The Folk Prophet

And yet, even in the generics, there cannot help but be a very strong implication of judgement, particularly against our leaders. No. They are just not the miracles that you want to see. But there are miracles, a plenty. I have witnessed them myself. I suspect you have too, but you've, apparently, closed your mind to them because they don't strike you and fantastical enough. Apparently you miss that my facetiousness is intended to imply that I feel it is you who is taking the real, tangible power of faith and relegating it to the realm of only the those extreme examples we read about in the scriptures, and thereby deny the true, and meaning miracles that occur around us all the time. In this we agree. Where we do not agree is in implications that by not doing this we are not manifesting faith, or that doing anything like this would conform in any way to the will of God. But, yes, we all should believe that we could do this if it were God's intent for us to do so. And yet everything you're saying contradicts this and screams that how it manifests is, indeed, quite "material" to you. I have. There is no resistance whatsoever to this idea, and the fact that you believe there is tells me that you do not understand at all what I'm saying. I believe, very firmly, that all things are possible to him that believeth. I also know, quite well, that what really matters in life is the saving of souls, and that is how God's miracles are primarily manifested. But you seem to be saying much, much more than this. As I replied to James12, there is, clearly, a need for us all to continue to work on our faith. Of course. But the implication that the church is dwindling in some stagnant quagmire of non-faith is dismissive of the incredible and marvelous work the Lord is bringing about through His faithful servants who go about humbly doing His will. Yes, it should be all 15 million of us...and more. No, it's not. But to imply (scratch that...to outright say) that miracles have ceased is just...well...faithless.

I think Finrock's reply is apropros. It is important, however, that we exercise wisdom. But, as implied, that wisdom can be learned by listening to the Holy Spirit and, of course, using our brains and not being overly fanatical or extreme, but sincere and willing.

I think you'd better check your Book of Moroni a bit closer. Chapter 8: 10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children. 11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.

Right. But as I read it, the suggestion was not that the Spirit would necessarily prompt someone that they "should" drink it -- a fairly outlandish idea (which, of course, even then, as you point out...extreme situations...), but rather that one might be given an answer that it's acceptable to do so in moderation.

I should throw a tizzy fit like some do and respond with, "How dare you put limits on what the Spirit might tell us!?" * On a serious note, it does strike me that it is obviously a possibility, which is, afterall, what was said. A possibility. * And, perhaps infer/imply that you're obviously lacking in faith? Over emoticoned response!

You're only presuming error. I'm not saying you're wrong in every case. But how do you know? You're just presume that it's an excuse? Sometimes, sure. But I think it's, as with many things, not our place to judge such. But...sure. Some people, of course, rest on their laurels and never progress spiritually and claim it's God's will when in reality they simply haven't made any effort to grow spiritually. That's obvious. My problem is with the idea that someone not moving mountains or parting seas is evidence of this, and/or that the solution is for everyone to quit their jobs because if we had faith we'd just do magic to survive.

It's not obvious that someone with bad health needs to eat differently than someone with good health?

I think this is obviously the case -- even promptings aside and relying upon wisdom alone. When I was 20, even drinking a can of sugary soda a day wouldn't have affected my health one iota. Nowadays a can of that stuff would be very, very bad. My metabolism has slowed, I have heartburn issues, joint issues, etc., (I don't really know if sugar affects the joints, but....) At 20, only a can a few times a week or so would have been in moderation. Now it would be excessive and very, very bad for me. This is, of course, true of all eating. There are people who can eat "normally" and be perfectly healthy. If I do not carefully control my eating, keeping my calories in check and my macro-nutrients in order I pay for it in a variety of weight. If I simply ate "normally" (particularly American diet "normal), I would be in very, very bad health.

Stating the fact that miracles are according to God's will does not equate to putting limits on what the Lord is willing to do for us.

Yes. But how many of them have been separated from the wheat vs. left to grow amongst them? It's not like those celebrating all got excommunicated or otherwise. This, of course, could get into an interesting discussion as to what it means in the scripture to be separated. And I will grant that a simple separation as to spirituality and harmony of mind might be part of the meaning. My sense is that it means more than just that. Of course, according to D&C 86, the parable is not necessarily speaking of a separation within the church at all. So..... ??

Well this is just beyond any sense of reason...so far to the point that I cannot see any value in continuing the discussion. So I guess...go ahead and quit your job and go turn rocks into bread if you believe this is God's will. Good luck.

Well this misses my point entirely.

This is an interesting question. I think there is, likely, a level of reasonable balance that would need to be applied, but wherein the line is, I'm not sure. We should keep in mind that fasting and praying is a sign of our faith and commitment, and not the cause of anything themselves. There is no, pray 3 times a day and get 3 blessings, pray 4 and get 4, sort of relationship to it. But the scriptures also speak of things coming after "much" prayer and fasting. Conversely, the "making of many prayers" was one of the corruptions of religion of Israel under the later kings. Point being, I think we can, theoretically, abuse over-praying, and actually turn it into a lack of faith rather than a sign of faith. The same applies, per the thread, to fasting. Once again, I have no idea where that line is drawn. I'm just sharing my thoughts.

I'm not sure I agree with "completely".

Because, Puf, there is no doing of our own will when it comes to these things, ever. The will of God will be done. The works of God will be done. As God wills, so it will be. And that is the exercising of faith -- not turning stones into bread so we don't have to work anymore, particularly when it is, plainly, and scripturally, and taught by the prophets through the ages, the will of God that we earn our keep by the sweat of our brow. Miracles by faith cannot rightly be described as being the accomplishment of anything we want by some magical power of belief. That has no relationship to the truth of faith and miracles whatsoever. Faith is commitment to doing the will of the Father, and miracles come by His hand, not our, according to His will, not ours. We cannot "faith" something into being against God's will. This concept is clearly taught in Helaman 10 where Nephi is given "power". 4 Blessed art thou, Nephi, for those things which thou hast done; for I have beheld how thou hast with unwearyingness declared the word, which I have given unto thee, unto this people. And thou hast not feared them, and hast not sought thine own life, but hast sought my will, and to keep my commandments. 5 And now, because thou hast done this with such unwearyingness, behold, I will bless thee forever; and I will make thee mighty in word and in deed, in faith and in works; yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will. 6 Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God. Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels, that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness of this people. 7 Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people. 8 And thus, if ye shall say unto this temple it shall be rent in twain, it shall be done. 9 And if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou cast down and become smooth, it shall be done. 10 And behold, if ye shall say that God shall smite this people, it shall come to pass. (emphasis mine) The takeaway points: Nephi is given power because of obedience and because the Lord knows that Nephi will do nothing against His will. So I repeat the question again: Why haven't you moved mountains or walked on water? Maybe...just perhaps...it isn't the Lord's will that you do so. You see, to me, once more, your logic is failing. You're taking the evidence you see as proof of lack of faith instead of proof of God's will. And that does not follow. There is no reason to presume that righteous men (note, once more, that Nephi's power is granted him because of obedience) who aren't moving mountains don't have enough faith. There is, rather, according to the scriptural evidence given, a great deal of reason to presume that righteous men who aren't moving mountains aren't doing so because God does not will it to be. And going out and quitting our jobs on "faith" would be directly going against God's will who has proclaimed through His prophets that we are to gain an education, earn our ways, provide for our families, etc., and going against God's will is pretty much the surest way to fail in regards to faith. And that is wherein I find delusion. I believe that anyone, through faith and obedience, can accomplish the will of the Lord, including the moving of mountains. But I know it's delusional to think that we can move a mountain against God's will simply by believing hard enough.

The plan of salvation was established well before the foundation of the world. There was nothing newly decided in the middle. Moreover, Jesus didn't "decide". He did, and does, the will of the Father.

I know a whole lot of people who use this excuse to do a whole lot of things they're not supposed to, particularly in light of the Sabbath day. But "Family first" is not a gospel principle. "God first" is. Anyhow...giving the benefit of the doubt to Backroads and presuming we're not talking about Jet Skiing on Sunday... There's nothing wrong with getting a sub and I think little justification is required. Unless it were ongoing, I expect even just "I don't feel like it this week" would be fine. So I don't think the real question comes down to justifying getting a sub, per se, but rather justifying "going to the lake", whatever that means and entails.

Or even outright justification and defense of wrongdoing.

I think the implication of the scripture isn't forgive them for everything and give them exaltation, etc. It was forgive them for crucifying a God, which certainly has to be the greatest sin one could possibly commit in the know. They were culpable for what they were doing that they knew better. Had they any idea who Christ really was, they would have been culpable for that as well I think. But they knew not that they killed to Son of God.

When they bring polygamy back, then it'll really kick in. :) Seriously though. I've felt like, from a leadership standpoint, they are in a time of gathering, gathering, gathering, rather than separating the garbage (tares) out. This is, at least, partial explanation to my mind as to why the leadership has taken such a soft stand on certain issues. However, the point you bring up is interesting. I hadn't thought about it this way, but certainly, it has started to happen. That being said, I still think that there will come a time when the line will be drawn in the sand. The line must be drawn here! This far. No further. As much as I think, validly, that it has started, I do think there will come a time when it will be much more explicit. Only those with true and honest, sincere testimonies will stand. We won't be able to survive on borrowed light. I don't really think the return of polygamy will be the dividing line (though that would do it), but.......

Yeah...that sounds just like what the prophets and apostles have been advising us. You seem to be under the delusion that faith is magic. We could all live like wizards and witches if only we had enough faith! Harry Potter could be a reality!! But oh we of little faith.

You can't exactly use your priesthood if you're not authorized to do so, as priesthood usage is all about authority. His giving a blessing without being authorized to do so amounts to the same as someone not having the priesthood at all giving a blessing.

Not sure what there is to fear about it. Clearly it is the case (I refer you to the quote of mine in your signature) but puf's application doesn't strike me as in tune with what's been asked of us by God -- Which is to repent throughout or lives. We all fall short and all spiritually under achieve. That is why the Savior provided the atonement, which truly gives us no cause to fear. The true fruits of faith are repentance and obedience, not parting seas and moving mountains.

Hmm. Let's take a look and see what modern day scriptures have to say about ordinances and obedience to the law...now, this may take a bit or searching because it's pretty obscure but....wait....what?...you mean to tell me...... We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. Wow...imagine that! Right there in the Articles of Faith. But we don't really believe the things we say we believe...do we?

Apparently he's trying to convince everyone that ordinances are of little import in the scheme of salvation.