rosie321

That's why I suggest not even considering the idea of religion for a moment. Ask God who He is and what He should mean to you. Don't put any religious restrictions on. This goes deeper than religous customs, social enviornments and ideals. If the religion is based on principles of God then you will be led back to it. (Besides I'm certain there are probably a lot of posters praying for you right now). It seems like your problem may be coming from tying two questions into one. Is the church true and is there a God? If the church is false then there is no God or where can I find him? Is He real. This is what I hear you saying. Seperate out those questions and let God answer them each individually. He will. As far as each religion being different, consider for a minute how much religions have in common and how much truth is found in each. Sure each one different but each has similar ways of doing things. Certain aspects are consistent throughout religions. If you read Muslim works, for example, you'd see many great ideas, be asked to pray, be asked to live to a certain standard. There are ideas and truths of that cross over to different religions. Once you know that there is a God it will start becoming clearer who He is and the way you can best draw closer to Him. You will also grow to identify what is not of God.

Why? I just took Nancy Reagan's advice on that one--100% accurate. JUST SAY NO! lol

Thank you for your words. I felt many things upon reading them. I myself would have given myself the same advice a few months ago. Dig in...but for how long? I'm 27 years old! 27! Why would God make me wait this long for the smallest sign? People in other churches and faiths have visions, life-changing expericences, ect. including the "burning in the busom". I cannot recall experiencing any of that. And if I'm so special, why are other members of this board sending me PM's that I'm not alone in my feelings? Please don't think I'm angry at you or God or anyone...I just feel very frustrated. Thank you so much for responding. I have many doubts, most of them are too confused to put into words. The big one, and the one I've never been able to answer, is why has God established his Church on earth throughout the ages when an incredibly small percentage of people on earth have ever belonged to it! If all history was like the Nephites and Lamanites where the truth was present but people turned their backs on it I would understand. But by crude guesswork I would imagine that only .01% of man since the beginning of time has even heard of His church. Why establish something that is so small, that affects so little? Why make such a huge plan with emphasis placed on our time here on earth when in our time here on earth nobody really knows about the church? Apparantly, the vast majority of missionary work will be done after this world, as well as all the ordinaces required. It just doesn't make sense, I try to think of answers but just end up confused. Seperate God and the Church for a minute. Talk to God. Ask Him to reveal Himself. You might miss God behind the church As far as being 27-how long do you have to wait- How long did Abraham have to wait for his promised child? How long did it take before Christ came to earth. The faith walk is full of waiting Joseph Smith waited 3 years before recieving the plates. Please let me encourage you to take a look at Hebrews chapters 11-13. There it even talks about those who died in faith having not recieved their particular promise. But they knew that God was faithful. I don't believe God would leave such a big question like is he there a mystery. Just keep going, keep asking. It will come.

I agree with your statement that the only approval you need to gain is your Heavenly Father's and fiance but urge caution at the same time. God does place people, particularly parents in our paths, who have hopefully had more life experience and wisdom so that they may help guide and direct. The parents concerns should be thoughtfully and prayerfully considered when making the decision too. If after considering their thoughts you decide to go your own way that's another matter. Like it or not when you marry the family does have a big impact. So its best to live as peaceably as possible and consider the longterm influence they might have on your future relationship.

To some degree every person has that ability. Some have it more so than others imo.People are constantly put in the position of choosing between right and wrong. Weeding through the good and bad. Member and non member alike. Each must constantly choose and stand accountable. So it seems like everyone would have this power to some degree. I also believe that everyone can obtain and develop this gift in their life. Some will be more sensitive to develop this gift than others. Much like one is drawn to sports, another to art. Each person, depending on their lot in life may require different levels of reliance and usage of the gift of discernment. Some people are quite adept at their ability of discernment

She is non practicing at this time or not as much as she should. Yes, I believe my not being in the church is a big part of it. On the other hand my job, home, motivation are not good enough either. His exact words of my accomplishment ares "I'm not impressed". It seems to me, from the outside looking in, is that you are not as prisonchaplain pointed out a practicing, reliable member of the church. Being her father is so active in the church and holds its teachings to be true, he will not easily give up his daughter to someone who does not hold the same eternal values and principles dear. He wants the best for his daughter. In his eternal view your actions will not bring either of you happiness since you are not doing things in the right way. He will probably have a hard time trusting an instant conversion back to the faith too. If you do suddenly become active again he will want to test you until you can prove you won't cause harm to his daughter temporally or eternally. IMO her father is doing the job of a responsible dad

Listen to the PrisonChaplain! Ask God. Be patient. God may not reveal himself to us on our terms or timing. The longer it takes the greater may be the reveal. He may try our patience and faith. You're not alone. Even Christ felt forsaken at times. I like a chapter that is rarely mentioned, Daniel 10 particularly vs. 12 and on. It gives me hope when I am feeling abandoned, overwhelmed, or unworthy despite honest efforts towards experiencing the contrary. In my thoughts and prayers bro.

Your description is good. While most times you have to interact, haven't you ever experienced the rare times where you just knew about somebody or a particular situation? Or felt strongly one way or another about a situation even though you can't explain why? Have you ever struggled with what you see with your "spirtual eyes" in that it is obvious to you certain things and not to others? Or feel overwhelmed by the magnitude of what you see that others might not? It is a tricky prospect trying to put into human language an explanation for this particular gift. One thing about this gift or another gift from God is that he expects it to be used for the good or he will remove it from you and it will turn against you.

I like the way you pointed out Crimson that God gives people this Gift to help others. To see what their needs are and their potential. While discernment is present to some degree in all, otherwise they wouldn't be able to understand spirtual things, some have an added measure given by God. With the added abilities comes greater responsibility. It can be a scary prospect seeing into someone and get an idea of what their potential is and who they are. Almost like a doctor seeing you at your most vulnerable. The responsibility is great which is why some are given that extra measure of responsibility and accountability. The Gift of discernment is one of the gifts that a patriachal blessing may help identify(if you are LDS).

To me, the gift of discernment enables some people greater sensitivity to recognize whether or not something is of God and what would be acceptable or not. When I think of gifts that people have, I think of the description used in the bible that the church is like a body. Every part has its own duties. Using the symbolic heart description (not the actual physical characteristics), a heart feels things or sees things to a stronger degree then other parts of the body. The other parts have different duties in the body of the church. Their focus is on something different. For example the feet may keep things moving etc. A person with the gift of discernment would be able to do best do the duties to which that part of the body is assigned. The person would be able to have greater sensitivity and recognize what things are of God and not. This would be their area of strength in the body. Things would go more smoothly as the body part did its duty.. The different body parts have different duties and why it is necessary for members to gather since no body has every gift. Other body parts may be able to make up the difference but it will be much harder. If the one part of the body is injured or under attack it affects all. I know that this gift is still in action, it is still important and has been promised to some members . It is also mentioned in scriptures and has never been removed .

When I think of judgement day/heaven I can't help but think of Matthew 25, particularly the section vs 31 and on. where Christ seperates the sheep and the goats. The righteous are so wrapped up in doing that they are not concerned with how things appear here on earth. They reach out to everyone. After all their work, they are still humbled in the presences of God. Scriptures say that "all knees shall bow." In a way you see the righteous humbled before God. They are shocked when God commends them for helping Him. Then He rewards the righteous and recieves them into His Kingdom. The wicked on the other hand brag about what they have done. They are crushed, as stated in other posts by what they haven't done. There is no turning back the clock at that time IMO heaven will be filled with a lot of humbled people, who have spent their time, however long, working to serve the Lord the best they can. These will be people who recognize the joy and have a heart full of gratitude.

So Stawberry how is everything going with your rocks? Have they all rolled away yet-with help or not? Hope you are doing better.

Let me clarify what I meant. Once we have an opportunity to meet with our HF and KNOW, beyond all doubt, that we didn't live up to our potential and that we rejected the offering of the Savior to stand in our place, I believe that is what King Benjamin was speaking of when he talked of the 'worm that dieth not' and 'eternal flame' of shame. Our HF is all knowing, perfectly kind and loving, but WE would be so savaged by our short-sightedness and laziness while here in doing what we knew to be right (and I'm not speaking simply of church members, but all members of the human race. We are judged according to the light we had, remember), that we would feel so bad that we DISAPPOINTED our HF and that it would be too uncomfortable to live with him. He wants us there, but WE will be the ones that will shy away because we will know then we don't belong. It is kind of like (and this is a very loose analogy, granted, but it kind of works) when we have said something nasty about someone, that person finds out about it, and we run into that person somewhere. If you have any type of conscience, you feel about 1" high and wish you could get away as quickly as possible, especially if that person treats you kindly. To me, it would be the same type of discomfort, multiplied a google times... agree 100% with you. That doesn't happen often does it B) ?

agreed. Think of your own life now. To me, there is no greater hell on earth than to be living in a crowded city, with people everywhere all the time. My own version of heaven would be somewhere in Montana where my closest neighbor was a mile or so away so they'd leave me the heck alone. My wife is the EXACT opposite of that, although I have brought her more to my side...I don't know how we are going to handle eternity together! Maybe a winter and summer home (or something akin to that??)? Sometimes in church you can see people that are very uncomfortable, for whatever reason. I'm not judging them, but if being in the presence of hypocrites and sinners (which we all are!) bothers them, just think how bad it would be under 'the all-seeing eye of a just God' that knows every last sinful tendency and thought we have... I'm with you on the crowded part. I hate to see how much people change when in a group. (The change is not usually for the good ). As far as the uncomfortability aspect of what you said Six, I'd much rather be under the watchful all seeing eye of God then others who can not see the complete plan God has for my life or how he will bring to pass His plan for me. I've seen some heartbreaking instances where people have stepped outside of their bounds to make others feel uncomfortable, lose faith and trust in God, and in His plan for their life . Church and the people in it are not always a perfect reflection of what God intended therefore by interacting with others all will be uncomfortable in church at some point at time There's nothing wrong with that. Those feelings can be helpful in directing people to whats God's will and not. Just pray to God, read scriptures as asked, follow in His footsteps and trust God to do the rest This is a good post. Why would anyone want to spend eternity in Heaven with a God they do not know? I can't imagine that they'd be anything but miserable either. The good thing is those that work to make others lives miserable probably won't be there so I don't have to worry to bad about being miserable in heaven like it might be possible at church. A lot of people that go to church probably won't be there. That is of course if I make it myself

Just looked back in. Sad to hear of your news. So I'm just sending these to you They're cyber hugs so they shouldn't hurt too bad for laughters sake couldn't find flowers so this was the best I could do . :pray: :pray: Sending you lots of these too. They always seem to come in handy;)

Thanks Onyx! Great links! Hi Lona, I have two friends who took their own lives. It is very difficult to come to terms with for the family and loved ones. The circumstances of the death make it so much harder. It is wonderful that you want to help your friend. There are a couple of links in lds.org that address suicide and how to assist those left behind. They may be useful and helpful to you in comforting your friend from a gospel point of view: http://lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem..._&hideNav=1 http://lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem..._&hideNav=1 I hope your friend has lots of people in his life like you who care about him Onyx

Your friendship will be especially helpful to him later on. If I were in his shoes, I would feel reassured knowing my friends cared about me. As others have said so wonderfully be there for your friend. In the silent moments as you are there with him and don't know what to say pray silently. Your support will mean a lot. Please careful of "pushing" gospel principles onto your friend. Or in the hopes of trying to help and protect him become too overbearing. It could have the counter effect and create more despair for him. His pain is very real. Pushing him faster than your friend has strength might push him to quit because he feels he doesn't have the fortitude of strength or becomes disallusioned and angry with God. Few understand why a person would commit suicide. For most in religious circles suicide is considered wrong or evil act (for good reasons like valuing the gift of life that God gave us and not encouraging others to do the same). But his families pain is intense. The son may even be questioning his fathers eternal state. Please continue to be there for your friend and "mourn with those that mourn." Protect him from those who'd want to throw upon your friend condemnation and more pain. There are people I am aware of that will pretty much shun those whose members have committed suicide. I hope this is not the case here. I don't know the kind of person your friends dad was the Lord does and will take into account this mans life, illnesses etc that would make him to such a thing. He will also righteously judge those who do not watch out for this family and mourn with those that mourn. It pains me to hear stories like this. When I suffered the sudden loss of my non member parent, the pain was excruciating. After the death and funeral were done my heart was broken. It was like I was in another world for days. The pain cut very deep. Even though I am LDS & have the extra belief of baptisms for the dead, this belief could not erase the pain. With the added measure of pain that suicide brings I can only begin to imagine the grief your friend must be going through:( My prayers go out to your friend and family. Lona-it sounds like you're on the right path

What's your theological worldview? You scored as a Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan You are an evangelical in the Wesleyan tradition. You believe that God's grace enables you to choose to believe in him, even though you yourself are totally depraved. The gift of the Holy Spirit gives you assurance of your salvation, and he also enables you to live the life of obedience to which God has called us. You are influenced heavly by John Wesley and the Methodists. Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 75% Emergent/Postmodern 61% Classical Liberal 57% Neo orthodox 57% Reformed Evangelical 50% Charismatic/Pentecostal 50% Roman Catholic 46% Modern Liberal 36% Fundamentalist 36%

My wife's family attends a First Presbyterian Church in Arkansas. When we visit we always go as a family. The pastor gives great sermons usually well rooted in the New Testament and in the words of Christ. I'm not certain I have ever heard any false doctrine preached there. The music is wonderful and the prayers inspiring. I have noticed that I seem to have a more spiritual experience there than my wife's family! They are there because of tradition and the social engagement. They never speak of the principles mentioned in Church. You see no sign within them that they felt anything particularly special. When I talk to them about what was said in Church they typically say something like: 'Perhaps you should discuss this with the Pastor.' I can even say that I felt the Spirit there. But I would ask: 'Can I feel the Holy Ghost only when a Mormon speaks of the Gospel?' During the night of the Great Apostasy, there was no Priesthood holder to perfrom baptisms and confirmations, does this mean that people could not pray and speak of Christ? Could they not feel a witness of the truth by the Spirit? How did Parley P. Pratt have such a testimony of God and possess the power of revelation before becoming acquainted with the Church? Should people speaking of Christ, singing praises, and offering prayers be given a cold and vacant feeling from God therein simply because they are not in an LDS Chapel? If you engage in prayers and in singing praises with non-members, should the experience be void of the Holy Ghost by virtue of their involvement? A great many people have come into this Church because of what they are taught in others. They were prepared by God. The work of God is not limited to the work of the Restored Church, but it is unto all men. -a-train This is a good post:). I have enjoyed reading the dialogue. Having had "dark nights of the soul" myself its helpful to put things in perspective. In the LDS faith there is the acceptance of the statement that it is the true church. This can lead to the impression that other faiths are completely false. But don't they all have precious truths? Can't God use those to touch us? Are they all inferior? Sometimes I think those from different faiths serve God more diligently and sincerely. I owe a great debt to those of other faiths. For introducing me to the gospel and to Jesus Christ. For showing me how to care for and serve others. Sometimes, maybe because I have grown up this way I find myself more connected and easily reached by God in others faiths. Then I feel guilty that I might be having an LDS spiritual crisis or fear that maybe the church is not right after all. I don't always feel so easily reached by God in the LDS church. Some times I almost feel pushed away or overwhelmed. Despite those feelings I do go back to the LDS church but feel like a sheep in wolves clothes at times because I feel the way that I do. I am not trying to look for exits out of the LDS church. I don't want to be lukewarm either. I see much good in and out of the church. Other churches don't claim to be the only way either. Its good to see others express the same thoughts and feelings.

Do we know for sure what the supervisors intentions were? Were there any hidden pressures applied? In the world of business and politics sometimes there are behind the scenes pressures. While the supervisor should be honest and truthful aren't others under christian obligations too- love, forgiveness...? No harm to anyone? Is there any good way to let people know they are going to be losing money? That the company is in bad shape and needs to cut expenses? What difference would this knowledge have made? Couldn't it have made things worse? Those who could not handle the loss would choose to look for another job no matter how the information was presented. Instead of getting people all distressed these families were able to enjoy quality time with their family. Work quality did not decrease during that time because people weren't all discouraged by the future. A temporary cut in the business world might be enough to turn around a flailing company.. If work ethic is high, people are happy the tough period might be passed and they might get their money back later on. On the other hand, if they thought the company was failing the work quality may have changed, workers may have left forcing more expenditures on training new employees... The supervisor may be christian but he still is human. The supervisor cannot control everything. Did he profit from his employees suffering? If he got a bonus through the cuts maybe he could ask that the bonus be divided up. Otherwise I do not see that the supervisor did anything contrary to scriptures or his christian beliefs. The rain falls on the just and the unjust. The employees agreed to the wage change. Reminds me of the parable in the bible about the laborers who started at different times. The first agreed to the pay and the other came along and the first was upset because the other got paid more. In today's business climate I guess I just can't see that the supervisor did anything wrong from the scenario you presented.

1 and 2 make me think of the idea of premortal council. 1. We were presented with a plan. We agreed. 2. Did we REALLY understand what the consequences would be for our decision? Did we understand all the pain and heartache that we'd experience? Here we are. The choice is made. Deal with the consequences knowing you chose the option. These people have a job. They enjoyed the extra time with their families. If the expenses were not cut, in the future would they have a job at all? If this boss did not do this most likely someone else would have come in who would not care at all.

Some thoughts and questions that come to mind: Break ties, walk completely away seem like strong words (that might be needed). Might those words be a problem? Completely away just seems so final. It's almost as though you are looking for an excuse to not have to deal with them? As a christian can we ever or should we ever just walk away? My experience in this type of situation has been those in which people just stop talking to or dealing with one another but don't give any warning as to why they are not dealing with another. Or there's the blitz attacks and everyone goes running off afterward to lick their wounds and prepare for the next battle. Then there are hurts that never are addressed and then all of a sudden people declare I have enough of the pain. They expect the other person to know and understand that what they are doing is wrong. But do they? How can they if they do not know or fully understand the consequences of their actions? Even Christ on the cross begged his father to forgive those who killed him for they did not know what they did. Christ implores us all to go out and seek the 1 lost sheep. He places great worth on all his children. Maybe there is something about getting in there and defending yourself and the truths you hold dear? Stand true to sacred things. Help your family members understand the pain they have caused and encourage them to repentence. Pray for them. From my experience few actually get in there and fight for righteousness then wonder why evil is taking over. Taking drastic measures could potentially destroy the good that could come from the situation. As Christians don't we seek to further good things? Not knowing the details of your particular situation, or your past encounters might I suggest maybe taking a break from your family rather then the forever break? From your past posts, you have a lot of burdens on your life right now and are pulled in a lot of directions. Its no wonder why this would be up for consideration. A person can only take so much. Maybe just spend time with your immediate family this year and take a break from the rest of your family to renew your spirit? You have been through so much. Take the time to renew the spirit within you. You might need that. Dealing with your family might not be a good idea at the moment as they might pull you down. Building up the spirit in your life is a more positive picture then walking completely away, IMO There are times where you might just have to walk away but I think too many people are walking away from good opportunities for growth and learning. Pray for the wisdom

This attitude burns me up. Poor LDS that we are. I'm not insulting you. Why is everyone always picking on us? Could you at least try and see things from the other point of view. Empathize a little? You are basically calling everyone outside the church worthless for their belief. Other people are worthless in comparison to the mormons who have everything perfectly together. All the sacrifices and love these families have shown the marrying member mean nothing. For those who have families that can not understand do they really deserve the expressions-Oh well deal with it? Join or else you can't cherish a moment you have waited your whole life to experience? Can you not at all see where this might be hurtful or percieved as an attack against non members? Why they might be at least a little bit angry and possibly even bitter about it? Ideally every LDS should be married in the temple. But aren't we also given lattitude in free agency and encouraged to prayerfully apply this principle, as all others, to our own lives? Christ gave up his own life for us. Aren't we to have that same love to one another? If waiting a year will be beneficial for a prayerfully considered individual circumstance then why should that be a problem? That's different from not wanting to do it or not wanting to put God first. Some people want the temple marriage so much. Could a sacrifice not be waiting and showing care and compassion for others?. BTW what happens tomorrow if the church decides that its alright to civilly marry tomorrow? Or the country adapts the same laws as other countries? Everything would change

Thanks everyone for your concern. Onyx the poem you posted is one I love too :) There has been a long season of death and dying lately in our family, amongst our friends and others we deal with. Some deaths have been heartbreaking or sudden . While gospel principles are not foreign to me. It still hurts a great deal and its easy to question God in some of the situations Gospel principles are not always a comfort to me either. My christian roots says that you believe in Christ and are saved. If not you aren't. The time for choice is in this life. Did the person believe or didn't they? Did they believe with a sincere heart? Then the LDS church believes in the spirit prison and paradise. All will wind up where they should by the power of their choice. Will they do all they can do? Its hard not knowing what will become of those who have touched our lives so much. That Heavenly Father has used as an instrument in his hand at one point of time or another to make an impact in our lives. Witnessing what some of these people sacrificed or what they had to go through in this life breaks my heart. I want to believe that God will reward justly and that all will have every opportunity to return. But its just really hard to have faith on that with some of the things I've seen while trying to serve God. Sometimes I can't help but wonder if all this belief in God is just a mirage either. Something that isn't true but people are encouraged to believe to make life easier to live. All the religous upbringing I've had screams at me there is a God. The sting of death is huge . I really miss the ones who've passed on. I'm trying to believe..... but some days are more difficult than others.

Beautifully put Jason :)