ElectofGod

How does one know he is on the path? How does one know what he is doing is enough to get to the tree of life? Is noticing that you are being guided by the spirit enough? Are there other "signs" that follow those that believe along the path after baptism by fire (change of heart) but before one receives the greater blessings of the "more sure word of prophecy"? Or does one just carry on hoping for the "best"?

andennex, love it :) Very intriguing scripture.

Thanks for those posts much deeper answers than I expected. I was asking myself many of those questions sadly I couldn't answer some the way I should. Could I sacrifice the way others have? I really don't know if I could. I don't like pain ... I would like to say yes but I really don't know. Also I don't see in my life some of the signs that follow. I have seen some but there are things I know I have not received yet that are dependent upon ones faith. skal, That was a great post. I just read that verse in Nephi the other day. I liked how you applied it. I just came across this. That was the point of them going to the promised land to receive the greater blessings.

So I came across this quote below and it stood out to me. How many of you are confident in your ability to recognize the spirit? To be able to follow it? To be able to do all things it asks us to do? I know I am continually guided but sometimes I wonder my level of obedience and faith when I am not experiencing some major events that follow those who believe. The Events of Testimony lead to the Events of Conversion Alma 12:10,11 10 “And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full. 11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.” Its interesting to see how we can judge how much we are on the "fence". Are we gaining new truth and knowledge daily? Is our understanding increasing? Are we satisfied with the current state of the world? Are we satisfied with the level of sin? Are we satisfied with only obeying what we are commanded to do and not be guided by the spirit to do that which we are not (Alma 32 and the seed)? Do the signs that follow those who believe occur in our own lives? Are we satisfied with only living the law of tithing? Have we increased our desire to sacrifice all things? Could we do it? Even if we must be tortured (Christ), burned (Abinadi), or sawed in half by a dull sword (Isaiah), etc... Do you know your current standing before the Lord? Is he pleased with your current progress in life? Is he pleased with your current standing before him and devotion to him? Do I know where I am at in the Journey back to heavenly father and how to get to the next step? These are questions I am constantly asking myself. Are you seeing the signs that follow those that believe in your life? What about for those around you? Thoughts?

You brought up two things here as underlined. It makes sense yes. ..............................First underline There are two reasons for experiencing this dislike for everyone around you. One you are starting to focus on all the negative aspects because satan wants to distract you and have you or Two you are progressing towards the savior and to the point he is starting to point out the flaws in others. I think its a mix of both from what you described but could be wrong. I find that the closer you get the more imperfect you see yourself and others around you. Thats a quote by Lorenzo snow, The nearer to God you get the more imperfect you see yourself. than you rely upon the atonement. I will share an example of when I prayed for charity. The following things happened. First) The lord started to show me the imperfections in everything aorund me (society). I saw their flaws what they did wrong. All the noisy children, all the problems with everything around me. This is the biggest obstacle to get over. Second) The lord than shown me how I was not there for the right reasons entirely. I was focused on others. I was focused on what I was doing right they were not. Than I realized that I should just try to have a good attitude. This didn't help myself tons but I tried very hard to not restrict the spirit from all the ill feelings I was having. I know others who had these feelings that fell away also. Third) After awhile I was shown the imperfections closer to me. Family, friends, acquaintances. Again this caused another wedge for me. But I didn't entirely realize what was happening. I thought does anyone do anything right? Why can't they just be like me or like the savior and do it right. My ill towards others changed over time but I still feel like people do not do what they should. Fourth) I than gradually started to realize all the things I did wrong. It dug me into a depression literally. I thought I was useless and did nothing right. It took someone else who went through the same thing to point out what the Lord was doing for me. It dawned on me "Now you see how everything around you is imperfect, now you see how you are imperfect, now you see why you should love your fellow men" It smacked me, at the time it was just a thought I realized the smacking didn't come until weeks of pondering on it and realized that is what the Lord was showing me. Now I see it and how its true I consider it a smacking. I am sitll working on having love for others and realizing these imperfects I see, which took me a year to get rid of the ill feelings as you described, is the test for us to love for our fellow men. We are to see them with the atonement applied. I still want to scream at them and say don't be hypocrites but I just feel now its not a big deal at all. It was at first but I finally overcame it. Now I still want them to do whats right but I love them to the point I want to find ways to help them myself and don't worry about them being perfect because nobody will in this life. The ill feelings will go away but your desire for them to be better will not. Its also satan wanting to put a wedge and get you to stop partaking in the sacrament. Be there to help them grow instead of helping yourself as you do so it will change your "ill" towards others. Its by no means easy. Only prayer will do it. Also I have found everyone has their own wekanesses just because in one area they are hyprocrites doesn't mean they are not more righteous than you. You can't judge someone by their apperance because you don't know what or why they are doing what they do. We are all hyprocirties in some ways. Its the righteous who acknowledge that they are sinners and try to correct it. Its the prideful that think there is nothing wrong. ........................Second Underline Most people never experience the burning in the bosom. The spirit is like learning a new language. Pray and ask God how he speaks to you. Try it... I also find most often my answers are soooooo subtle that its nearly impossible to tell they are even an answer. I find it to be an answer only when its the same subject I was just asking about and my thoughts are again thinking about my question after hearing a talk from someone else, a lesson, or reading the scriptures and the same principle is being discussed. If my mind connects the two I consider it an answer than go pray to see if there is something else I missed. Occasionally the spirit will speak out in a voice to me but I can count those on my finger. Long post so I will stop here for now.

You are not alone. My thought the first few years during it was "I can see why others call us a cult especially due to the temple, like ex-mormons who have been through it"... I can see it. Its bizarre at first. Some love it the ones who don't you just don't hear about because they keep their mouth shut (or go here :) ) so they don't get shunned by the others. First its way weird but than you study it and study it and go and go and go you realize wow this is the most amazing normal thing (ok not quite normal) there is in the church. There is so much to learn and it teaches powerful truths. My advice is to read a temple book about it. Also now that you have been through go through a bunch of more times until you start to memorize it. After that the greatest understanding will be opened. I have a few references I can post later. I understood nothing. I have studied it hours and hours everyday for the past few years and understand a lot now but still don't understand that much . Its all symbolic. Sure there are literal parts just like the scriptures have literal parts but the true meaning comes out when you learn the symbolism behind everything. than you will start to say, "ok this might be a weird way to do it, but it makes sense now". Its ok to ask questions about it feel free to do so. Just don't reveal anything in a public setting like this too sacred and don't reveal the sign, tokens and name, etc.... Keep it generic.

Ok I read most of it now. Finrock you have some wonderful posts that I almost completely agree with. I have learned for myself they also do have authority and keys. Not the same ones as men in this temporal world but they do exist (maybe). One example of authority is from my quotes above in a previous comment and your comment shows them exercising authority and keys in the relief society. Sure you could say its delegated through the bishop but if you apply it that way than ALL men are delegating through that same lineage and would say no one has those keys or authority except through delegation. (which is partially true) We must all connect ourselves with God to gain that power and fulness of priesthood for ourselves. Both male and female. The authority comes from one in authority and Keys come from one having the keys. Thus it can bestowed upon anyone who has the right to exercise it in their responsibilities both male and female. There are prophetesses after all And Queens and priestesses. They are just not "visible" temporal callings like in General Conference though in the early days didn't they contribute? (I don't know I just thought I heard they did or at least were there) Its the same with the scriptures they are not "visible" but doesn't mean they do not exist in some way or form. Women are rarely talked about in the scriptures. Together one can have the fulness of heaven and eternal joy. Just like the soul cannot have a fulness of joy without the body inseparable connected, the male without the female cannot. And vice versa. This is the great question I think though. Is it through or is it on their own? Are they exercising through their husbands or through their own authority and power? Depending who you ask will give you a different answer.

I haven't read most the responses but here are some things to ponder. I wouldn't teach it to an investigator entirely because these things are not even taught in the church currently (actively like general conference). In a meeting of the Relief Society on April 28, 1842, Joseph Smith discussed women anointing and healing. Eliza R. Snow reported the minutes and wrote the following: Heber C. Kimball: Brigham Young: In a message from the First Presidency to stake presidents and bishops, President Joseph F. Smith, together with Anthon H. Lund and Charles W. Penrose, issued a statement answering a list of questions regarding women anointing and ministering to the sick. Some excerpts: From Wilford Woodruff's Journal (4:244). Occasion: Wilford Woodruff's namesake son, just ordained a priest, was about to begin his duties.

With this current economy? 2007 was just a warning, its going to crash again soon. How soon I don't know. But soon. It will be gone when it does. I cashed out my measly 5k in my 401k and took the penalty to pay off college debt. Best decision. I would take it all out if I could but still work at my current job. I don't trust this market. But if you are already out of debt than I stay out of debt and don't do anything to put yourself in debt including borrowing from a 401k. Whatever you decide to do. Go pray about if you should move than go from there is my say. If you should move don't get in debt if at all possible. Make sure you have your emergency supplies, etc...

This is what Denver stated over and over again. Soo many more quotes explaining what it is. I really like this site. I wonder if its anti or not. I think it has accurate quotes.

Ok who is BH Roberts? Is he trust worthy? I just ran into this site. I swear Denver took half his quotes from this site. It seems like direct quotes here on half the things I posted. He isn't the one who was ex'ed was he? There are some really good information here. Patriarchal Priesthood

Yes. It does appear so. I even get a little confused on his context. He does name the highest order of the MP the Patriarchal priesthood though he does state they are the same. He uses it just for naming purposes. I actually find there are some truths openly taught in the break off branches of the LDS church that are not public in our church since the early days. Of course there is much twisting of the truth too but if someone is comfortable enough in the spirit showing truth some major profound thoughts can be opened up. D&C says that about the apocrypha as well. That is why the Lord told Joseph not to translate them, "let them who have the spirit hear" (paraphrase). It is really quite amazing to think of how much truth we don't have. How many orders are greater than the CK? Infinite? Probably. I wonder if there are greater orders of prietshood or if the power reaches a point where you have it all? Or is power increased with dominion? Do they go hand in hand? In a spiritual order (Gods without number, one higher than the next) not a "elemental" (earth) order.

Interesting. Patriarchal Order of the Priesthood - The Encyclopedia of Mormonism The nauvoo was the one never completed right?

Is this why the early apostles (Parley Pratt?) stated that their ordinations were not complete until they were conferred from the Lord himself? (paraphrase) Maybe he said something about parting the veil. I don't remember the exact quote.

Patriarchal Priesthood highlights. Here is where it gets confusing again. Here is a summary from another blogger on what Denver wrote. This blogger wrote it up sort of fast so it may contain errors in his thought. I am interested to find the quote about the patriarchal priesthood at nauvoo temple. I had read it as a missionary but don't remember it. I will try to find sources not from Denver.

Yes I am interested in this too. I will see what I can find. Here is why the confusion in the past few, (20 ish lol) pages. The entire book of PTHG he is focusing on this 3rd priesthood. Not the two we are commonly used to in the church. This must be where the confusion comes in. I will post as I run across stuff on it.

Interesting. I just tried to last year they wouldn't let me. They said they didn't do it anymore. But I have not been married in the temple before so maybe that's why (which they knew when I asked).

I just read this. For those who keep stating denver says we don't have the priesthood or whatever nonesence. Again you have not read all his books. This talks about the priesthood and what the church contains. Its pretty clear what Denver is talking about here.

, it does make no sense. I mean to say there could be two reasons for the statement. 1) She thinks the guy is only in the relationship to get some action. 2) She thinks "if you care for each other you don't sin with heavy petting" which is partially false. Whether someone is sinning together has nothing to do with how you care about each other. It has to do with self control and their desire for sexual activity (more so for Guys). People who care for each other could be very obedient or very disobedient. But if you care for each other you will also try to find a way to work at it even if you keep failing to be worthy of each other if they also have a strong belief in the gospel.

According to society these days this is young.... But either way it seems as sarah said. You stupor of thought seems to be your answer. What answer do you keep going to that gives you a stupor of thought? Have you tried saying "I will do the other thing" than see if the stupor of thought goes away? (Even if its not what you want)... If you can finally relax with that decision its probably the right one. Make one decision, ask the lord and if you have the stupor of thought its the other one. Than say ok I will do the other one, re-ask and see if you still have a stupor of thought. For me usually it goes away when I am thinking about the right decision.

Fair enough. Its all how people take those scriptures. Context is everything. There have been plenty of LDS scholars that have shown what we believe is in the bible too using only those scriptures. It comes down to how people "apply" what they read. Even having the book of mormon and doctrine and concvenants we can still apply it to a certain way if we desire. This is why we have the holy ghost to reveal the truth of all things to each of us. Along with "revelations" from the Lord (like D&C) that clear it up. Also prophets. The body is called "element" it is things created to be acted upon (according to one view). The spirit are things to act. Random Quotes: Joseph Smith preached the following. Here is an interesting read with the quotes above: Joseph Smith’s Revelations on Preexistence and Spirits | The Pierian Spring

Yes. I know what the traditional Christian take is. Which is why I am glad for the doctrine and covenants that corrects the mis-information out there. Traditional Christians also stick to the Bible books and never look at any of the "banned books of the bible", "dead sea scrolls", "Apocrypha", which have many further teachings not contained in the bible. And why? Because the Nicene creed voted on some "books" they wanted. a spirit hath not flesh and bones (Luke 24:39) Exactly, A Body has flesh and bones. The spirit does not. Sums it up nicely. Also "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". Shows a disconnect between the two. What are you exactly looking for? Just like thinking about this stuff or trying to find a flaw/correctness in the reasoning behind it?

You situation is a little more severe than mine was (from what you wrote). I remember when I wrote on a comments board, everyone was like that seems like a red flag(because the way I wrote it, I would agree now) but I ended up getting married and best decision of my life. Thats a very false statement. Its because you care for her you do those things (depending if its a sincere relationship or purely lustful one which may be how she is looking at it). However, its also true if you care for each other you will do all you can to be worthy and wait till marriage. I struggled with heavy petting while dating for over a year. It wasn't until we were engaged we had motivation to stop. Because we had something to look forward to (a light in the tunnel to release our emotions). We did date 2 years though almost as I wanted to make sure my emotions and our relationship was in the right place (get over the "love" stage of something new). Talk to her. Be open about it. Get her to realize you are not using her "for lustful things" but you care. How to do that is a difficult question to answer . Remember how she deals with her problems now will be the same for marriage. So make sure you guys can have an open relationship even if you do get at each others nerves, or problems occur (which are normal).

As for knowing about our spirits. That is partially necessary for our salvation because it allows us to know what and who we worship. Also helps us know what and who we are that makes life so important. We may not know the how it works but the Why is important. Like said, there are dozens of papers, lectures by prophets, etc on this subject that someone can direct you to. There are three elements we know of. Body Spirit Intelligence (Entity called by some in the sciences)

I know nothing about theism. just commenting on this other topic brought up. God knows before hand what we will do. He has a set plan for each of us. He knew how each of us would fail. BUT there is a law in heaven whereby all may learn to grow and increase. This plan involves what he set us to do. We than used our agency and altered that plan for ourselves. He knew beforehand what and how it would change. But had to set up the learning enviroment perfectly due to the law even knowing it would change. thus our life will be created to learn what he setup for us AND learn what he already knew we would fail in so that we can "repent" of those things and never do them again. Now while I believe that. There is an possibility our agency caused problems in God plan (if you believe he doesn't know the outcomes we will make than this is very likely). Thus many worlds could have come and go thus having to be entirely remade because it failed its intended purpose. What if Christ sined once and decided to become peridtion? Well everything would be void and God would start over in some way or form. What if NO people ever are worthy or obedient enough to build up zion? Some people think this about the dinosaurs era. These are the questions that come up when God doesn't know the outcomes. If you say he doesn't know what decisions we will make only an infinite set of them than how would he create a plan where he knows the end of the worlds outcome? He could try to use angels to fix outcomes but what if the people still decide to disobey? Maybe each "dispensation" he keeps sending more and more righteous people enough it "just" works out? I really think God knows what will be or how would we even be able to prophecy in his name? Of course there are some that failed to due disobedience. But the laws of heaven are there and ALL things are based off them. Everything revolves around those laws. Our outcomes will determine how those laws will affect us now and the next life. This life was affected by our past life.