ElectofGod

they were translated, why because they were righteous and had exceedingly great faith. Part of ones ascension into Godhood.

Better question. If all things are before God, the past, present and future. than... Hmm? What is actually here right now? EDIT mis read the OP.

AKA I am not going to give him another reason to twist my words, find fault with me, and do anything he can to find something negative in what I am saying. He faults me for saying I am not understanding the TRUE meanings. And he is totally missing the point of mine. Its a waste of time, not uplifting, lack of spirit, unedifying, not to mention POINTLESS discussion. JUST_AGUY, And you did bring FRUITS into this discussion. Back about "I will compare him to DS! He doesn't think he is evil like I do so he must be evil, logical explanation. These are the bad fruits...and you listed some ..." Not to mention you slandered an ENITRE testimony of an individual, daniel rodgers, because he interpreted ONE verse differently than you? Seriously? Who does that? That gold digger joseph you know? I am going to read this tesitmony, find ONE thing wrong with it and say "I don't discount his testimony" BUT, Let me requote you, Its apparent you do not know the difference between FOLLOW and RECEIVE. "D&C 76:101 But received not" Daniel "Even followers of true prophets" Its becoming apparent what you are trying to do. But I will say you probably did it out of ignorance.. I hope so. Discredit someone else, one whom the Lord himself accepted I don't care. Not to say I know he had these experiences but I do believe he did. I am out. Off to spiritually uplifting discussion. I hope someone just locks this thread. Remove the temptation for both of us.

Basically, there is TRUTH in EVERY RELIGION. Muslims, budhism. Wow, defended? What you said was, "Just because something is sustained and voted in as Do[c]trine (common consent) does not make it truth or doctrine. It may be binding because we accept something, but it does not make it binding to God." Actually YOU said that too. Yeahh, we said the same thing. Said Saul of Tarsus, when he supported the stoning of Stephen . . . Oh Irony. So did nephi say, the lord delivered laban into his hands. Some bad bad fruits their! *sarcasm* What do you mean by "awful", specifically, aside from "dared to question postulates I never questioned" and "reached different conclusions than I did"? You got a brain you read it.

All you do is twist my words. You have plenty of flaws in your comments too. LOF done in ignorance? Theres a good one. Anything to suit your paradigm. How do you know? You don't. How will we ever know? Who knows? Lets just pick an answer that feels gooooooood. I never said the manifesto was wrong. I just said that ONE phrase was misleading. I am exactly where the Lord wants me to do. He led me here. There is nothing to snap out of. BTW Greg smith the reviewer of visions of glory? This? Spencer’s Visions of Glory | FairMormon Sorry but this review was awful.

Anyways,, back to the OP.

Just when I thought we had so much in common after your post in eternal lives thread. I will assume we just like to discuss our disagreements more than agreements :). My suspicion and content? Oh please, you always condemn my quotes. Yet they said it. I have no content or suspicion about the LDS church. I am a proud member of the LDS church. Perhaps the itnent of my posts are coming off differently than the real intents. That is my fault. My posts are too long, I try to shorten them. But you missed the whole point of that quote, "we wil be condemned for teaching false doctrines and we will be damned for not accepting true doctrines" Its not to condemn brigham young. McConkie said, he went on to eternal glory... I hope he is right. Abinadi, Just by not teaching truth that is required to connect to heavenly father you are perverting the ways of the lord. This is why I seek to declare the truth required to connect to heaven. I may fail miserably, say my own false teachings worse than Brigham young, and many others but I am trying. All I know is the word Gentiles in the book of mormon refers to us the LDS church. The prophecies are about ALL of us. Written for us, to help us come out of condemnation. I listened to GC and the Lord reconfirmed to me we are still under condemnation (President Benson) and drifting farther into Darkness and under the bondage of sin (the effects of those under condemnation). Still the Lords church, but we are passing ripe for destruction. Thus why "upon my house shall it begin... and shall go forth". I will wait upon the Lord. It will begin upon His house, those who "have professed to know my name but don't". As for being led astray, To every man his own to accept light and truth. That man is pure light and truth. He is either an antiChrist or a true servant of the Lord. (not the president, we are all to be servants) Here you go, you will enjoy this read. By their fruits shall you know them. The Second Comforter | My experience with the Second Comforter That which is evil cannot bring forth bad fruits. Now I expect the comments about... begin

Well, as soon as I posted I was led to the full quote by McConkie. I may post this over in the LOF thread. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Wont' **** him but it will us! So it is with everything... Back to the OP, The manifesto.

But if we wait for someone else to correct something that is pertinent for our salvation, we will be damned. Because thsoe stakes will **** (d word) us. Prophets teach us to all be prophets. Not to wait upon them. Or need them. Or wait upon them to correct something. Or anything else. They point to Christ, if we point to them in ANY way. Our minds become darkened, we are setting them up for idol worship. Joseph said, This notion that, Is the worse, it not saying, Moses speak to me. Its saying, if this is wrong, The prophet will fix it, so I wil not going to bother correcting it myself, asking God, and I will tell others, STOP saying something is wrong, stop fault finding, God will correct it. If it doesn't its correct for our times! I don't want moses to speak for me. I don't want monson to speak for me. I don't want to speak for any of them. But I will say God will not correct things until someone asks the questions. Its becoming more evident that people are so founded on this doctrine, If it needs fixing his prophets will do it. Or God won't let us be led astray so don't even worry about it, we don't have to worry about anything. All is well! God will protect us even if we are accepting many traditions of our fathers. My point? His prophets don't correct everything, nor will, its our responsibility to correct things. Indeed, it is part of our shifting process of mortality.

As someone else pointed out in another thread, Just because something is sustained and voted in as Dcotrine (common consent) does not make it truth or doctrine. It may be binding because we accept something, but it does not make it binding to God.

While mortality is a time for action by faith, what you say gives no explanation for the millions who die as children, handicaps, etc... They do not need a test of action? Belief was enough. They were able to excercise faith in the presence of God unto life and salvation by being IN the presence of God? Than mortality would be utterly pointless. As what ever consisted of in the 1st estate was enough to make a man perfect, as was Christ.

Same thing we wer doing before we came here, the same thing we are doing now, and will continue to do the same thing until we stop progressing. "this is my work and my glory to bring to pass the imortality and eternal life of man" When we die, we the same spirit we have now will be taken with us. This spirit will be just as obedient as it was when it departed, if our life was good we will be "added upon" or "improved". We will contineu to work out OUR eternal life, which eternal life is to know God. We are attempting to ascend Jacobs Ladder. Exceeding faith and good works... In the presence of God?

Could the members also cause it to be led astray instead of the leaders? Now I am not saying it will just wondering. The problem with yourassumption, if the membership recogniznes it, they will be excommunicated. The prophet and apostles will disagree and has all authority for the church. Likewise, others will use this quote to say THEY, the members, are wrong because the prophet cannot lead us astray. Because of this belief, there is NOTHING the members can do about anything the prophet or apostles do whether its right or wrong. So they say this quote must mean that the 15 majority will never be lead astray or go contrary to God. That God himself will correct it. Yet what happened with Grant, he did not confirm for 20 years men to the priesthood, only ordained to offices. This means for 20 years people did not "have the priesthood". Or we are doing it wrong today. Thats just one example. The only way to rectify this quote is to say that the Lord puts in the 15 who will not lead us astray. GOD ALWAYS gives us what we want. We have been under condemnation as a church since the beginning days of the Church (See Bensons talk in GC and Oaks confirmed this recently). We have not gotten out from it thus "we are under the bondage of sin" "in darkness" (D&C 84, also D&C 90). If we remain in condemnation and want it, which we are still under, we will remain here forever degrading further from God or finally get out of condemnation and get closer to God, so until a people want something different we will continue to fall further away from God. NOTHING is static in this world. Basically the only way WE cannot be led astray is to get POWER in the holy Ghost. That is the only sure way. This is consistent with this promise, If one is under condemnation, which our whole church is, we will receive the lesser portion until we know nothing at all. We must build our foundation on the Rock. Personal revelation through the holy Ghost, which only points to the one who is Perfect, Jesus Christ. Thus why the Lord made this promise, Want to fix this? Get out of condemnation YOURSELF. Receive the Lord through teh veil, converse with him as one man converses with another. You are correct in that if the members will get out of condemnation we can remove this curse upon us and not allow it to be led astray. How many does it take? How many does it take to start zion? Well as with noah it will be with the coming, it only took what 8 people? (plus enoch). Donald Perry said When God gives the Saints the Melchizedek Priesthood, which is the power and authority to ascend into the presence of God through temple ordinances, they must come or be damned. http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/I00111-Hebrews_To_Ascend_the_Holy_Mount.html This is the covenants of the book of mormon that brings US under condemnation as told by Benson. We have been cursed. Lets remove it. Not to derail the thread but I felt this needed to be said. I talk to much. Enough said.

According to this than. I must question everything that has been made cannon. For it all can be alterable, false, incomplete, misleading, so everything the prophet, apostles gives us could be false. Thus why we must follow Christ and the holy spirit and none else. Anyways, Since its a new thread, The LOF are a manual on how to part the veil of unbelief. The sacrifice and knowledge that is required to gain salvation. They are eternally true.

As qutoed, This definition of Godhead lays a foundation FOR faith unto life and salvation. So if we reject it and its true, how can we have the faith unto life and salvation? I already posted on the distinction between the Holy spirit and the Holy Ghost and how they could be different. I posted scriptures as things to consider. Also, Really nothing else to say without going in circles.

By joseph smith own words. If one rejects or even if they do not understand the character of God, doees not understand what Joseph was trying to say when in fact it says one must understand it to receive life unto salvation, by definition they do not have the knowledge unto life and salvation. This is my point right here... If it was not cannon and was misleading, than it truly is not doctrine. IF it is cannon and NOT misleading, than we are rejecting PURE doctrine. Simple it was at one time doctrine and decanonized. Or it was false misleading doctrine revealed to the church sustained as doctrine. Which is worse? A ) We decanonized doctrine B ) The church was able to canonize misleading or false doctrine. Whether it was the will of the lord or not for category A or B is not the issue as its possible it was. ITS The consequences of why is huge. YES, I believe all that he HAS revealed including the LOF. Or again lack of records... But I do not believe this to be the case as the spirit tells me they are eternally true.

EDIt as I was writing finrock already wrote out a response. Disparaging? No body said anything ill against anyone. So you are allowed to say joseph smith and sidney rigdon got it wrong but we are not allowed to say JFS and all the others on that comittet got it wrong without disparaging anyone. With that logic you are disparaging all those who voted in AS doctrine the lectures on faith. I really don't mind if you disagree just pointing out the other view of this. Either the first 100ish years they had it right, or the next 90ish years. Its pretty simple. One group of people has an incorrect understanding of the Godhead if its not correct. I take LOF as doctrine. You don't have to. It is not disparaging anyone. You jus said those, along with Uchtdorf in GC that they make mistakes. The question here is who did? The church in 1835 who voted it as doctrine or the church in 1921 who said it should not be included in the standard works. Do I know the minds of the 1921 committee no. Just what they wrote or was published for that matter. Or there is a third option here. The church failed to keep accurate records and there is more to the story. This one is more serious. So I will give the committee the benefit of situation. Because I believe it was done with best intentions.

Another interesting quote, JS final discourse, This is inline with 130, seperate teaching than what he was trying to portray as only being two personages and the holy spirit. Two very different but true teachings.

Excellent observation. This same observation is in mosaiah. For the same logic we would have to reject the book of mormon. The wording in lectures was tabernacle. So we have to understand what was trying to be said. I won't state it but will give some references to help the process. Thats enough for now, The second issue was, whether josephs understanding changed. Or sidney who both saw the heavens and God sitting upon the throne. In the lectures on faith it states. Keep in mind they were at least doctrine until 1921, though there was no vote to take them out thus by common consent technically they are still true. McConkie even stated they are eternally true. Lecture 5, In order for one to excercise or have faith in God unto eternal life (salvation) they must have a correct understanding of the character, perfections, and attributes. We know joseph DID have a correct understanding of these things. If the lectures are true, and this statement is true, than the lectures purpose was to give us this correct understaning. If JFS is correct, than the lectures are false or incorrect doctrine, if the lectures are true and we reject them, we will be damned. We will never have the faith neccesary unto life and salvation, for we will never have the correct understanding of the 3 ideas of god. We must choose, are teh lectures true or false. We choose wrong we very well could be choosing damnation. Salvation is always our choice. We always choose between light and truth or darkness and deception. I know joseph and sideny rigdon wrote correctly and understood the character of God. They saw him, they know what they are and were talking about. Joseph approved the lectures. I accept the LOF as eternal doctrine. james123 had a good post, if you look at D&C 130, they are talking about completely different topics at hand. One talks about three beings, another talks about the Godhead. Normally we say because tehre are three beings discussed they correspond to the godhead, but in this case a different idea is trying to be portrayed. My belief anyways.

Expanding on skal's post. Very next verse, Distinguishes between the two. They are not the same though sometimes they are used interchangeably. Joseph smith in the lectures on faith defined the holy spirit as the mind of god. This is what made Christ one with the father because they both possed the holy spirit or mind of god. Notice he did not say Holy ghost but holy spirit. The holy ghost, the Comforter the record of heaven the truth of all things the peacable things of immortal glory that which quickeneth all things that which knoweth all things that which has all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice and judgment. We receive the holy ghost, but we communicate with the holy spirit (mind of god) via the holy ghost.

I will add, coming uunto christ is literally to come unto him. Its not enough to believe, or practice. It incorporates much, it requires understanding of truth, absolute knowledge, not just belief but mere knowledge. Joseph smith taught, If a man does not have a correct understanding of God he never has the faith required to see and know him. He did so, so that we would know what it means to come unto Christ. I will copy an except in lecture 3. What does it really mean to come unto Christ that makes one part of his church? This church is as mentioned by finrock a spiritual church, God's church. Here is the fruits for one who comes unto Christ. One has eternal life on no other principle except to know God. Which is the fruits of they who come unto Christ. Which fruits are those who... What does it mean to know God, rather than to know about God? | Questions and Answers | Christianity.net.au While i don't agree with everything in that link they illustrate the most important thing what it means to come unto christ and know him But these end results only happen when one has gained the correct "character, perfections, and attributes" through obedience to God, can be learned. Stricly through obedience through the holy spirit that lightens ALL of us. Christian, non christian, alike. I am just showing how much more complicated that verse is, "repent and come unto me"... Coming unto Christ involves so much more and requires so much more than most believe. It requires a "sacrifice of ALL things". Without such a sacrifice one cannot inherit eternal life. As Finrock said there are elect children of God over all the earth. Hope I am making sense, may not be.

+1 very good book.

D&C 10:67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church. 68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

Still you exist by faith, you are still breathing by faith, all things and your current state is due to the current faith you have. The only thing keeping you from going further is lack of faith, and the only thing keeping you from ceasing that progress is faith. Anyways... Lectures on faith explain all of this. Read it. And you got one thing right, if EVERYONE had exceedingly great faith there would be no need for any of these worldly telestial regemes, buisness, hospitals, etc... 4th nephi is a zion society... These things don't happen because we lack the faith. If everyone had the faith there would be no need for the lame, death, the ill, or injured. When Christ appeared to America he said, If we had the same level of faith among hte people we could do the same thing. EVERY one would be healed. But we are sinners who refuse to come unto our lord and savior, for his hands are extended all the days long and we will not receive him. These are those who survived the destruction they were "the more righteous" among the people. Not the wicked or "good" people but more righteous. Ones with great faith.

Anything is possible. The lady who touched christs garments was healed just by touching... Others washed themselves in the river jordan? and were healed Joseph smith healed himself All things are done by faith.