glory we do not now enjoy.

In this fallen world people make all sorts of poor choices. God does not plan such things but he of course, knows of them. Brigham Young had a vision where Joseph Smith came to him and told him the following, These words have some important truths. First, that before this life the entire mortal family was organized in family capacities. As such, they formed a great geneological chain from Adam. Second, our Father is re-organizing those who will follow his spirit just as they were before this life. Yes, I've seen this quote from Jedediah M. Grant. Certainly when he says they were "organized in family capacities" that is exactly what he means. Imagine rank on rank of the hosts of heaven all organized by family.

I did not say we chose our parents in pre-earth life. Rather we have had a relationship with them that has extended a long long time. Family is the government of God and we had a place in it before this life.

It appears to me this issue of children entering the celestial kingdom has distorted the view of this life and could lead a person down the wrong path. Let me ask a question. Is it better, and safer, to die before your eight so you are assured a place in the celestial kingdom? Or does mortality provide some advantage that cannot be obtained after this life?

We often talk about the eternal nature of the family in the church. We talk about how relationships continue after death and into the eternities. However, we rarely talk about family bonds before this life. But I believe family existed well before entering mortality. You already had a relationship to your mother and father forged over eons of time. So in my opinion you would not be born to different parents if your mother aborted you. This would wreck havoc on the family and plan of salvation before you were even born. Consider the temple sealing ceremony and the mirrors on either side of the altar. They show continuing images of husband and wife (and child if present) forwards and back. Does this not give us a hint of what happened before this life? I suggest it does.

When King Benjamin says we are nothing, or less than the dust of the earth he does not mean we are worthless. Rather, he is referring to our current state. M. Catherine Thomas is very perceptive in her comments on this point. She says: Man's dual nature, his fallen state, and need for the Savior are points few educators and psychologists recognize.

James E. Faulconer wrote another little book about scripture study called (unsurprisingly), Scripture Study: Tools and Suggestions. It does not contain questions about every verse like the Made Harder series does, but instead it outlines important methods of scripture study. So many just skim the surface of the scriptures over and over again as if they were cheap novels. His little book will tell you how to really study each word, how to ask questions from a number of angles, how to outline a section for clarity, how to study words in the Bible without needing to learn Hebrew and Greek. I highly recommend it. Take what he provides in this little book and dig deep into a passage of scripture on your own. Studying in this manner has almost always brought me new and significant insight.

Here is one: http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Prophets_are_not_infallible

On the flip side I see problems with ranking and sorting kids. I'm afraid it sends the wrong message. A message championed by Korihor the anti-Christ, who said: In the larger scheme of things the problem with self-esteem is simply the focus on self. As long as we teach kids (and adults) to focus on themselves, whether it be in positive ways or negative ways we have missed the mark. The Master shared the true way when he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing:...I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me" (John 5:30).

I have to admit that I actually didn't want to go to my daughters graduation from kindergarten to first grade. I did go, but I kept thinking about this little clip from The Incredibles.

There is a method to gain eternal life. One must progress from uncertainty to surety about his or her standing before God. This does not come in a moment but comes line upon line, step by step. We must bind our self to the Lord by receiving his promises until nothing can shake us. It starts with baptism and progresses as we receive the patriarchal priesthood and are sealed up unto this order by the power of Elias. We must then move onward to receive our calling and election made sure, by the power of Elijah. If we reach such a state nothing but denying the Holy Ghost or murder can separate us from eternal life. Then comes Messiah last of all to give us the blessings promised. This is the way to reach eternal life. Each step we grow in confidence and conviction. The world knows little of it. Some say once saved always saved but despite the words have not followed the process in order to obtain it. Joseph Smith put it in the correct light when he said: Move from grace to grace until you obtain the promise directly from God for yourself. Until you have such a promise doubt will remain and where doubt is there faith is not.

I agree with you that we can never long sustain our "best". And I do have a problem with someone saying, "All you have to do to be saved is your best". The problem with that statement is that at this stage in our progression salvation does not hinge on always doing our best. If it did we wouldn't have repentance. By this I do not mean that we should not try to do our best, just that if I don't go home teaching one month my salvation does not hang in the balance. Here is where all the hard liners usually come out and tell me that we must be perfect and that we must obey all the commandments or we can't receive salvation. Yes, we will need to follow every word that proceeds from the mouth of God but in our current state this is not possible and not expected by him. Why then do we get the instruction to do our best? Because we must stretch ourselves while in this tabernacle of clay. In order to grow in spiritual strength we must push ourselves to do a little more than we did yesterday.

I think your right.

Simple, ask God if you will make it to the celestial kingdom and keep seeking until he tells you you will make it.

You may be right. I guess Anddenex can comment on how he resolves the matter in his own mind. However, for me this would be a concern.

It is not about the two being at odds. Rather together they make an important point. One can be a supporter in spirit, and work as an ally within an organization to make changes, or they can work as a conscript, who wants to leave, fights against the structure, but for secondary purposes remains a member. The two are worlds apart. Perhaps to the state. But to the Lord, and to your eternal destiny, the reason why you fight is critical. In other words, even if actions are the same, if you fight for the right reason you will save your soul but if you fight against your conscience you will bring anguish and heartache. I'm not sure what your point is here.

Let me clarify. I disagree with the policy of allowing gay leaders. I have no problem if a person disagrees with the BSA on such a point, or if they disagree on a number of points. This is the nature of belonging to any organization. I see a problem when a person believes that there are so many insurmountable issues that it is better to leave the organization. Perhaps they believe it so strongly that they start telling others they should not be members of it. If they believe it is better to leave then remain a member, should they themselves not leave it? What if the only reason they remain a member is because the church stays with the program? Elder Christofferson says prophets will not accept the role of puppet-master. In fact, he shares a story that has much application to our discussion. If the cause be wrong does obedience to the church wipe the crime of it?

Let's not get caught in the "you said", "I said" trap. I don't agree with how you have characterized what I have said but let's get past that. It appears the crux of our disagreement lies in how to deal with the scouting program given that there are problems with it and yet the church supports it for the time being. It appears to me from what you have said that if the church did not support it you would leave the scouting program, and would recommend others do the same, due to problems such as gay leaders being involved. Is this correct? However, since the church supports the program you will soldier on, participating in activities etc. But this is where I believe our differences lie. I am wondering how you can reject a program, to the point of wanting to split from it, and still in good conscience be an active member of it. How do you resolve this in your own mind?

You have not simply pointed out problems with scouting, you have argued that the church should part ways with scouting. You have argued that the YM would be better off without scouting. The church has determined that for the time being such is not the case. Therefore, morally, your stance forces you to make a choice. If you continue to participate in a program you believe we should not be a part of, then you are a cog helping the corrupt machine roll along. Helping manufacturer boys who in your words believe that, "when the going gets tough it is easier to give up on being morally straight then to stick to your guns and stay firm." If you believe this is an acceptable position so be it. But stop complaining about the machine, because you are a part of it. I wonder how many hide behind the "church's" decision to stay in scouting but secretly want to leave. A recent poll found the following: I hope the majority of these people have made up their minds that even though there are problems they will still work hard within scouting to help our young men succeed. I hope they realize that for now scouting is the program we have in the church and that their negativity at this point will do nothing but tear down the good it does do.