Juan_P

Our Word of Wisdom actually permits wine drinking but conditions that to pure wine of the grape of one's own making ie alcohol free: "That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him. 6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make. 7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies." D&C 89 ie the mormon issue is with alcohol not pure wine, and not alcohol fee beer for that matter, but with the alcohol. Today we use water for practical reasons since it is difficult to make pure wine and store it for more than a day without fermentation starting, (although it would make everyone in church more friendly every Sunday if the youth prepared the sacrament wine during Mutual thursday night and served it Sunday morning )

Bro, when I read here "she still wants a divorce" I thought there must be other reasons apart from the prostitute for wanting divorce. But then again some women never get over a prostitute visit by their husband because they see it always as dirty and not cold sex only. Then reading on that the other guy has been single for 3 weeks made me think "they aren't going to last" .. stats on 2nd marriages are worst than first marriages with some 75% or thereabouts ending in divorce too. So what can you do here? and what advice? ....I'd start concentrating on being a good dad to the kids but paying only what the law requires to her. ie being strict with child support so she realises what the financial consequences of divorce are. Second, you will be asked to submit a letter addressed to president Monson conserning her application for sealing cancelation. In that letter you need to minimize the wrongs, the hooker and affair, just admit to it and that's it, say in one small paragraph, then expand on the reasons why you think you were resolving the problems. What you say here is good for the letter : you are in good standing in the church, now for more than a year, you believe you could've worked through the problems but she didn't give you that chance, PTSD did affect your marriage, separation from her during the war years also caused problems etc etc Your sentence: " I feel that may be once on the other side of the veil that we could see past our mortal problems and still enjoy eternaty together." is excellent and must be included in the letter to president monson because it shows that you have an eternal view of marriage and that you are willing to wait to solve things completely. Wish you all the best...

Absolutely have the right to talk to his bishop and yours too. In some cases bishops will take some disciplinary action, like taking his recommend away, if he insists in walking out so soon. But that's up to the individual bishop. And NO, you don't deserve the way he is treating you. You do deserve better. So if he refuses to go to counseling as he hasn't answer back yet, and refuses to try to save the marriage, well then maybe it is better if you find someone else. Many women have been left at the altar or seen their engagement broken off for fivolous reasons, or had a husband walk out during the first year. Then , after all the dust settles, they are the better person after that horrible experience and move on to better things, like a proper marriage. So don't cut yourself short nor live in the past. If he wont accept counseling or meeting with some Bishop well then its just time to move onto something better! If you are pregnant, well congratulations you did things the Lords way! and make sure you become a good mom to the kid....and make sure he pays his child support or alimony or whatever your state laws require.

How do you save the marriage? trying to go to counseling with him, trying to let him see that it is worth trying to save or not giving up after 3 days. Or give him some time to get the pressure off him and see if he really wants to marry or not. But in the end it takes two to make a marriage and if he doesn't want to be married, well there isn't anything one can do to stop him leaving. In that case one has to start looking towards the new life and start looking for someone else. I have a friend who's wife left him during the wedding reception after the sealing. that is they were sealed in the morning in the Temple and then that afternoon had the reception where she went nuts, starting hitting him in front of some of the guest and that was it, they ended the marriage there and divorced later when they could do the paperwork. In his case he didn't even get to loose his virginity.

Once a person commits adultery they, when doing the sin, are saying that they don't want that other eternal family because they are breaking the covenants and promises made to God concerning the family and the marriage. However there is a way back and is a way to repair the damage done, via the atonement of jesus christ and our own works and deeds. Currently you haven't lost that eternal family, in my opinion, however there is a dent or a break in the chain that joins it and there needs to be a repair job done. Some people don't feel any guilt over adultery and so they never change nor repent and they are beyond help but your guilt points to a high chance of both repair and change (in my opinion) It starts by confessing to both the spouse (first) and then the bishop. It is likely that because you were Temple married, you will probably be excommunicated, if not, if its the first time and it was a one off, its likely you will only be disfellowshiped, however only the Bishop can say what will happen when the time comes. Now this is an interesting problem in church. If you, say, wait 10 years and you are completely faithful until then, are best wife a man can have, and stay active in church, then if you confess after ten years the bishop will most likely tell you its all done with and to go and stay faithful. But what will the husband say when he finds out that you kept this secret from him all those years? If you confess now , you will most likely face church discipline and the embarrasment when people find out but then at least your husband has all that process to point to to say "yes, she has really repented and come clean". So while one could avoid disciplinary process by waiting a decade, it may not be the best for the marriage. So, in my opinion, I'd confess now and take whatever comes my way, get it over and doone with, and get back into full membership asap which, if excommunicated, could only be 2 years or so. I don't think that waiting 6 months or a year will make much difference though; it's not long enough. All the best

There's an obvious contradiction here, if both did things to cause the affair then both share then blame, not that its 100% on the shoulders of the cheater; and vice/versa if 100% of the blame is on the cheater then the innocent spouse is actually innocent!

Rimmer, honestly I think you should start moving in another direccion. Divorce off course isn't the desired outcome but sometimes its inevitable. People sometimes do need to end the marriage. Where you are at now you are loosing on three fronts: the battle to regain her, the second battle for property and things like business; and the last access to the kids. I strongly suggest you start a strategy to win some of these battles. if taking flowers and chocolates to her doesn't bring her back, then start talking to lawyers or counseling centres for divorce. You need to start thinking about how to get what is legally yours ie half the assets or there abouts depending on state laws, and proper access to the children, once a week or once a month. You should start by making sure that your bank accounts are only yours and yours only. Then, from my experience, I'd say to visit the kids once a fortnight or once a month to be able to better plan for and prepare for a top day out with them only. And then look to enjoy life in between during the week. like go to movies, or camping or driving interstate sometimes, move wards to meet new people, maybe change jobs, all because you need a new life and not to rehash all that 's been happening up to now. She is obviously lying and there is no adultery without lying so remember that whenever she offers things like 'I'll let you see the kids every week is we don't go to court' = you will never see them. She lies. and is very good at it and you need to defend your interests and need to start winning some battles here. And using a shotgun against them, although tempting, is loosing the war cause they will put you away for life and jail is a very brutal and difficult place to live in. All the best, John,

I agree with this too. For us they are all just as humans but of spirit matter or material or whatever a spirit is made off; we aren't told what they are made off except that it is 'spirit' that will either look like a man or a woman if its a 'she'. Here, as we understand this to be, that Jesus was pointing out the He was of flesh and bones and the apostles could touch his hands, and spirits aren't of flesh and bones, but a substance mortals cannot touch nor normally see. He wasn't pointing out that the spirit is formless, wasn't the point of the discussion, from the LDS point of view or understanding of this text. That we basically agree that Jesus was the creator of the world and just about the entire universe we know off. Ie we do agree with traditional christianity that Jesus is the creator but differ in saying that he did so under the direction of God the Father. So both could be considered creators in different ways and scenarios or in different definitions. The 'Verb' is from John 1. Yes, he is a Spirit but inside an immortal body just as we are Spirit inside a mortal body. Doesn't say anything about gender though. Note that John 4 is talking about prayer, ie that it is our spirit that prays to or communicates with God's spirits and our body or God's body doesn't take part in the equation. As to gender: Why? God has always been addressed to as 'he' not 'she'. If he was made in the image of something then that image is something to view and see or it is not an image. Maybe then in that scripture, as in others, were only a generic God term is used and not God the Father, maybe it refers to our heavenly parents ie God: a Father and Mother together, since we are in their image. If the situation was considered in a mortal setting there would be no misunderstanding -we are in the image of our biological parents. So for me, and many LDS but not all, when Adam is made in the image of God then he is actually being created in the image of his parents: a mother and father or 'God'. Off course for this point of view one would have to start accepting a polytheistic view of eternity where there are at least four God's : the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, and a Mother who is also at that level to be able to create life. Here , once again, we start to see why we mormon's aren't a part of traditional christianity since the 4 Gods view would be heresy to most christian ministers even though most ordinary rank and file christians would probably say it makes sense!

This is typical with adultery. Currently she is justifing or reasoning away the sin by saying that she is 'separated' however there is plenty to show that she is not fully separated. I does hurt bad to see one's spouse with someone else. But at that point I'd say one has to start working towards keeping assets or minimizing losses, like changing jobs or moving to an apartment before child support payments kick in, and so on. Wish you all the best, John...

you may need to get your affairs in order; Utah infections can be tough to beat

Maybe one way of looking at that, but why can't you and I be made in the 'image' of a spirit that is the image of God, the Spirit that resides in an immoratal body? Spirits have to look like something too and our belief is that they look just like a mortal does with hands, feet, tongue etc etc. So we could be in the image of Jesus the spirit who is also in the image of God the Father the spirit inside an immortal body... but remember that all our dealings with God and the Godhead are all between our spirit and God's spirit, with our bodies -mortal for us and immortal for the Father- not taking part in that exchange. Jesus did create this world, we claim under the direction of the Father, but Jesus is that verb John speaks of who made all things we see here in mortality. And yes, he was one of the 'us' mentioned in Genesis, but they also mention in there 'male and female' and Jesus isn't both, so somewhere there has to be a female around. Note that our 'extra' scriptures like the book of mormon or doctine and covenantes also do not mention a heavenly mother. In fact the first time heavenly parents are mentioned formally (not in same vague talk) is in the recent declaration on the family where our 'apostles and prophets' state in '95, very succinctly, about our heavenly parents, and implying that its the explanation for Gen 1: 26 however no one wants to push this too much because God doesn't push this either but demands we worship him as the Father through Jesus as our mediator and advocate by the power of the Holy Ghost ie a spiritual exchange and not a physical one.

My 2c: Disfellowship is basically to suspend the members rights of membership ie can't take the sacrament, give talks or prayers in church, can't teach classes or hold a calling, however the person is still a member and is allowed to use garments and pay tithings and attend church normally. Excommunication includes all of the above plus takes away the right to wear garments and pay tithing and the person is no longer a member of the church until reinstated by a new baptism. Mostly disfellowshipment will last between 6 months to a year if the person attends church regularly by this is subjective and Bishops usually decide how long the disfellowshipment lasts. It is a serious matter and a report is submitted by the Bishop to his stake president covering the proceedings of the disciplinary council and reasons for disfollowshipment and then that report, plus minutes from the council, are all submitted to church offices in Salt Lake City where they are never distroyed.

Have you spoken to your Bishop about this new faith? Must be a Utah thing.

Correct that only one member of the Godhead had a body back then, ie The Father, and Jesus first obtained his body on earth. "male and female" implies to us a father and mother therefore there must be somewhere a heavenly mother, with a body, alongside that Heavenly Father even if there is no mention of her in scripture.

I wish he'd used a smilie or something else to show he was poking fun. Came across as an attack more than poking fun. Swear also means foul language in many parts.

True, we are looking backwards and finding confirmation to what we already believe. For us, LDS, we look at the baptism of Jesus and see confirmaiton that they are three separate persons or three separate dudes to make it clearer, ie Jesus getting baptized, the spirit decending in the form of a dove, and that voice coming fom heaven, not from Jesus, presenting him as his beloved son. We would absolutely have a blank look of how can you see the traditional nicene creed version of the trinitarian doctirne of one God in three in that event, but would point out that along with the apostle stephen's vision, that it is proof that some parts of the nicene creed are just wrong; although today we could probably accept the constatinople version 381 as translated into english as been basically what we believe in too with a few nuances.

Can't trust But swear? easy there Vort, just a typo. And the smilie is there too ie it's just a joke

Hmmmm, so Lilith was made from the dust like Adam but she ran off with some angel, so then they changed the production technique to make the woman from a rib? so she couldn't run off so easily? and could be subservient to Adam too. Beggs the question then of why did Eve also listen to Satan and partake of the forbidden fruit? Maybe the lesson is that we just can't trust women, not matter how they are made....!

Yes, he should be looking to forgive her, whether they stay together or even if they do divorce. It took me roghly 2 years basically to forgive my ex for her cheating but it was only after I realized that it was her sin and not any of mine ones, that I didn't contribute to her 'vulnerable' state, that I was able to say and point to her and say "this is your sin, and your choice to destroy our family and hopefully God will forgive you one day and not send you to hell". That's when I started to find peace in my heart and the spiritual confirmation that I was starting to forgive her and move on. Today, I see her often due to our kids and I don't feel any hatred or despise her or any ill feelings towards her. To the contrary I hope she does return to church and becomes a member again because of my kids, so that they will have their biological mother, whom they know well, as their mother throughout eternity too. (My current wife would also prefer that situation too rather than act as a defacto mother for eternity, and she has also tried to get her back to church) But that process started after those first 2 years and after I stopped blaming myself for the breakup and after realizing that she was to blame for her actions and not me.

Remember, dude, that you may indeed find repentance and forgiveness for your own sins but that won't necessarily bring back your wife's love. She may be gone for ever even if you repent or if you don't repent. The choice to live or not live wiht someone involves many wider issues than your repentance process. I hope you have that clear , especially is she decides to not come back to you. (by the way , if she did come back to you as a loving wife, my money is on her cheating again whenever there are other problems in the marriage, money problems or just out of love problems which happen to nearly all couples after 7 years or so)

"Now she just wants me out. She says she needs time to think things through." .... just a lie; she wants you out to be able to see the other dude more. "She says she will go to counseling with me." ..more lying. Best and smartest thing you could do is divorce and move on. Move on and look for someone who a)believes in marriage for eternity and not just for while love lasts and b) is willing to live and keep her covenants of chastity before looking at the marriage issue.

Well, again, we aren't going to agree. "Shares the blame" be it for the "situation" or the 'sin' is still "sharing the blame" which I can't agree with. Rimmer is innocent here (if adultery actually did happen) and nothing in the scriptures points to him "sharing the blame for the situation". To the contrary its like blaming Job for letting his children be away from home when they were all killed ...actually I think your arguments are on the side of Job's friends and not the side of truth. Like the college girl dressing scantily and getting drunk.... no, she doesn't share the blame for the situation and in court, whether she wore a mini-skirt or tight tinny shorts or encouraged and flirted the guys that attack her it doesn't matter, they will still be up for rape and a possible a 25 year jailsentence because ,yes, it is all HIS fault. Girls should be able to dress how they wish too, even in miniskirts and bra only and not ever be victims of crime because the criminal needs to control himself not the girl. Dressing modestly is to send a message or communicate what you believe in not to avoid crime! I think you should re-read Job, the story of Cain and Abel and seriously re-consider this issue of how a victim can or cannot 'contribute' to the crime or to the sin or the situation. Also look at how blunt D&C 42 is with regards to this, in v24-26 especially v75 which commands an excommunication in these cases! not much room there to consider what the inocent spouse did or didn't do.

I'm sure he's studied all he wants to about the LDS church and that's why he opines the way he does. However a few hundred emails explaining where he is wrong and inviting him to a conversation would do exactly that: start a conversation. BYU has being doing this for a few years with evangelicals to the point where many evangelicals today don't have those extreme views on mormons even though differences are point out. At our layman's level we could probably do something similar.

See if you guys can be the sixth largest Christian denomination in the US but reject what catholism and jehovahs withnesses and others believe, I don't see why we cann't be simply the fouth largest Christian denomination in the US even though we reject what everyone else believes

yeah I found the church's general info email and staff emails in 5secs, but not the pastors direct one. No guarantee's that they will pass an email on to him. And any emails sent surely were more to clarify the issues, ones he is mistaken with regarding our beliefs, not to attack him for his beliefs. Blocking the converstion before it even starts can't be helping anyone.