Anddenex

I'm not sure how recognizing the doctrine of first and second estates, and a potential covenant within those being vague, and that it would cheapen the word -- covenant. Keeping our first estate results in specific promises. Keeping our second estate (and the blessings attached) is also encompassed in covenants. If our second estate results in covenants it seems plausible our first estate also is the result of covenants. It doesn't cheapen the word covenant. It doesn't make "EVERYthing" a covenant just because God governs everything. Would you be able to identify the ordinance God specifically did with Abraham for the Abrahamic covenant to be the Abrahamic covenant? There are ordinances within the Abrahamic covenant, but those ordinances also existed before Abraham. What ordinance are you aware of that Abraham specifically received for the Abrahamic covenant?

The outcome of the second estate, from keeping our first estate, is a promise (covenant) between the Father and his sons and daughters. Part of a covenant meaning defined (Bible Dictionary), "God in His good pleasure fixes the terms, which man accepts." One could then include "The Plan" as given by our Father in heaven is covenant based. We agreed to the terms as outlined by the Father, thus we are here seeking to keep our second estate.

These are items I ponder when considering the neutral stance of Church leaders regarding the location of the Book of Mormon: 1) I once read in a book that Joseph Smith once said that the Nephites and Lamanites spanned all of North (including Canada) and South America. We know a group of Nephites sailed, returned and sailed again never to return. So, there could be many places that could be seen as the "right" spot for the Book of Mormon. 2) Are they neutral because the Lord has not given them permission to specify? I can see this for a couple reasons. The first would be the Lord is trying the faith of his sons and daughters. If the Lord doesn't want it revealed, the prophets/apostles will not be able to reveal it -- ergo -- neutral stance. The second would be anti-Church and ex-members who are looking for any opportunity to discredit the Church while calling themselves "critical thinkers" and "trust seekers." When in reality they are looking for any reason (even if it isn't a complete truth) to remain in their stance. The Lord could reveal. Then "evidence" could be found that it could be another place (refer to #1), and then these individual use this "evidence" to discredit the Church, uprooting wheat with the tares. We could probably think of plausible reasons other than these two as to why the Church remains neutral and continues with what has always been done. .......... Where does that picture come from regarding the Hopi?

By who or what or how was the weight of these sins being carried prior to the atonement? By who: Christ. A statement in the Book of Mormon (paraphrased), that I love, is that the Lord spoke as though his "work" had already been accomplished. We also have the doctrine of "proxy." From the time of Adam to Jesus Christ sacrifices were made in proxy of the atonement. Justice was owed and justice received his due through animal sacrifice. This correlates with the doctrine of the great and last sacrifice. The concept of "translation" gives credence that the atonement was working and satisfying the demands of justice the whole time. The city of Enoch is another example of how the atonement was satisfying the demands of justice and mercy, otherwise this city could not have been taken up to God. Yet, the concept of a "Spirit World" where the saints were even held before Christ was resurrected gives evidence to justice holding its dues -- so to speak. The door was not yet opened, and yet even in the Spirit World we are informed of the different states (two states) that exist. Those who know they are damned and those who know they are "alive" in Christ. If a person before the atonement truly repented of their sins, did the penalty or the weight of those sins go unpaid until the atonement was performed, because it was only the atonement that produced the currency required to pay for those sins? (rest of the question fall within this question) It was paid, the atonement of Jesus Christ is infinite. In the eyes of God, it was already performed. All things are present before him: past, present, future -- might correlate to the Buddhist thought: there is no past, present, or future. There is only present past, present present, and present future. A different way to say all things are "present" to God.

I would say all of the above. We are informed in scripture that our reward will be based upon the Spirit/spirit we list to obey. If we are listing to obey the wrong spirit, then that spirit could increase our understanding toward anything false. We may have a foundation of some truth, and then they by small and simple mean form/create a new concept within that foundation. We all are given the light of Christ to know good from evil. This means we already have formed, by the light of Christ, a knowledge of good and evil. Depending on what we call -- good or evil -- the foundation then can be changed. Easy example -- "God doesn't make mistakes." The statement by itself is true, but look how this statement has been used to fall away from truth and start living a lifestyle that is obviously sin -- against God.

We appear, in this thing, to share the same thoughts. I didn't vote for Trump in 2016. I did vote for him because I started gaining sympathy/empathy for a man: 1) Who wasn't a full time politician. Who actually worked in the workforce all his years before running for president. 2) Who was targeted by "all" media (even those who were considered "neutral" outlets). When I looked into every case I could find facts upon it was easy to see a bias, not truth, or twisted truth. 3) The continued assault to impeach him with no evidence but simply to seek to find anything and everything they could to remove him. When people are misrepresenting, fault finding, trying to dig up anything and everything they can against someone -- my mind thinks -- there is something this guy is doing right otherwise the "liberal" side wouldn't keep attacking him. 4) The guy brought out one of the most heinous pedophilia syndicates, and we know all about his visits (but no charges). YET, for some reason the list of people on who visited (excluding Trump -- maybe some others but I don't know) -- are being totally hid from the public. They should be scrutinized just as much as Trump and we should be seeing court dates of those involved that they know were potential "statutory rape' cases. I could go on but this is enough. I would probably vote for him also again, because if the Dems hate him so much he must be doing something right for America -- constitutionally.

The more I see Trump investigated, the more it is going to be hard to believe if anything "really" comes up. Trump called out Epstein. Trump probably has more knowledge on the despicable nature of many of our rich elites and politicians. Imagine if Hillary and Bill were treated in the same way the Democrats have gone after Trump. We already know the FBI is weaponized, assuming it is accurate that the FBI was used to retrieve a journal of the president (hmm....what was in that journal if the FBI were used to break in?). Trump was assisted by Russians....crickets...but it appears the Clinton's had more ties with the Russians (irony a little). There are signs of tyranny for sure, and this would be one of them. We already know the IRS has been weaponized also, and now (shocker) we have a bill to increase the number of workers -- who is going to be investigated with scrutiny? The signs are all there, we are seeing the same result with Nephi after his prayer on the tower. The one's in fault, and knew they were in fault, were pinning their evil works on Nephi. We are at this point or nearing this to a further degree. Those who were truly evil, excited the minds against Nephi. I'm not likening Trump to Nephi/Moroni (that was the worst thing Arizona governor/senator?? could have done). I'm simply saying those who are truly corrupt/evil will turn their angst against someone calling out their ploys and excite the public mind against them such that they even begin to believe someone who is innocent is guilty, and those who are guilty are the victims.

First Question: This is from the "Content" of the JST from the Church, "The Lord inspired the Prophet Joseph Smith to restore truths to the King James Bible text that had become lost or changed since the original words were written. These restored truths clarified doctrine and improved scriptural understanding....Joseph’s translation was more revelation than literal translation from one language into another." Second Question: If the Lord inspired Joseph Smith to "restore truth" then yes, we technically should differ to them within our wards and callings.

In some ways, I wish this were as easy as Spencer W. Kimball's quote, "Do it." We are informed in scripture to take the "yoke" of Christ upon us. We have wonderful poems, analogies, that say when you see only one set of footsteps it is because the Lord was carrying you at that time. We come up with other analogies to comfort, or try to comfort, our hurting souls. In practice for us to fully practice this we must be "fair dinkum" -- fully committed. This correlates with with what Omni said, "offer your whole souls as an offering unto him." This is why it is also hard, because the majority of us, in practice, do not fully commit and give our whole selves unto the Lord. We seek to maintain - self. To cast fully our burden on him, means we lose "self." When we look over scripture we can see highlights of how this looks in practice (even in not in perfection): 2 Nephi 4 Alma the Younger who remembered the words of his father about a Savior Stephen upon being stoned who saw the heaven's open Nephi upon being tied by his brothers allowed his suffering to be caught up in Christ Alma and the Nephites when seized upon by the Lamanites And many others I'm writing this, full well, knowing I'm not yet 'fair dinkum' -- at one point I felt like I was fully committed -- until I had some experiences in life that shifted many thoughts of mine. The shift is all do to the word "self". If we take Lehi's counsel, invitation, to Laman and Lemuel to be righteous like unto the river they past flowing continually into the sea of righteousness. As we look further into the analogy, when the river flows into the sea are we able to tell the difference between the water in the sea and the water coming from the river? No. But if we seek to maintain "self" then we ultimately seek to maintain our ways, our truth, and our life.

This is true.

Yep, a specific site that wants members to "think" are just this type of individuals. At least the ones who are in charge of the site. They are a prime example of this meme.

Same. It makes absolutely no sense to restrict where a person can work if they come into the US. This is a subtle attack against religion -- to be frank by the great and abominable church.

@scottyg - Here is another example of the attack against religion that is happening. My daughter works at the MTC. She has befriended a wonderful Korean girl who is from Korea. She can no longer work at the MTC because of a new rule that has been implemented this fall semester. If you are on a Visa they prohibit you from working for a religious organization. There is no logical or good reason for this restriction. If a person comes to America on a Visa they should be able to work anywhere that offers a job. The devil works by small and simple means. We will see how this unfolds also.

Yep, and something I never saw (at least from this brother) has already removed me from his life. He initiated the setting on Facebook where I can't see him anymore nor any post even if we post on the same message. He even told our mother that it was either him or me, and he now has blacklisted her because she chooses both (the shame of her to love both sons). It's sad (oh well, his choice) but this is exactly what we have been warned about. The devil will rage in the hearts of men in the last days, and he will pit them against their brother/sister. This is because I don't adhere to the ideologies of mammon with regards to the LGBTQ.

Yep, this is a perfect example, and yes, if we look at the Bible and the Book of Mormon we know before Christ came the first time those that believed were targeted by those that did not. What will be even more concerning is the members of the Church who are in support and do support such actions. We will see this also, and already are seeing this to a point.

I'm going with, Hyrum.

This is one thing I have concerns about. We are already seeing this form of intimidation in many avenues.

Indeed the Father and Son rule, and they also minister. For we know our Savior "ministered" to the people in the Spirit World. In the context I was providing, minister is an appropriate word here.

Yep, agreed...thus I'm interested to see if a similar thing will happen in the US, and how quickly it will go to the supreme courts. It should never be even a charge in the first place, but we will see.

I'm unsure how this will play out in the US, but with more Socialists and Leftist ideologies and philosophies I wouldn't be surprised that we will start seeing this soon in the US either.

In light of the breakdown between kingdoms which may have some truth; unless of course, my understanding of what I have been taught and understood is wrong. Celestial - ministered unto my the Father and Son (Jesus Christ) Terrestrial - ministered unto by the Son (Jesus Christ) Telestial - ministered unto by the angels (Father and Son are removed) O.D. - No glory So to a degree, the division could easily be what you have suggested. I'm also reminded of the individual in the NT who was giving blessings (if I'm remembering correctly) and the apostles wanted to stop him, but the Lord stopped the apostles with some counsel about the individual doing "good."

I wasn't worried, nor did it enter into my heart. I thought the question, overall, was a good question. Mercy is one character trait we all could better understand and apply.

In order for something to be merciful, it must reflect accurate what mercy is. As was already brought up, we can ask a similar question with regards to love in relation to the potential kingdoms. Which do you think is the most loving arrangement? A) All are saved because God's love is complete and unconditional -- only Celestial B) All are saved who choose to be saved - Celestial and hell C) All are saved, except sons of perdition -- Celestial, Terrerstrial, Telestial, and Hell From the provided list, I would choose B because it reflects more what mercy actually is. This is why I also appreciate the scripture lesson regarding "spheres of truth." Mercy is within a sphere of truth, and as long as it remains within it's sphere it is merciful. The moment it extends outside of it, it will either rob justice or no longer be merciful. This is where we see people who are "enablers" which extends beyond the bounds of mercy and begins to rob justice.

JP Strikes again: