ElectofGod

Here is some scriptures on recognizing truth: Stupor of thought comes when you "current decision" is incorrect. So say I was asking if blessings are real. I feel ok about this, than my mind starts second guessing it and goes to its not real. I start ot feel really confused over the answer. This stuppor of thought means its false. If I switched back to the original statement, and its true, my soul and mind rests (at peace) than it is probably right. Though my mind still may be second guessing it my heart is at peace with the "thought of the mind at that moment". Hope that makes sense. Some bible references: Finally: Light of Christ versus the Holy Ghost Read this if you have more quesitons or want more scripture references: How do I recognize the Holy Spirit and Understand it? How do I pray with Faith?

I assume your question is, is the blessing real? If not correct me. I could tell you what I believe, but it will do nothing for you in convincing you one way or another. Lot of things can be put off as "supernatural", "made up", or "very real" when they are not. I have given a few blessings before. There have been a few times where I knew without a doubt what I was saying was given to me straight from heaven. (through the spirit). There is no way I would have been able to say things I have said. There have been other blessings where I felt guided in what I said but they were just comforting words for the person nothing out of the ordinary that could be taken as, "just a knowledgeable person". In this part of the quote: This is the test. Every man will walk this and determine for himself what the answer is. Notice its the spirit which guides us. It not easy to understand it or determine what is personal thought or the spirit. How we learn to recognize the spirit is by reading the scriptures, if we stop reading we lose our ability to recognize it thus fall away from God. So why the book of mormon? Because, its revealed word from the heavens. The purpose is to determine if its true. Most people already believe in the bible yet there are many religions based off it. Your asking about mormonism? Than read the book of mormon and see if Christ really did Call those prophets, really did appear in America to the nephite civiliation, If the book really does teach about Christ and bring you closer to him or its inspired from the devil and leads you away from him. This is what you should find out. If I would have you lean on my testimony to get yourself started I will testify I believe it to be true. I believe by the power of the holy ghost the book of mormon is true. To find out do exactly whats in that quote. Read the BOM, pray, and see where the spirit takes you. Isn't it beautiful? No convincing on our part , just you and the Lord. What part of you is sayings its true? Mind? Heart? Which part is sayings its not? Is it your mind trying to convince you its not? Which answer does you heart dwell on? Which answer does your heart and mind go to when you STOP feeling confused on if its true or not?

Surprising I almost agree with every statement in your response. The funny thing is you go and state how one of mine is incorrect than the very next few sentences you go and state the same thing You clarified many of the points I was getting at. Even if I didn't directly do so. Which is exactly what I was trying to say in this question.Moreover, your premise ignores the fact that Gospel truths are taught line-upon-line and precept-upon-precept. This is exactly what my premises are based off of. Eternal truths are revealed to us on two conditions: as we seek for them, and as we are ready/worthy of them. Perfectly said. The truth of the Gospel is one of ongoing growth and revelation. You either walk the covenant as Christ reveals it or you accept a lesser covenant and a lesser glory. Perfectly said. You don't get to dictate terms by deciding "What am I WILLING to receive?" before you even leave the starting gate. Exactly. You must be willing to leave the gate You either trust Christ and walk the path as he reveals it, or you wait back at the gate, wondering why there is no oil in your lamp. Exactly None of which is relevant. On the contrary, its the most important truths to learn. You can't walk a path you know nothing about. But you may just mean OVERLY focusing on it? Than I agree. Whether you receive these ordinances in this life or the next matters not- only your willingness to do so when the Lord asks it of you. What matters is walking the path before you to the best of your ability- of keeping your feet rather than tripping because you are so busily looking beyond the mark. I agree. I don't call learning about the path looking beyond the mark. I don't have time to find the quote. But the doctrines of our eternal salvation according to Joseph Smith are thee most important subject matter to study. I will agree that these men were foreordained to their tasks, but categorically reject the notion that they were predestined to fulfill it. I can agree with this. What I am saying if we are called to do something and don't fill it we are not improving our talents but hiding them in the earth. (putting off the kingdom of God) Each of them retained (and retains today) their agency. They all had the choice to either obey or walk away. Exactly. This is how it was in the pre-existence. In any case, the answer is simple: Had they failed to pick up the burden offered them, then another would have been appointed in their stead. The works of God are not thwarted by the weaknesses of men (as witnessed by the first 118 pages of Book of Mormon manuscript). Agree. But it does not change the fact THAT PERSON will come under condemnation for not multiplying their talents. 3 nephites, Call For References, please. "How great shall be your joy if you bring one soul unto me." Than there are scriptures that state your blessings with them will be even greater with many souls. These men will bring MANY. I don't believe I've heard this particular "truth" expounded by those with the authority to teach it. Many are called few are chosen. Maybe not everyone but at least many. Though don't we believe all are sons and all are called to return home to God? God has placed us here for a purpose. That is what I mean by Called. Called with a purpose. All of which renders your lengthy checklist of ordinances and gifts and all the needless worrying about C&E, the Second Comforter, and all the rest of it moot. We are either making the best time and effort on what we have been given or we are squandering the days of our probation. If you are in the former category, all the things on your list will come in due time. Not if people don't become aware of these things. The lord gives us blessings (were worthy of) when we ASK. Thus we should become aware. Not worry as you said just aware. Also there is another side to this too. If you are in the latter, you are ineligible anyway. Agree. As Latter-day Saints, we should be focused on making the most of the covenants and opportunities we are given, not obsessing over an idealized and arbitrary checklist or on "keeping up with the Joneses" in some vain tit-for-tat comparison of who has received what ordinations, offices, or callings. Agreed. There is no checklist, its "yield to the spirit in all things", "it will show unto you all things you must do"... THAN all things will fall into place.

The question was already answered but I will reiterate what has already been said one last time. Some of this IS personal opinion. So others won't be confused. Also, I do tend to look at some things differently so as Finrock showed my words can be READ differently by different people. To make it short I will just show one example for my purposes. Know there are many more. Many will be saved according to their desires and what they would receive if permitted to do so. Few posts back I stated: The questions is twofold: 1) What path am I ABLE to walk in this life or where am I ON that path? 2) What am I WILLING to receive? 1) Was it given to me in this life to be baptized? Receive Endowment? Receive Second Comforter? What if Nephi rejected to receive his personal witness of the savior in mortality would he have been saved? What if Peter James and john did not live a life to see Christ on the mount of olives? To be witnesses of His Resurrection? These men were CALLED to be such for their ministry. What if Enoch rejected translation? What were the blessings received of the 12 apostles in the book of mormon who saw Christ. What were the differences between the 3 who STAYED versus those 9 who went speedily to heaven? I will note the 3 gained a greater reward in heaven. The 9 still go to heaven but their reward is not the same. Everyone is CALLED for something in this life. I will relate a parable to answer the questions. Otherwards, we start on the path were we are AT and we start walking as far as we are ABLE to on that path. Thus improve our time. Also end with this quote from that talk. Talents could be many things, abilities, gifts of the spirit, ordinances of the gospel, covenants one must RECEIVE, covenants one must LIVE, etc...

Haha your out to prove me wrong. That is your only motive. But at least you addressed ONE issue you had. Ignorance is a LACK of knowledge of the truth. Right here in wiki's definition. I quoted SCRIPTURES about the fulness of the gospel. Yet you say I used them out of context. Oh please. The doctrine of Christ is the fulness of the gospel. The book of mormon is the fulness of the gospel. I rejected NOTHING you ASSUMED! Perhaps you purposely trying to find fault in my statements you are disregarding what the truth is. The premise is this: (JAG's question) Do you have to receive your C&E in this life... As you define this life in mortality... I responded My quotes about his question were regarding do you have to receive your C&E BEFORE you get into heaven. YES. You have to be sealed by the holy spirit of promise. To deny this you are outright DENYING SCRIPTURE. That can happen NOW (this life) or the SPIRIT world (continuation of THIS LIFE, eternity). I stated that in MY ORIGINAL post...

You did not answer ONE of my questions. You condemn me yet have NO insight for what your condemning me for. I assume you are referring to this question? I did answer it in response to byots post. I AGREED with his post. His post was about us not rejecting the fulness just because we have not received the blessings yet. As long as we are on the path yielding to the spirit, everything will work out. To state anyone who does not have their C&E in this life would face God's punishment would be foolishness. The path is so individualized for everyone to state it has to be one way would be putting restrictions on God. The path is the same, the savior showed us that path, however; our point on that path is different. To state someone has to be on a particular place on that path else face God's punishment when we were all born in a different place (standing, due to 1st estate obedience) on the path would bring condemnation upon myself for unrighteous judgments. Its like you both are trying to get me to contradict myself. All these blessings are given to those who walk the path, but nobody will finish that path in this life. Its up to us to start walking that path NOW. Spiritual ordinaces/ Physcial Ordiances Baptism by Water Gift of the Holy Ghost Baptism by Fire Prophecy Visions Dreams Ministry of Angels Justification, Sanctifcation, Purifcation Initiatories Anointings Endowment 2nd anointing Calling and Election Second Comforter Washing of the feet Ressurection of the dead Plus all those that have not been revealed or I skipped over. After all we learn all children will make it to heaven under the age of 8. I'll quote myself:

I have tried to courtesous in my posts. But this is ridiculous. I have asked YOU what you think they mean. But no whwere have I seen anyone interpret it. In the other post I added lots of comments, here I decided to leave them OUT for that very purpose. I can''t even post authoritative quotes without being chastised seriously? Even LDS hates the word repentance. It has become very apparent.

This however I am certain: We will NOT receive the blessings of Abram (Abraham), Saul (Paul), Adam (Michael), and all the other men UNTIL we DO what they have DONE.

You can think what you want. I didn't add comments due to wanting people to come to their own conclusions. I never heard of those theologians why bring them up? It certainly does. Thats because you don't receive your C&E UNTIL you have endured to the end. Thats because the END is where one receives eternal life. 2 nehpi 33:4 Otherwards the end of the day of probation Once you have reached the end of your probation you receive your C&E (if qualified for it). C&E also can be to have the day of probation (day of judgment) advanced in this life to receive the promise of eternal life (McConkie, paraphrase). I can quote all the scriptures in the world if you interpret them differently it won't matter. So I will just quote some and leave you to decide what YOU believe. I am not here to convince anyone is wrong when the things I know are so uncertain with myself. But now you ask... I will quote scripture but if you interpret it differently so be-it. It up to each of us to decide what the truth is. Ignorance is a knowledge of truth, which truth he could NOT share because of ignorance. The truth we must each gain at sometime on our path into the eternities. Until one has proven he cares not for the body he will not have eternal life. Once proven he will. That point is different for everyone. I have no clue when it will happen for each of us. Terrestial: Celestial Its quite clear (to me) in that last quote by McConkie, that salvation only comes from revelation. That revelation is to gain the testimony of Jesus, a true minister, is one who has SEEN heaven and hell. Joseph says its in VAIN to minister without it. If you think it means something else than take what you want from it. I don't care how you interpret it, but DONT put my opinions wiht a man who I never read until the last few months. I believed THESE THINGS AS A MISSIONARY (most of it) before I ever read an LDS book besides the book of mormon. I could tie in tons of more but whats the point? This is not the subject of the thread.

I agree with you here. His spirit has many symbolism and levels in the scriptures. Haight gives a very specific one in The Sacrament talk. Either way I HAVE NOT entered into the Everlasting Covenant yet. JUNE 14! :)... There is only one way to ALWAYS have it though, its to keep his commandments. All blessings follow those who do this. Its context, rejecting it versus just not receiving the blessings yet are two different things. One could not have all the blessings yet and have NOT rejected it.

If you got that from those quotes taht are ACCEPTED by LDS than why bring in someone who I SAID NOTHING ABOUT? Its like you won't believe ANYthing some man has stated and will reject anything "LDS" authorities have on the matter if it even RELATES to that man has said. I would love to hear what you think the fulness is? I didn't even tell you. To say I have rejected it means nothing in this ballpark. Here is what I was referring too (one of two scriptures, I won't quote the other) Again: With underlining. Maybe you will accept BYU. 20. The Doctrine of Christ: 2 Nephi 31–32 | Religious Studies Center Now I quote the same scriptures verbatim starting at verse 19 in 2 nephi chapter 31. Continuing in chapter 32 he simplifies it for us: Simple, receive the Holy Ghost so that we have it with us ALWAYS. Is the admonition in the sacrament prayer. I have rejected that notion thus causing the holy ghost to not be with me as often as it could be. I have yet to submit willingly to all things the lord seest fit upon me (Mosiah 3). I have yet to fear man, and not seek my own life. All these are signs of one who HAS NOT been fully converted. (alma 5) A foolish virgin indeed. So have I rejected the fulness? Yes. Because I am a slothful servant that intends to good but never gets around to doing it. I am learning to overcome this with he Lord's help. But until I DO it doesn't matter what I know. As superficial knowledge means nothing without EXPERIENCE which brings REAL knowledge. I got some free time I will keep quoting .... Didn't have time to quote a Ensign article or conference talk. I didn't say what the fulness is, still have not only given resources to find it. Enjoy!

Definitely future??? (98%), because he says in vs 11 the fulness will go back to the jews at some point. We know that happens towards the end just before he comes in Glory. Maybe NJ will be built about the same time he comes to Mt Olives? Not sure on the timeline. Dozens of views on this. Also It seems AFTER the gentiles reject it, for a time they will be chastened than he gives this "chiasmus"... Saying, they have another chance to repent. Also goes on if they do not. That link has some good quotes on the subject. Just_A_Guy, I'll let you decide... Anyone who does not accept the fulness , both LDS and non LDS alike. I have rejected it myself as I have not received the blessings of it yet. But I am working on it slowly The question is What is the fulness ? How is it rejected? Doctrine of Christ: 2 nephi 31; 32:1-7

Here are other quotes on this topic. LDSLastDays.com Both modern day prophets and scripture references. So since the time of Joseph Smith we have rejected the fulness, "for four generations" to remember the covenant with the fathers than it will be taken away.

***Disclaimer, This is a new thought to me, Its my opinion, and I have changed my opinions MANY times!*****Hack it to death if you feel like it. Just do so courteously . I am in the pondering stages before I ASK. Here are some thoughts to add regarding the final dispensations. If you read in Alma 13, "if it be soon that he will come in his glory we do not know" but perhaps in their lifetime, they thought it was soon back than! If I interpret it right? I posted this on another thread: 22 January 1843 (Sunday). At Temple. Wilford Woodruff Journal: joseph Smith lecture He states the kingdom of God has been here since the beginning. This is the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times of the Gentiles. A cleansing will destroy the majority of all people in America, even latterday saints. Than The kingdom of Zion will be built, from the faithful of the latterday saints and anyone else the Lord has already called to do so. BUT, "it will be given back to the remnant" for the lamanite remnant will bulid the New Jerusalem. Most Gentiles will not but stay in their cities and build up there. The LDS church will be non-existent (but authority still present) at this point but the few faithful saints WILL be a part of it! This is when the final Gathering takes place, the lost 10 tribes are gathered in from the north, the heathen nations receive the gospel, AFTER NJ is built. Part two of the marvelous work and wonder. This will be a MUCH greater WONDER. For the entire world will know of Zion and its beauty, "it will be terrible to the wicked". You see that the final gathering and building of of the Lord's kingdom takes place AFTER Zion (NJ). (Not surprisingly so, it will be a wonderful place) This could be called the Dispensation of the gathering from the four quarters of the earth and the building up of Zion. I think this is what the other person kept referring to.

Reminds of words of Joseph Smith. This is probably not a direct quote just my understanding of things he has said. The prophet had some extreme trials in his life and the one way we can have "hope as an anchor to the soul" is by having that assurance that we will not fall. Otherwards, "the more sure word of prophecy" and the "calling and election" where one will not fall. I got the impression when Joseph spoke about the Second Comforter he was saying, there are some trials that one must have this comforter to get through. It was what got him through his most trying times. How else could one go into martydom "as calm as" ?? the day, not sure his exact words. Traveler, Depends on the day. I am a fairly happy person. But the world is quite depressing these days.

That answered my question. Still is it in the D&C to do this? Don't care for the reference just wondering if its in there? Never thought of it as a covenant in that way before. Also makes sense about the voice of the people. It was actually 138 that sparked this question in my mind so thanks for that reference to it.

I read this scripture last night. To add to what you said. Happiness comes from glory (in a way) which comes from serving others. What a great man. I would have been discouraged and depressed myself probably.

Where does the law of consent come from for doctrine? Why must it be voted in as doctrine? What if the church voted in false doctrine? Because the Lord states, he gives us what WE want. Even if its contrary to what HE wants. Things are adapted to the weakest of the saints and those that harden their hearts get taken away even that which they have. President Joseph F. Smith: "[T]he theories, speculations, and opinions of men, however intelligent, ingenious, and plausible, are not necessarily doctrines of the Church or principles that God has commanded His servants to preach. No doctrine is a doctrine of this Church until it has been accepted as such by the Church, and not even a revelation from God should be taught to his people until it has first been approved by the presiding authority–the one through whom the Lord makes known His will for the guidance of the saints as a religious body. The spirit of revelation may rest upon any one, and teach him or her many things for personal comfort and instruction. But these are not doctrines of the Church, and, however true, they must not be inculcated until proper permission is given.” I thought it was doctrine when just revealed by the president?

Finrock, while it may be true, my posts did come off as attacking something that is good. He is correct I was in frustrations making a few mistaken statements that were totally unneeded. Our views may be different in some areas but so is every persons. BTW, your posts are always so postive, I hope you have a good day too.

Well, after that response I am just going to laugh at myself. I actually understand how you are understanding me and how I am sounding. (I think) My terms were used incorrectly also (doctrine / truth).

It looks like my intent, and my written statements came off completely opposite than I understood them to mean. That is entirely my fault. I apologize. I knew I should of kept my mouth shut but I really needed to rant on frustrations of a few. I never referred to what my argument was I just wrote about the incident without ever explaining WHAT IT WAS. Again entirely my fault That's rubbish, and heresy. God's House is a House of Order- and we will never be "independent" of it. There is not a single authoritative statement to be found supporting your claims. We will be sons and daughters, priests and priestesses, kings and queens of the Most High God forever. I did STATE THIS. I said we would be under Christ. We will never be independent of God- we become his heirs, not his peers (or rivals). Agreed. The scriptures and quotes you cited above do not claim what you pretend they do, and so you must twist them to fit your personal interpretation. Maybe the problem is you think I am trying to claim something I wasn't (intend to). Given that you: 1) encourage us to embrace non-authoritative sources of doctrine, Like what? Did no such thing 2) insist that accepting revelation from the authoritative source is tantamount to stunting spiritual growth, Nope. Though, accepting all the revelation will do nothing for us if we don't get our own. THAT is McConkies words. Religion is EXPERIENCE 3) are preaching a false doctrine, and Wouldn't be the first time. Nor would it be the first time an apostle or prophet has done so. 4) are attacking the Saints for embracing the words of a Prophet of God, Nope. and I quote Joseph Smith AGAIN "your dependence on the prophet has caused you minds to be darkened"... Why did he say that? He Called the church corrupt. If I do so you condemn me? Now go read Section 84 about why Moses's people were rejected. They depended on Moses! They did not go straight to God for revelation. (talk face to face with him) That just means what I quoted by McConkie. "accepting all the revelation will do nothing for us if we don't get our own." (paraphrased) ... how then can we take you as anything other than a counterfeit and false prophet? Say what you want. I look to Christ. That is my whole point here. We don't wait for a prophet to reveal things to us. 6/12 of Joseph Smith's apostles fell away. We go experience it ourselves and receive our own revelations through Christ himself. If we just wait for them to reveal things than what will we get? Nothing, because nobody would ever come unto Christ because they are being commanded in all things. Though you did prove my point again. IF two people have different interpretations on a quote one is called apostate. Christ's own disciples had disputations about doctrine. They went to each other for the answer NOT CHRIST. Yet he was RIGHT THERE! I am going to delete my posts now that my frustratio is settled. It seems it came off wrong. I do not wish to lead anyone astray for teaching things that are true, but written incorrectly. I ask for forgiveness for all ill. This statement sums up my thoughts... I have a feeling that our problem is not lack of belief but instead just plain old unbelief. If we haven't read it in the scriptures or a GA hasn't said it, it doesn't exist to many of us. Why?

Thanks Matthew. Some may recognize such a statement as below as coming from satan. 22 January 1843 (Sunday). At Temple. Wilford Woodruff Journal: Joseph Smith lecture (shortened) We ARE to receive the oracles of God for ourself.

Wow where to start lol... Thanks for the post. I am only going to address parts of it than quote from Joseph Smith. I don't wish to talk past you here as I do in many instances. Make this clear before I begin... I hope I didn't come off as apostate. I sustain the 15 as prophet seers and revelators. Nor do I even try to claim I have their keys. That is absolutely apostate. Anyone can receive keys in their sphere but that is the end thereof for those keys. Ok here is a list of quotes: You asked for references on something. I won't post them as it would take a page. If you still want me to I will start a page on Adam-God theory. Prefer not to in this public setting. Though I could send you quotes privately. Mormon Doctrine: (Taken from wikipedia, see real sources if you dont trust it) Don't get me wrong, I used this as an example not to condemn anyone. To think anyone is perfect is insanity. McConkie is one of my favorite writers who understood the importance of Personal Revelation. He was a VERY inspired man. An Independent People is what Zion is. One that does not require a head over them. (Besides Christ but he is there to lead us to God) Doesn't it really take a prophet to declare these things? Ironic? Prophet wanted the people to STOP relying on him for Doctrine, for answers, for dependence. His job was to restore the church. Consequently prepare us to receive personal revelation and get answers ourself. Their dependence, darkened their minds (lack of knowledge and experience of their duties). Joseph further stated the importance of personal revelation. The comments are McConkies in his talk I referenced in my prior post, How To Get Personal Revelation. The book of mormon is the path we must walk ourselves. They have set the path of seeing and doing like we should do ourselves. My main point here: Telestial Requirements: People who accepted "a prophet" but never accepted anything greater than them. Thus they were of moses. They were of Esaias. They were of Joseph Smith etc... Many religions are like this today. They reject Revelation. I have said enough I will end with this final quote: Do people not get this? That if you are not worthy to receive it YOURSELF how do you expect to get it from church? Do people think they can just wait for the sealed portion of the ether places to be revealed when it strictly says IT WILL BE REVEALED TO YOU if you are WORTHY of it. Ether 4:1-4. What is in the sealed portion?

Ah yes! I posted it not knowing it!.... I read it in His book, In times of Trouble, Jeffrey R Holland. Looks like it was taken from that talk too. (at least parts of it as I haven't compared the two)

I feel sorry for those who lose their testimonies over these issues (like the man in this thread)