rosie321

New vote! New vote! :) BTW You've got my yes vote. Before you get too thrilled by this knowledge Please note: My vote is subject to change depending on how much you annoy me or forget to pay up for my vote:P . ( My vote may have to go independent). Oh yeah I forgot I'm from Florida (alzheimers is setting in) my vote doesn't count. Disregard last line-You don't need that information. Just keep paying and my vote is yours forever. Wasn't meant to be-at least by me, Crimson :)

Or maybe nuetral/ undecided? Btw were there any hanging chads?

Sorry to hear you are going through such a hard time right now .As a habitual fixer upper myself I see glaring signs of it in your post and wish to point out a few things. First your mom is responsible for herself no matter what. Her not paying her rent is not your problem. What did she think would happen? From what you've said everyone IS doing everything for her. The only part she had to do she didn't. She wouldn't even ask for help to pay the extra rent amount until a year had passed. What IS SHE doing to help herself? Be careful to give your mom some accountability for her situation. There has to be something she can do to help out. Don't feel responsible to fix everything for her and be very cautious about taking out a loan for her. It could devastate the family you and your husband seek to build. Has she thought of where she could stay or where some of her things can be stored if she is evicted? This is where you might want to start. Pray for the wisdom to understand the situation for what it is. Is she mentally unstable, into alcohol or other mind altering things, or is she just irresponsible? How can you effectively meet her needs? If she is mentally incompetent then maybe someone needs to step in. Otherwise she needs to bear responsibility and start taking on an active part in the solution. She needs to work at paying off the funds she owes. While you may give a very slanted view it doesn't seem that she is doing anything for herself (she just looks at the floor?) You can't be her continual savior it will drain the life out of you. It sounds like your mom has problems shes dealing with so don't take it personally. Just keep reaching out to her and loving her as Christ commands. Don't look for reasons why you shouldn't have a relationship with her. This may be a huge situation but take it one step at a time and ask for direction. She may have to learn this lesson through cold, hard experience.

The fact is many LDS think the atonement happened in Gethsemane and that is what is being taken in by the membership. This is reflected in these posts and we even had a Sunday School lesson on it about a month or so ago. The church makes such a big deal about details. Yet it seems as though here there is much confusion or discrepancies when it comes to one of the most important things for the christian/LDS. If no other detail is correct information regarding Christ should be presented as 100% accurate. This is His Church. This leads to other questions such as is the truth being taught? Why is the importance of the cross minimized so much? With all the importance given to leaders are we giving them more power than God. Are they drawing their power from God? If so truth and clarity is not so much to ask for.

Christ is the heart of Christianity. Man should be able to know Christ who He is and why He is important to us. It should be undeniably clear. All this trust in prophet and leader opinion concerns me greatly. Isn't that putting another mediator between us and Christ? Christ is our mediator. Shouldn't we be able to refer to God as our ultimate source? Holy Spirit/ Pray to the Father/ In the Name of Jesus Christ. Since when did man have the say over God? Why should we have to go to man as the final say even if it contradicts all that is taught throughout canonized scripture and the majority of writings? Man has been wrong before. Even those in church leadership. Just can't understand why some are coming off so harsh against a fundamental truth (or so I thought) of scriptures. They seem to indicate the importance of the cross and crucifixion. It is only from a few statements that people have overridden the importance of what happened at calvary and placed the greater emphasis on what happened in the Garden. While what happened in the garden is important it is not the event that was spoken of as most important by most apostles and prophets

Do you not consider when the Apostles speak in conference official? Are we not to follow their councils when they speak then? Or do they need to come out with a proclamation... I believe in both. Are they teaching the true gospel of Jesus Christ or not? Are they testifying truthfully or are they painting a different gospel picture? The cross was of great importance to the apostles and throughout history. Now because a few souls say its the garden. Maybe I'm just not "saint" enough but no I don't think I'd follow another person who told me to do something contrary to everything I know to be true. I'd have to know for a surety for myself. Not just because someone told me so. People are imperfect and who knows when they are speaking for Christ or in themselves. The garden moments were known by the disciples and were mentioned in the New Testament. While the saviour did experience much torment in the garden there was the cross, which was the crux of atonement. The apostles following his death acknowledged the cross as the most important event. They knew about his moments in gethsamane yet that was not the thing that they mentioned time and time again. It was the cross. They left their witness for us to read in the Bible. Mentally he did prepare and ready himself. He did suffer great anguish there. But this is not where the atonement happened. Prophet or no prophet in matters of dealing with Christ, the head, I will not be easily swayed to turn from what I know or believe without much evidence to the contrary.

Those who lived at the time of Christ and were a part never once testified of the importance of what happened in the garden as the pivotal point of the atonement. The atonement that we christians were asked to be concerned with is the cross. The biblical prophets taught Christ and Christ crucified. Here are just a few spots to look at Col 1: 14-20 (*vs 20) Colossians 2 :8-20 ( *vs.14) *****1st Corinthians 1:23-24***** *****1st corinthians 2.2******* ****Galatians 2:19-21****** Ephesians 2:10-16 (vs. 16****) 2nd corinthians Phillipians 1:18 The latterday prophets preach what? According to the official statement the Living Christ there is no mention of Gethsamene there as a pivotal point as the atoning part. So what does that mean? If there are other sources in the church that say Gethsamene is it either they are wrong or weren't in the Thus Saith the Lord state of mind. Who is really spreading the gospel that the atonement happened in the garden. How far would you trust a prophet if he teaches another gospel? How could the atonement have happened in the garden and yet there be so many testimonies by prophets to the contrary? The cross has always been presented as the pivotal point. Through scriptures and hymns. Man sinned and had no hope on their own of returning to Heavenly Father. The crucifixion of Christ was a turning point to that. 2nd Corithians 11:3-4. Are LDS really Christian or not then? How do you justify?

Here a few of my favorites Steve Green The Mission Steve Green In Brokenness You Shine Steve Green Find Us Faithful

Had a visual breakdown come to mind about the atonement process. Take the cross + break it to three parts - l - 1. - garden 2. l crucifixtion 3. - resurrection. While 1 and 3 are a part and meaningful. Number two, the crucifixion is the crux of it all. It is the point The needed thing to bring it all together. Without it the others are pointless. The center drives the point home and is grounded.

[b agreed Disagree with you slightly here. Without the resurrection Christ would still be dead. Being spotless his sacrifice would provide temporary redemption of sins just as the animal sacrifices provided. Christs sacrifice was different. His resurrection helped to show that. Christ died and overcame death. Part of the power of the resurrection is that he suffered all and then rose. If it weren't for that we would have no hope. understanding what your major point is I agree with you that there is that what happened on the cross is where the actual atonement or releasing of sin took place. But in the garden there was the point of decision to do God's will or not. To acknowledge and confirm what that will is. To find the strength to do what needed to be done. In our individual lives that is a majority of the battle. We cannot find the atonement relevant in our lifes without this important stage.. Agree. Ask God -James 1:5 and search the scriptures. On an issue as important as the atonement make sure that you understand.

Boy do I feel stupid :) Hope you found some things through all the posts that helps

You've probably already done these already - How old is he? When does he get his nap? Maybe cut back in the naptimes or changing them to earlier? Tire him out more as suggested above. Go for a drive with him in his pajamas. Drive around 'til he falls asleep. Then carefully put him to bed. Gentle nighttime music can be soothing. Does he have a night time buddy to sleep with (the stuffed kind:) ? Have a night time wound down time routine before he goes to bed. Avoid sugars and the like which might get him going.....

He will be missed. He gave some great talks

What does it mean to you? Why is it important?

Just stumbled onto this post. I don't know or recall the age/s of your child/ren. One I like for the elementary ages is Math U See. Charlotte Mason is interesting The fun part of homeschooling as others have said is that you can mix and match to your child's interest and skills they need to master. Ask the school district for what they are teaching or try to find out what children will be taught in the ages you will be teaching. Take what they are doing and use that knowledge to design your own skills based educational curricuum system. Based on each topic you gather together possible reinforcements for the skills. This creates a lot more work for the parents but I think the children learn more in the long run. I don't know what the homeschool regulations are in your area but its good to have a teacher or consultant of some kind to look over your program. Thats what HSLDA recommends. Have you asked any homeschoolers in your area? What do they use? If you can find a good group that would be a great help. Some have curriculum libraries where you can borrow or share materials with others. HSLDA had started a curriculum site. Some people use the library and Bible as their reading curriculum. They don't buy a set Language Arts curriculum. They create their own. They just make up questions, vocabulary and spelling out of the readings. Just some initial thoughts

When you meet the person your impressions will help to guide the discussion. If you don't feel comfortable with them-run They may be a good babysitter but they need to be a fit with your family. Now that I have kids I've become very selective.What are their standards? Can they reinforce yours? Share your rules/things most important to you in a babysitter. See where they stand. Can they support you in this? Can they be consistant in discipline? Give them scenarios that could possibly occur and ask how they would handle them. If they're teachable and seem to be a fit you can teach them if they don't know but it may help to weed out some bad ones too. If they're squirming and it bothers them that you ask maybe you need to look elsewhere. You need one that will take saftey seriously and make your kids a priority. Not spending all their time on the phone, having others over, watching rated R movies, drinking alcohol, etc. Your son has epilepsy are there service providers/ relief care in your area? People who are specially trained? Chances are your son will be alright but the babysitter should be prepared to handle situations as they arise. Always consider the worst case scenario. A young untrained babysitter may not be the best for you considering the special need. In our area there is an organization that has a referral list of specially trained sitters who can handle special situations. Put together an emergency folder for them with all information they might need. With emergency contacts, numbers, allergies, things to avoid, etc. Once you've picked someone give them a tour of the home. Show them where the fuse box is, shutoffs, escape plans so they know what to do. Have this information in the packet too. Another useful thing is to have a signed emergency medical release (for the babysitter / nearest friend or relative) in the extreme case that an accident happens the sitter can get emergency help and they don't have to wait until they can reach you (especially if you are going to be out of contact for a little while or a distance from home). Make sure they have all the information they need. You might want to ask what things that plan on doing with the children too.

I agree that calvary is provides the turning point or climax from spiritual and physical death to life everlasting.I still think Gethsemane its an important, vital part of the process not just an added bonus. Repentence allows oneness with God agreed? If we don't repent the atonement is irrelevant. In the D&C we are asked to repent or we will suffer even as he. It mentions the bleeding from every pore. In the garden Christ came face to face with the sins of the world. He took the weight of them on His shoulders all the way to calvary. During repentence we remember the awfulness of our sins. There is a price to be paid. Without Christs sacrifice that would mean death but trust and faith in Christ provides the grace we need after all that we can do. We can pin it onto the cross as other christian churches might say. Then by resurrections power we do not remain dead but have hope. Only because of the work of Christ. The atonement in my mind is 3 important parts. Think of a seed. It is planted in the ground. It looks dead Then rises up out of the ground and grows. Three is an important number. Can't the most important part of history have 3 parts?

Amen Brother:)

Thanks for your two references. While both implicate the garden of gethsemane in the sacrificial process (ie the garden being one part) it does not emphatically state as it does for the cross its importance in the atonement. I think of it as in the case of a criminal who is preparing for sentencing(in this case Christ was not but he was taking on the sins of the world). The criminal knows his time is drawing near and is filled with guilt , remorse and sadness. Christ did not suffer guilt as we know it because he was innocent but he still suffered the agony of bearing that sin. The weight was part of the sin process. For actual criminals this can be the worst stage recognizing and seeing the sin. In Christs case he hadn't experienced sin like this before. It was part of paying the price of sin and the atonement. To fully understand and atone for all sins. The actual atonement or releasing of sin didn't happen until after the sentencing. Where Christ was sentenced to die. The actual paying for the sins and atonement happened after when he was crucified. So there was where the actual penalty was paid. The verse in D&C indicates that the Garden was part of the atonement process and it is part that we will be subject to if we don't repent and turn to Him. That is how I take the D&C verses. Once again Mosiah would also indicate the garden was a part of the atonement process too. Calvary was where the actually spilling of Christs blood and the actual atonement as we know it took place finished by the resurrection. The resurrection was the culmination. Changing it from just another sacrifice that must be repeated to the final one that is needed (if we choose) There are only two clear supports for the interpretation that Christ suffered for sin in Gethsemane. One is D&C 19 which I discuss here. The other is Mosiah 3:7 which says: And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people. So many people have interpreted that to mean that when it says that Christ was feeling anguish for our wickedness and so forth, he was really suffering the punishment for our sins in our place and in that way, atoning for our sins. That is what I was taught growing up, and what is still taught today. In fact, that very theory was taught in Sunday School about two weeks ago. I find that interpretation laughable at best, when held side-by-side in context with the host of other scriptures and hymns that talk about Calvary being where the sacrifice for sin was offered. Many will say, "But Christ did sweat blood in Gethsemane, and the scriptures say that by the blood of Christ we are redeemed, and the sacrament prayer says we drink the water in memory of the blood of Christ which was shed...so that has to mean Gethsemane!" What such people fail to realize is that the phrase "shed blood" or "have your blood shed" is a scriptural term for murder or killing. A few examples will suffice to establish this: Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. (Gen. 9:6) And thou hast shed the blood of a righteous man, yea, a man who has done much good among this people; and were we to spare thee his blood would come upon us for vengeance. (Alma 1:13) Therefore, it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice, and then shall there be, or it is expedient there should be, a stop to the shedding of blood; then shall the law of Moses be fulfilled; yea, it shall be all fulfilled, every jot and tittle, and none shall have passed away. (Alma 34:13) That last scripture is very clear. It says the atonement will fulfill the Mosaic law of animal sacrifice, and in the law of Moses, animal sacrifices only had efficacy when their blood was shed...when they were killed. The term "blood which was shed" is a specific phrase that refers to being killed or murdered. Christ's unjust death was the sacrifice for sin. Yet I'm confident eight--maybe nine--out of ten LDS members would tell you the sacrament water represents the blood that came from Christ's pores in Gethsemane. This to me is a tragedy, that such an important thing as the atonement should be so misunderstood. What I meant by this is it does not define it as the final moment of atonement as you describe. amen

Aww -Gee thanks

Importance of Christ crucified Just a few verses. I am crucified with Christ– nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me– and the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20 "God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world." Galatians 6:14 Don't know of any anywhere that promote the garden of gethsemane

I agree with your last post Crimson. Yes I did miss all the posts that went before I've always been taught and felt that the atonement was at the cross prior to joining the LDS church. In the NT Paul references the importance of the cross and christ crucified many times. You never hear of what he went through the Garden. When I joined the LDS church I started to incorporate the garden into my view of it after recognizing the importantance of what happened there. It is important to me that people understand the atonement. Whether it be one aspect or the critical stage of it. Do you think the emphasis on the garden is that it is more appealing especially in pictures. LDS are discouraged from references and displays to the Cross or Christ on it? The garden presents a cleaner version of the atonement? Could this be a reason? On the other hand it seems like the church is going against what Paul promoted and based his faith on -"Christ crucified" That does seem sinful and disconcerting to say the least. It minimizes the excruciating cost of calvary and makes it easier to trivialize.

Crimson- Not sure why you are so concerned about where/when the sacrifice happened but that it did. Sin required the sacrifice of innocent blood which happened on the cross. Innocent blood was also shed in the garden of gethesmane. The actions of the cross took the life of christ. If Christ did not rise up again after his death would his death be any different from the animal sacrifices in the O.T.? Would there be any purpose to it? Would it make us one with God. I consider as mentioned above all three parts pivotal to gaining at one ment. Perhaps taking it out there a step further (maybe farther then is reasonable) could looking at it as three steps of atonement be linking us back to all aspects of God (God father, Son, H.S. ?). Making us one again to God? sorry crimson our posts crossed. You're right the resurrection did not remit the sin. Not sure what took place where. I'd place more weight on Calvary too. Since that was where the physical act took place and the savior died. Loved the hymns you quoted above by the way

Regardless where or when the atonement happened..... Thank you Jesus for your sacrifice. Gabelma- Glad you could find something useful in that blurb. You may print it out and keep it. I agree wholeheartedly with you about the resurrection and its part in the atonement. Without it there would be no hope. I'd put that in with the atonement in the last post but I feared I might be going against popular church opinion as it was. Without the resurrection his death would have been pointless and the sacrifice would have been meaningless. Jesus the only hope against sin would be gone forever. There would be no at one ment with God again.

The atonement goes beyond mortal comprehensions and words. Its amazing what our savior did for us. Since joining the LDS church I've always looked at the atonement as a two part event Much like creation was shown to happen in LDS writings. Spiritually and physically. In the garden he mentally and spiritually was anguished. From there His purpose was clarified. He knew what He had to do. Not his will but His Fathers. In some ways the garden may have been the worst for him personally because he was coming to understand what he had to do and the weight of the world. No one can even begin to fully imagine what he must have gone through. Think of times when you are coming up against something you know will be very difficult. You don't want to do it and wish there was another way. That it didn't have to be. Then to see the weight of the sins of others and to feel the pain. That is the hardest point in the process. Once your mission is clear and you know what has to do done it becomes a little easier. Then imagine looking at it through the context that Christ had to. It probably was the most horrendous part. For as we know he bled from every pore. It was mental anguish to the maximum. The Cross was where the act was done. Everything was finalized. This was physically horrendous. The excruciating pain he must have felt. Then to have His Father turn away. That step was equally painful. If the garden was the only part of the atonement then why was he crucified? The crucifixion to me has to be a part of it. For me both areas were a pivotal point in the atonement. Only that in the garden it was focused on the spiritual and mental. The crucifixion was focused on the physical. Then came the resurrection and the hope that it brings. I stand all amazed....