Magen_Avot

I do understand where you are comming from. I have learned for myself that I should always ask, "Whose fact is it?" What's the context and the important lesson. Everything, and I do honestly mean "everything" has an important gospel lesson. It is true some were excommunicated. Some also returned,... have you read their story and why those that returned made the decision to return? I don't think the real story is that they fell away. The real story is everyone's story... who will give their whole heart, own will and agency over to the Lord. Who will be forgiving, loving, faithful and compassionate. Who will be born of God and remain faithful to the end? Isn't it Paul who said we must "work out our salvation with fear and trembling"? We don't do that alone. We have the Savior. I've been in the church for nearly 44 years and while I have read/heard some amazing/interesting/erronous things in my time, I've never heard that Martin only saw with his "spiritual eyes". That doesn't mean much to me even if that were true, because of my own experiences. No miracle can change anyone's mind, even seeing the gold plates, let alone the face of God. Faith must precede the miracle so the witnesses must have been ready for that, but even a sign doesn't mean they had to endure to the end to make it true. If God showed me a sign, I'd hope I would endure to the end, but the sign isn't important, nor is someone else's failures or successes really (though I can be inspired by them). IMO, it's a relationship with the Savior that helps keep one steadfast and strong enough to endure to the end. The story of the witnesses have taught me that. How about King David? The scriptures are full of such stories. The decision has to be yours. It's your journey, the path was marked by Christ. Rely on Him.

As I prepared for a talk once I read in a couple of places that membership in the Ward/Branch/Group prepare us to enter the temple and that the temple prepares us for Eternal Life in Gods presence. This seems to reflect that our lives are a progression, hopefully toward the Savior and as so many scriptures tell us: line upon line, precept upon precept. It's an individual journey made easier when surrounded by others seeking to become like the Savior also. May the Lord bless you on your journey, I would certainly be blessed by your company.

WHAT!!!! They can't be mere mortals! They just can't be..... Sorry I made jest, I don't mean that personally to anyone. Knowing things that JS said or did (used out of context, picked apart and misunderstood) should, at least be a reminder that even the best of us are subject to human nature... and within the embrace of a patient, compassionate and forgiving Savior. I guess what I'm saying is, that it's not important what we 'think' JS said, what's important is the atonement that caused JS to love Jesus Christ enough to accomplish the work he was given to do... even unto death.

I'd like to scrub in on this one, but my minds a little foamy about the particular granules of this bubbly topic. I'm rough as borax on soapy solutions that you have slipped into the forums. I'm sure you could clean it up a bit though if you just add water and agitate the rest of us into a state of whiter whites while we spin our soiled souls free from dirt and grime. Have you considered adding a little softener for those of us with a desire for a fresh spin on our spiritual brightness? Sorry, I'll have to change my cycle to things more delicate.

I worked for a state entity where an employee started 15 min early each day and logged it. After a couple of years they sued the state and won. They got a pretty penny more that the 15 minutes each day when said and done. Ever since then, the door opens 5 minutes early. By the end of that 5 minutes you are expected to have your pc on, paperwork ready and the doors opened to serve the customers. Didn't seem like the real lesson was learned but it made things worse for everybody else. Think of it like "driver A"getting to a 4 way stop sign just ahead of the others. They want to be "nice" so they wave the others on. What happens is confusion which ends up wasting everyone's time, or causing an accident, just because they wanted to be helpful. IMO, it may not lend to a desire to be helpful, but it supports orderly process, saves time, considers others feelings and reduces risk. In the end it's best for everyone.

PC, I'm sure the Elders walked away with eye opening, mind clearing and a testimony strengthening conviction in the Lord Jesus Christ. Or they should have! Um,... is anyone's son serving a mission up in the Seattle area?

The ward I'm in right now is very multi-national. I was touched by a woman who is from South Africa I think, but whatever else she talked about, it was evident she really loved the Lord and blessed His name for the blessings she has. I think of the statement on countenance and that seemed to fit her. I was a bit teary eyed at one point because she caused me to reflect on the relationship I have with my Friend, Lord and Master. Today's priesthood lesson on the first four principles of the gospel (faith, repentance, baptism and gift of the Holy Ghost) brought up having a "broken heart and contrite spirit" and we also discussed that in developing a relationship with the Savior, we submit our will to His because our agency is the only thing we have to give because He has given us everything else. I can see that because LDS believe we lived as spirit children of God before this earth life. Any thoughts?

The pitter patter of endless rain Each drop is self contained and hitting the ground unites itself with other drops that fall about together they run as rivers and streams and crushing waterfalls then as seas Flowers bloom because of rain and gardens grow and fishes swim because of rain so don't you fret because of rain because you'll bloom and grow because of rain and problems too they're all the same

My son's name is Kehnin. It looks good in cursive. It's pronounced Kenan which looks like kevin in cursive. He's 24 and never had a problem or issues. He likes it! It's also not on the top 2 million list. My oldest daughters name turned out to be Klingon, but that's another sci-fi story

synergy, things can get pretty messed up in our minds, especially when we feel there are circumstances that cause us to feel that we will be betrayed by "the system",... whether or not the fears are real. I would suggest this, even for myself, to just cut away everything else and consider the path you need/should take to make your heart/mind/life right before the Lord. Repentance is just the first few steps, as difficult as they may seem. Whatever else happens... forgive (others and yourself). Easier said than done, until it's done, but the pain people cause may linger. How long depends, but you should be assertive and forthcommiong about things to the Bishop if it gets out. The reality you can know later is that any pain will all be as nothing. Absolutely nothing. I don't mean forgotten, but in comparing where you were and where you rise to. I won't lie, it can be embarassing, painful, difficult and seemingly endless, until "that" moment. That moment when the Savior calls you friend. There's no time like the present to tell Him you want to come to know Him. Ask Him into your heart,... your very life. Seek to bend your will to His, ask for help in changing your attitudes. Just don't stop at repenting so far as the church is concerned, we are talking about YOU and your relationship with Christ! This is soooooooo worth it.

When I feel the spirit I don't always get teary eyed. The difference for me is when the spirit tells me to say something. When I discuss things of a spiritual nature personal to me then I do, in testimony meeting when I share my testimony, I usually get teary and shaky voice a bit. I don't think it's a big deal when anyone does though

I appreciate the comments. Anddenex points out the progression I experienced. I've never heard that before. I will be giving that some thought. LP, I was a bit unsure weather or not to "expose" my experience. I'm glad you are bouncing back. My experience has left me with such a deep desire for as many as would open their hearts to our Lord, and share the wondrous love He has for us. It just can't be had any other way.

I understand from your observation and anatess's analogy that the worship of a false christ is how some may feel about certain religions. Really, how can any one of us be sure the person who worships next to us is a Christian when we may not even know what they really believe about the Christ, even if they say they do? I have suspected this of some members of the LDS church. But it does seem possible to get wrapped up in so many details it can be fortotten what Christ said, "Ye believe in God, believe also in me." (John 14:1) Still, your question is valid because we are also warned to not follow after false christ's. Yet, when He is in our hearts, it is my experience, we recognize Him in the hearts of others who follow Him. LDS, Catholic, Protestant and all the rest. I'm no expert but I wonder if Christians simply believe in the living Christ, and accept Him into their hearts. I suddenly regret some earlier statements, though not ment to injur, insult or provoke.

You've got me thinking about my youth. Thats a very long story though. Lets just say I lived the LDS lifestyle keeping the normal expected commandments, but I never had that "ask Jesus into your heart" moment. It was weird to me and just didn't fit my version of the LDS world. I see where it has taken me some 20 years or so to get to where I am now, and I had never thought I needed more. When some things no longer met my expectation I had a crisis and needed desperately to resolve it. I even prayed and told God I was going to stop going to church. It was interesting to me that the answer was, "You can do that if you want. Understand that there are consequences to this action". I chose to stay and was led along a path of intense prayer and realized I was indeed a sinner and needed Jesus Christ in my heart,... in my whole life; and in a way I've never known. Suddenly I couldn't ask for forgiveness because I was unworthy. God stayed with me and I knew it and this drove me to ask Him, "why he stayed with the wretch of a man that I felt like?". What happened next I describe it as experiencing His love, but saying He entered my heart works just as well. It was, in fact, the most precious gift I could ever imagine. It's still a bit weird to say it but I was truly born again that day. The Wednesday after my 52nd birthday 2012. The song you mention reminds me when I apologized to God for my poor singing voice, but He told me how much He loves to hear me sing and when He once told me I was His friend. How can I not love Him with all my heart? Talking of eternal life you said, "It's not something I'm waiting for. It's in me now." I know what you know. I say I'm a born again mormon now. I am. It was about 6 weeks when I realized I had not stopped being a mortal man. There's lots to overcome but it's not tied to eternal life like I've always believed, at least not in the same way that I thought. I love being LDS because everything points to Christ, I chuckle about this because it was always there, it was I who changed. It was my Redeemer who changed me. Thank you PC

I enjoy conversations PrisonChaplain brings out. The LDS inside me wants to just point to this church to center my discussion on but my experiences tell me that God loves all mankind and works within our barriers to draw us closer to Him and that can take many forms. We LDS often describe the truth in churches as a musical keyboard, believing that we have more keys of the gospel of Christ (for better or worse). It seems easy to attribute this even among other faiths mentioned. To be more specific to the op, I think a good answer (IMO) would be... because we are commanded to share His Gospel (the Good News) through all the world. To teach Christ "to every nation, kindred, tongue and people." The purpose is not to disparage what they have, but to deliver the 'full' blessings God has for them (hec,... and for us). I realize this may not be well received nor desired by some,... or many, but again, I think God works with what we are willing to accept in this mortal life (Myself included), He is patient, and loving after all. Until we give Him no other choice, but to chastise.

I'm sorry I seem to have hit a nerve. I didn't expect for my view to work for anyone, it's just my view. I was raised pentecostal as a child, my wife was catholic until 17. It was some of those changes you listed that caused her search. As we approach Jesus Christ we become more forgiving, more loving and better Christians if you will. No matter what religious group we come from your analogy can be used across the board, as much as I dislike the imagery of it. I get it though. I do believe that on the other side we all will experience things a bit (maybe a lot more) different outside the comfort zone, or box we have built for ourselves. We all have each other, tragic that we hold on to things that divide us rather than united us in Christ, no matter what the breed. (I still don't like it)

A dog,... Honestly? In a strict view of what you are saying I understand your position. Fortunately, the bottom line is to seek after Jesus Christ. You know the one I mean, He alone is the way, the truth, the light and life of the world. In Him we find love for one another. Jesus (not the dog) accepts the junior as much as the senior upon entry of the straight and narrow path, but it must begin with believe/faith IMO. I don't really believe the LDS or other Christian churches are talking about a different Jesus Christ, we only believe different things about Him. Many are "man" regulated like the word "Christian" as defined by,... well, "man". To you it makes enough of a difference perhaps, to me... after the experience I've had, it does not, but it used to. Yet, we are only talking about our opinions, better to agree on some things and be in harmony than find reasons to act unChristian like. IMO. I do respect your position, but it seems to help divide rather than bring together.

I have been contemplating the question of "what is a Christian" for awhile and have had some meaningful discussions with my now missionary daughter. She has had many such conversations with others as well. It has been interesting but I have found that there is no well articulated meaning. It changes to make one's point. I did a search on this subject in the forums here and found PrisonChaplain had just posted "What do Christians Believe?" and it was an interesting read and I was led further afield. I read on the web a statement by Matt Slick who said this, "Christianity isn't about rules and regulations to follow. It is about a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ." This statement has stayed in my mind because it has been an anchoring point in the last year for me. The thing is, the more I think about it the more I ask, what do you mean when you say "a personal relationship with Christ?" I have not found any past op that has touched this subject so I'm asking for your thoughts. Definitions, experiences or what have you... I chose general beliefs because I'm not directing it to LDS specifically.

PrisonChaplain, I see any particular person who has accepted the Savior as his/her Lord, believes on His name as the author of salvation, and who is following Him or is trying to follow Him should be considered a Christian. Although I have come to view the word "Christian" negatively. I do prefer "follower of Christ" myself. I do apologize, I don't mean to demean things for anyone else, but it really has to do with the "I'm a Christian and you're not" thing. I am sometimes reminded of websites that say, "when you join our site you'll have access to our other partners". Not a bad marketing strategy really. Again, I'm sorry, I don't know how else to express it better at the moment. As to the beliefs of one who is seeking the Savior? At a bare minimum, I've gone 'simple' with 1. Belief/Faith in Christ 2. Belief in repentance (and then repent) 3. Belief they must take upon themselves the name of Christ (in name via baptism) 4. Belief they are making a promise/covenant to always remember Him 5. Belief they are committing to keep His commandments which He has given This does represent the entry onto the 'straight and narrow path' and more can certainly be said of each. Where do we take it? How far? In view of the whole planet and multitudes of Christian denominations should we (all) not keep it more generally simple so as to be more inclusive of each other instead of making the word "Christian" an exclusive club at the expense of the rest? (is this really about making/keeping converts? Tithes?) Beyond a few simple, and may I say, biblical, requirements for baptism, the straight and narrow gate, is there more? Beliefs can only take us so far, when considered alone IMO. It's really the path beyond that propels the individual and fledgeling Christian I read something from Matt Slick on the web who said this, "Christianity isn't about rules and regulations to follow. It is about a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ." As was said earlier, finding the love of God. I think this is a direct correlation of walking the path to Christ. I'm sorry I probably said more than your op delineated, but these things have been rolling around my head of late, though I'm not much of a scholar as some of the others or you are, so I may have been less articulate. Please accept my humble gratitude of your view and your op.

Not too long ago a man in a wheelchair was brought in and placed next to me on the front row. He could only move his left arm and his wheelchair was motorized to lift him up/down and forward/backwards. I honestly didn't know what to do so I left it to the temple workers and paid no attention,... which was not that easy with his oxygen going and all, but I respected the man deeply for being there when it was obviously difficult for him. At one point he requested help which was difficult to understand as it was apparent he could barely talk. At one point a piece of his wheelchair moved and I was going to put it back and he rather pointedly moved my hand away. I looked at him and he was smiling broadly and moved the piece of wheelchair back where it was when I interfered. Anyway at the end he was wheeled out just before the rest of us started to get up for the last part. I don't know what happened then but you can feel sure that those who have mobility challenges are cared for as they go through the temple.

JAG and the others represented well the official doctrine. I would add a couple of other scriptures, not that I'm much of a scriptorium: Psalms 82:6 John 10:34 I was recently ordained to the office of High Priest and was asked if I believe that this is the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, I was also asked about my belief of the Book of Mormon, Perl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants. I answered in the affirmative because I do believe without doubt. I don't know what questions a perspective Bishop is asked, but it does seem like a double standard for someone who is expected to uphold beliefs and standards. But even the Apostle Thomas doubted. (we hue-mons are a complicated lot ). But the individual choices and path to Christ belong to your friend. We all hinder our own progression and strive more or (and sometimes a lot) less to find the Savior. So I resist making a judgement, because all too often I fail to respond better or take action when I should. I need forgiveness too. I guess you see that even though we are all in different places, off and on the path that leads to the Savior, there are many who join together under one roof to worship God our Father in the name of Christ and we all need forgiveness and a chance to seek it via the Lord of Hosts in the time of our habitation on this earth,... well, until it's everlastingly too late. I'm sure there is someone for every single doctrine who is in disagreement, in doubt or replaces it with their own, but isn't that true of every religion? How about you? How can we bless your journey more?

kartvines I do apologize for coming in so late on your thread. Life has kept me away for awhile and I've only recently returned. There has been some good things shared here but I was deeply touched with compassion by what you shared. Not too long ago I realized that I am not "worthy". In fact none of us are... looking at things from the perspective that we are all sinners. Only through the Saviors merits can we be made partakers in Eternal Life. It's really a matter of inching down that path that leads to Him, and at times it's all out war for just an inch. I know what it feels like to feel a void when trying to pray and like I'm just going through the motions. Where do you start? How do you get out of the rut? For me, one day I expressed my concerns in prayer, driving down the highway over several days and finally asked "why He stayed with me on this journey of misery". Eventually, I felt Him answering through the still small voice but I wouldn't let Him answer. I held on to my own feelings of unworthiness and kept talking. He suddenly poured His love into my heart. It was such an over whelming feeling that changed my life from that moment. I know He loves me,... I really KNOW He loves me, and because of that I know,... I really KNOW He loves you too. As I look back, I realize I could not see where the change or difference lay in the path ahead of me. It came at a moment when I was ready and it took a great deal of continuous and relentless praying and agonizing self introspection before it happened. I still don't believe any of us are worthy in and of ourselves, but through Christ, we can be. All you can do is walk that path set by Him, pray continually, repent, ask out loud in private for those things you desire but feel unworthy of. Ask for the ability to forgive yourself. Tell Him and keep telling Him. Work out your salvation with Him and that point of turning will come. Well, what ever your questions, desires and hopes are... lay them at His feet. His blessings for you are waiting, I know it. I waited 52 years to find Him unlike any moment of my life before and I know you can. It's not about advancing in the Priesthood, it's about you and your relationship with your Lord and Master and He's there for you. I hope that wasn't over the top. I just wish His blessings to find you,... and you Him. Don't give up.

A very good post, I wish I had checked it out earlier. I like Travelers thoughts especially. I would suggest that defining "what evil is" would be interesting in the light of this discussion. I like to try to keep things simple so lets see if I can. I think sin is a choice of self interest over the will of God. I don't think sin is evident as "doing something wrong", so much as it is "as a man thinketh" or in my words, it is who we have become already, at least to some degree. I think it shows in our countenance. Our living shows it. Our mouths speak it. "It" being who we are or what we want. In physically sinning, we are only showing what has already been accepted in our minds, thoughts and hearts. When giving in to our desires, passions and self interest the choice was already made within, even if we superficially don't want to do something, but internally, deeply we do. We get close to the edge because we really want to, and...not (at the same time), until we go over. It is in giving in to the will of the Father that bends our wills and attitudes until they reflect His, little by little until we become like Him. It is in "trying" or repentance that brings the blessings of the Atonement (going through the whole process of course). It is in continuously trying with realizations that we have other weaknesses, while overcoming some and struggling with others, that we begin to purge our thoughts, minds, attitudes and hearts of unrighteous desires and replace them with righteous desires until we delight in doing good instead of,... dare I say... doing EVIL! There's that word again. Evil. A condition or state opposite, or in contrast to the condition or state of God. A polar opposite of being righteous, if you will. What then is righteous? Oh here we go again...

Somehow the above was duplicated. Sorry.

Wow, some really good comments. For me, I see that everyone is in a different place... even those who are on the path that leads to Christ. Ya know?, that goal to be like Him,... like His Father, our Father. As we get closer to Him on that path we, at some point, come to "know" His love for us, not an understanding that He loves us, and not a belief that He loves us. But a "knowing" that comes from experiencing His love. We cannot experience that love without also knowing that His love extends to every single person. Every one. We cannot hold a simple grudge without stepping back from Him, consider how much further away desires for retribution take us? At one point it's impossible to really perceive the effects of anger or resentment and it makes sense to personally hold someone accountable, especially when the person seemingly, so desperately deserves it. However, when we "know" His love we cringe at the thought of harming anyone physically, verbally or emotionally. But being human means we can falter and that's what repentance is for. Everyone deserves the opportunity to repent, and some of us take a very long time to do it. Do we have the right to stand in the way of Christ's Atonement for someone else? I don't think we can do that without also standing in the way of Christ's Atonement for ourselves or our own personal progression. Forgiveness for things real or perceived is essential for the collective and the individual. Each of us must be allowed to cultivate forgiveness, ask for forgiveness and develop a Godly love... the best and worst of us. Its all part of the journey on that path marked by our Lord and Master. IMO