ElectofGod

The entire 4th chapter of Nephi is a type of Zion. It begins with what a Zion people had, how they progressed into Zion, and how Zion fell as it will again at the end of the millenium when the "final" war is opened up. Hugh nibley has an amazing article about the book of Enoch (zion people), I think its on lds.org, go search for it. Its like a large multiple part series. Maybe it was on byu or maxwell insitutute. Don't remember. I can find it if interested. (try googling)

:animatedthumbsup: I read an interesting storoy the other day. "if you have done it unto the least of these you have done it unto me"... There is a story of Jesus in Luke? on the road to Emmaus, the savior journeys with some of his disciples and they do not recognize him. He talks with them, asks them questions, he takes them where they are currently at and teaches them. They attended the Lord unaware. While it may not always be angels, or as the other story shows, it could literally be the savior himself who can withhold his appearance, we should see everyone as Christ. (literally and symbolically)

The free lunch looms large in the Sermon on the Mount. First the Lord's Prayer: "Give us this day our daily bread" (Matthew 6:11); this comes with the understanding, expressed in the same sentence, that in return we are to show the same free and liberal spirit towards each other that he does to all of us: "And forgive our debts as we forgive our debtors." Next comes fasting, a most effective reminder of God's generosity to us and also of our complete dependence on him, a thing to be joyfully acknowledged (Matthew 6:16–18). Then an all–important principle; you cannot have it both ways, you cannot work for both employers, you cannot lay up treasures both on earth and in heaven–you cannot divide your heart between them; for to one master or the other you must give your whole and undivided devotion–both employers demand that, but only one of them can have it (Matthew 6:19–20). You must go one way or the other, there can be no compromise (Matthew 6:22–23). "No man can serve two masters": love and hate cannot be divided up between them, "ye cannot serve God and Mammon," mammon being to this day the regular Hebrew word for business, particularly money and banking (Matthew 6:24). You must not yield to the enticings of that other master, nor let his threat of "no lunch if you leave my employ" intimidate you–you must ignore him and his arguments completely: "Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet ... what ye shall put on" (Matthew 6:25). All such things are taken care of for God's creatures: "Behold the fowls of the air, ... your heavenly Father feeds them. Are ye not much better than they?" (Matthew 6:26). It was the practice in Sodom and Gomorrah, we are told, to rob all strangers of their money and then let them starve to death because they could not buy food; and the cities' inhabitants would put nets over their trees so that the birds would have no free lunch on their fruit. For Abraham, such meanness, as we have seen, was the last straw, and "he cursed them in the name of his God." Here is an interesting perspective.

Loudmouth, I do not disagree with your assessment. I think the Lord will not have the second pile come against us IF we did it, a) for the right reasons, b) and thought it WAS the will of god at that moment. Maybe even just for a), but I do agree we can be giving to problems instead of "succoring" which is not good either. I liked your list. That is the BETTER way for most cases. Talk to them, if its a bill they need pay, pay it, if its food, give it, etc... Here is some more scirptures or quotes I read that stood out to me recently about the OP I do think we should be liberal to all no matter who they are, maybe not money in all cases, but food, clothes, etc... skal, I agree thus why I am trying to recognize the things that MAKE us wicked as there are many. Traveler, excellent.

I will point out, Loudmouth has shown, how many different views there are about how the end will come about. His view is very different than mine in some ways. I have come to the conclusion that its one of those things we will only really know when it happens. SO MANY views exists. I don't know how it will happen. However, I will state my view that I think is most likely in my mind (I have many lol ). I don't believe there will be a callout, I believe the ten virgin parable of the 5 wise and 5 foolish will be fulfilled by not having a callout. Those 10 "will be left with the ilght within themselves" to gather to safety following the spirit as Lehi did through the wilderness. OR angels will guide them (or both) so this is why the 5 wise were able to get into the event. The slothful servants (inside and outside the church) will be killed off due to NO food storage (the year of famine). Its our noah's ark in our day. Go read 4th Nephi. Its a ZION society. In this case Zion (consecration) was brought about AFTER the calamities and appearance of Christ. But in the New Testament, Christ tells us, as it was in the days of noah, it will be in the coming of the Son of Man. What was around during that time? A SMALL FEW who had their noah's arks (Benson, Brigham Young... have all stated its our FOOD STORAGE along with spiritual preparedness of course) and the city of Enoch who sanctified themselves (translation) BEFORE the flood came. They progressed into the law of consecration. Its all within our reach to learn its principles and begin to apply them now. The biggest TRAIT of the law of Conecration, is to FOLLOW the SPIRIT in ALL things. By so doing so, we can LIVE it NOW. Its very different than the law of sacrifice (which includes your own life). We are NOT living it now. Not even close. We are under covenant to do so (willing heart) but we are not even close to doing so nor are the people capable yet (as a society). Its not lived in an instant but rather line upon line. The calamites, trials, tests, carthage jails, martydom, of the soon to be future (worse than the pioneers had, -McConkie) will all weed out those who won't be able to endure and progress into a Zion community (tares). The united order has similarities but it will not be a Zion community. Go read about what Zion is and how it functions to understand this. There are lots of material. The only place we can have a Zion place is our OWN family (homes). We can do all we can to make it a holy place. Thats not to say all those who die are wicked, many righteous will die for Chris'ts sake, "he that findeth his life shall lose it, he that loseth his life shall find it". They will be saved in Christ. Zion: "all things are common among them", "pure in heart", "sanctified",...

It depends on the ward or branch and the spirituality of the members. I was in a branch wehre the entire testimony meeting they talked about what they did for the week. Or times where the talk was nothing about Christ at all. not mentioned once, than they talked about cool stories, ideas, never quoted scripture. Or that story of seeing demons in the sky, just depends what part of the world. Utah's meetings have some bland ones too as if the members are just "its ANOTHER week?" uh.. here we go again. Think about it the scriptures state "they met together oft in fasting and prayer"... They met together not like we do today in church. The expounded true doctrine, teachings, they :LEARNED great truths every week instead of reading the basic gospel principle book over and over, and getting the same interpretations of scriptures over and over again like no one ever gains new insight. It happens. The problem is the large growth and new converts. Its not a good thing and the scriptures warn of fast growth in a church, popularity, and prosperity as signs that the church is drifting off course (the tares are increasing). These are the signs that cause the cleansing christ talks about in the new testament. We are years away if that. I sense this gay marriage is the beginning. Scalia is already trying to get the LDS church to be forced to practice gay marraige AND lose its tax exempt status. (probably all churches)

The postion of the hands is important because it is symbolic of different "orders" of prayer. There is a bsic order, every day prayer, and a true order of prayer with grades between. God will answer either way we pray I am sure but there is still a true order. While privately its appropriate to pray with uplifted hands (search scriptures there are many references) I wouldn't do so publicly. I have also heard if you pray with outstreched arms its symbolic of receiving than if its up its symbolic of knocking? Maybe I got that backwards or entirely wrong. Or folding arms is symbolic of making the infinite figure 8 sign to heaven though some also believe its a form of tradition that is closer to satan inspired teachings (false doctrine). All things have their opposites. Maybe someone with more knowledge will know what is and what isn't.

There is not right way to serve others. What matters is you are doing something. I have seen both sides of this up close. People use it immediately for drugs. The scriptures tell us not to give to the rebellious (like food storage when we need it as its our noah's ark). There is a quote from brigham young would you give to 10 people if 9 of htem would use it incorrectly to help the 1? Of course.... (paraphrase). As I said, we can talk to them, we can help in other ways, or the actual grocery store, the Lord will provide a way for our ABILITIES to help. As long as its in OUR HEART to help. And we are not, NOT helping because of our greed or want for costly apparel or materialistic things. The Lord asked me to do so, I think more of a test for myself. Now I am not sure how much or freely. Still pondering that. Its funny, I don't feel very happy when I do. I usually feel, its not enough I should of given more, or I should of done more, was I trying to cheat the Lord and that person?. (Talk to them, or something)

Great comment Traveler,

Thanks for the kind words. I have learned, there is a time a place for all things. We want a Zion community. in 4th Nephi we learn what a Zion community was like. Than they fall away after about 2 generations. So interesting here. They started to keep the substance for themself. Thus divisions happens. They started to build churches!! Pride or self centered.

Bini gives a good point. If I was a bishop I would never give reason 1 unless I felt I really needed to. Why? Because only the Lord knows that answer. My wife was divorced and IT WAS the right thing for her to get out of it. Though it wasn't her choice as he left her, she should have done so long before the 2 years she was together. There is no blatant "fight for the marriage" or "don't fight for the marriage" answer. I wouldn't have a clue what to say being a bishop and probably be on the quieter side. Whether he was right or not, all you can do now is pray to overcome the ill feelings. Pray to gain love back towards him, specifically ASK GOD to allow yourself to forgive him. Also your spouse even though the spouse was the one that left. If you can do that, the Lord will bless you greatly.

I wish to recognize what the book of Mormon Calls wickedness that I am able to recognize it in myself. I have wanted to do this for some time. As I have looked into it recently I have started to realize how many things I DO that ARE wickedness. Its the process for us to do what james says. If we wish to give heed to the spirit, it will show unto us all things we do wrong. So my goal is to determine what is wrong and have the spirit show me what to work on. The three I have had a keen interest in are these two: 2. Wearing costly apparel [how far does this go?] 3. Setting their hearts on the vain things of the world 7. Turning their backs upon the poor, the needy and withholding their substance from them. All of which I am guilty of. I have learned our want for riches of the world, or costly apparel causes us (myself) to not give to the poor. "What if I need this money for later, so I save it", "But they don't need it, or I may need this money to get some camping gear" so I put off giving a lousy 2-5$ to a begger. Recently I have decided to always carry about 3 or 4, 5$ bills in my pocket and I will pray to find someone who needs it and give it to them. I have felt a greater peace even if I think they don't REALLY need it. Sometimes I feel don't give it, but when I don't feel anything I try to give now instead of "only give when I feel I SHOULD". The true blessings have been my ability to learn to remove my lust of money more so than I have. To not care about my money. This is a blessing and can be a negative thing too. But its one step at a time. We must make ourselves a Zion people before we even have hope of trying to get those around us to be These scriptures go along with the 3 points above: Here is moses farewell address as mentioned by Hugh Nibley. Approaching Zion - Work We Must, but the Lunch Is Free Ultimately it helps us cast off the world. Which I don't know how to do very well. Someone stated this, There is truth to it. Wanting and having money in the bank account because I'm afraid of not being taken care of(where your treasure is, there will your heart be also).

I am looking for the characteristics of someone that is wicked. I feel its much more subtle than I initially thought. Any scriptures or quotes would be appreciated. Here alma defines what happens than back in Alma 5 he defines some key elements. If you have others let me know. In verse 53, Alma asks the members whether they, after explaining their sins, will continue to avoid the issues at hand. As they 'lay aside these things', they 'trample the Holy One under their feet'. Which can mean some of the things below. 1. Puffed up in the pride of your hearts 2. Wearing costly apparel [how far does this go?] 3. Setting their hearts on the vain things of the world 4. Setting their hearts on their riches 5. Supposing that they are better one than another 6. Persecuting their brethren (who humble themselves and walk after the holy order of God, have become sanctified). 7. Turning their backs upon the poor, the needy and withholding their substance from them. Could we be mocking the poor just by 'adorning ourselves with costly apparel (a metaphor)'? As we 'lay these things aside' do we 'trample' the Savior under our feet? To 'lay these things aside' means to not want to think about them. It means to avoid these weightier matters and focus on other lighter things.

People around here won't like my answer here. But I will state it anyways. It was made commandment because its something the prophet wanted absent of direct revelation. Read the story of him implementing the law and you learn he just thought it was a "good thing to do". His councilors had a problem with it and struggled with parts of it even after it was made a common law. I have not read the whole story but from what I have read that is what it seemed. This could explain why its not as prominently as the original revelation. Because its not really a revelation but just a change of policy. But when the common consent, Was there common consent?, says to do so it becomes binding on the people. Therefore we covenant to obey it even if the Lord would be willing to remove parts of it. Don't quote me on this. I could be entirely wrong.

April 1980 the-coming-tests-and-trials-and-glory

Just what Byorts stated above. Its a quote from Holland. Not to say we have to be open about everything just pick our battles. We must stand up for whats right. LDS Church responds to Supreme Court decisions on gay marriage | Deseret News Common! Your representing the church. And they give this answer? Really? Standup for truth!

That article of faith does NOT say we have to live under the law. WE MUST STANDUP for FREEDOM! I will not, nor ever accept the evils that are coming up in the government. Not intentionally As Finrock posted, Israel Israel, God is calling.... Its time to attack Babylon. Proclamation to the Family The end is very very cose. Dare I say even in our lifetime. Its plausible to say the persecution of the saints is about to begin... Starting with this.,Than the gathering of the righteous amongst great war? or destruciton? than the GREAT destruction killing almost all, than the end will come.

Skadoosh.... HAHAH! I haven't heard that since my mission. We used to use it anytime someone said something stupid. :) Gospel Doctrine Teacher = my favorite calling. I love teaching from the scriptures. Not the manual but from the spirit.

I am not certain but I believe hot drinks was NOT wine as mentioned above. Before Jospeh Smith was killed both him and Hyrum asked for wine to drink. Wine is part of a symbolic ritual. a) Sacrament b) An ordinance of some type of comfort before someone goes off to "be killed"... Comforter to the soul? Jesus drank wine before he was esnt to the cross the same reason why Joseph asked for it because he knew he was about to be killed. Liquor is a strong drink, wine is a mild drink. D&C states they were only supposed to make their OWN wine to not get wine poisoned from the enemy. Else they were allowed to use wine. Not sure why or when wine or other mild drinks got added? But you look at the world today and its not a surprise why its "adapted to the weakest". Wine may not been a sin in the past but until it comes back with the sacrament we should remain obedient to the laws given.

Great Questions. I would like to add to question 2) Did we all have agency in our "first" organization form intelligence into spiritual bodies? Did we not have agency into what we ARE capable of BECOMING? Did Satan get organized with deceipt to come into his heart at a later time? Why didn't God just organize ALL to have the "intellgience" of to BE perfect the quickest way possible? Why do some fall? Did they not have agency in what they were organized as? Or is there a some element to the plan of salvation we don't understand in the Temporal Fall AND spiritual creation? Not to get off topic just wanted to expand on "where agency" plays into the entire picture. The fall was and IS important to God's plan. Without it two things would happen. 1) Earth would have become Terrestrial 2) We would not be able to progress as God. There would be progression in 1) but one is only capable of descending so far until their progression stops.

It all depends on the mission president. I believe our mission was allowed to the first visit to visit people. We were not going to reject someone knocking on a door and get let in and than deny them because they were alone. Thats ridiculous. than we were asked to findsome as the "third wheel". It seems they did not know before hand so they were nervous but now they know they would need a third person, a women, (if two elders, or just one male in the house)

That post sounds exactly like what I said before I got married. What was my deciding factors even though I seemed never to get an answer? Never did except when we got married I remember feeling very "peaceful" at that moment that it would be ok and this was right. 1) She was the only person I could be myself entirely around 2) I could tell her anything 3) She made me happy 4) I always wanted to be around her. Yes there were and are things in her personality/looks that drove me crazy, most have subsided now but others are still there. Things from her past bothered me occasionally. I really wanted to date around but couldn't break up with her as I was afraid to lose her. That was a sign I cared enough

I have the exact thoughts before, even further. I have thoughts come into my mind "there is no God", "its all false", "god is a liar"... These are thoughts from Satan. He is tempting you. They are false. Satan can speak to your mind. So if you think something put the thought away if you recognize it to be evil. Joseph Smith had satan tell him "there is no God", "thou fool"... I think that is the wording. When reading those scriptures, they are there to help us DISCERN evil from TRUTH. You have to analyze them even if you find yourself agree at first until you learn why its false. Satan is a Mater Teacher, Master of Lies. He knows how to incorporate GREAT TRUTH mixed with the philosophies of man. So it may ring as true but its not. First you hear it, that sounds right, than you look at each word carefull and realize, whoa, that is NOT TRUE. We read the scriptures to help us recognize truth and avoid deception. Its line upon line, precept upon precept. Youll be ok Pray to recognize truth and not be deceived. Than continue to study hard.

Amen. This was a wakeup call for me a little while ago. How many of us state, "our government will fall", "secret combinations are above us", "things are too awful to do anything", than someone said what you just did...God is mightier than the nations of the world combined. God can do anything. We should seek his will for us to know how we can for ourselves accomplish it, whatever the goal is. He will show US how to overcome that which seems hopeless even if others don't follow. The book of mormon is absolutely true record that I am attempting to make it a serious study in my life. My attempt will succeed

I love this thread. I just became aware of this view point. I actually think it has much to do with what will happen. It incorporates exactly what Glen stated here: The OP states these things will be practiced INSIDE the temple. The great anti-Christ is supposed to walk right into the temple and claim to be God and disgrace the temple. (This one may be in Jerusalem) But we too do know this, "upon my house shall it begin". Why? Because something or someone will disgrace (make unholy) the temple of God to such a degree God will have no choice but to cleanse it and the people. Gay marriage is one way. It would likely be a MEMBER of the 12 who accepts it or does it. Infact if the government forced such a notion, it could divide the church in half. Some will allow it to "uphold the government" others will "uphold the laws of God".... Than the 15 will choose a side all the way to the bottom. Perhaps, the ones who uphold the laws of God will be required to resign or perhaps something entirely different. Others like Cleon Skousen had the view of our temples becoming disgraced. Not sure how but I do think this is ONE likely scenario. It takes into account "a test is coming, a test, a Test, a TEST" and "each will be left with the light within themselves"... This scenario would create such confusion for the membership if they don't have the spirit they would fall. Perhaps this could be considered another form of "the mark of the beast" (just another view, there are dozens out there) There is a quote from the original 12 to JS that states that once we are not allowed to worship in our temples the wrath of God will be released (paraphrasing extensively).