Quin

I think your parents are correct. Meaning that there are 2 right choices. Pray on it. Q

Gross. On several levels. 1... He's using this to hurt you. Even if it were entirely acceptable to break your vows, doing it in such a way as to cause pain to your wife & children is reprehensible. 2... The breaking vows part. ((The "Oh, but we're GOING to..." Hs about as much weight with me in divorce as breaking the law of chasity pre marriage. Until a thing is done, it's not done. And I've been there, by the by. Sure. There were a LOT of times I really just wanted strong arms to hold me and tell me everything is going to be okay. It took 2 years for my divorce to finalize. Ugh. But I'm glad I kept my end of things on the moral high ground. So mich of everything else in my lofe was just in the muck, it would have been very easy to jump down in the muck, too. The Spirit was of HUGE comfort during this time.)) I'm sorry. Do know, this doesn't reflect on you, or on your kids. It's not your fault he's making these choices. It does not negate your own vows, or tarnish you adhering to them. AKA, just because he's doing the wrong thing, that doesn't make you guilty by association. Keep your chin up. Q

LOL... I often think of the first year as "Okay, how much do you REALLY mean it?" My first year was a series of "oops". My ward split (crazy logistical nightmare, lots and lots falling through the cracks) My HT was the ONE guy in the Ward I can't stand (not his fault) The time switched at New Years to a time I couldn't attend for months My (awesome!) RS visiting teacher / gal-pal moved out of state I didn't have my "new member lessons" (new convert/ new member disc.) for 14 months Come to find there were TONS of things I could have been a part of, that I just didn't know about. The list goes on. Come to find this is a pretty common occurance. Some people take it personally or feel abandoned (in part because it DOESN'T always happen, although it IS super common). I didn't. I figured. While investigating, the missionaries were there carving space & leading me around. But in the day to day Church... People have jobs, lives, sick kids, family drama, etc. And my face wasn't new or "lost looking" anymore, so people assumed I knew what I was supposed to be doing. LOL. That was rarely the case! But I did know which room to go to, where to find the loo, how to pass the sacrement, etc... So I blended. Personally, I spent MUCH of that first year finding balance. As in how to balance my OWN life, inside the church. I would have been there every day for hours without that "Okay, breathe" year. As that's how I do things: school, work, kids, etc... I dive on in. I'd expected to do the same thing religiously. HF threw on the breaks. Nope. Huh-uh. That's not how we're going to do it, this time. What??? Noooooooooo. Boo. So, while I was frustrated in the beginning, I grew to really appreciate "slipping through the cracks"... Because it let me get solid in my OWN commitment. It also taught me to reach out. Ask what XYZ is, or if I can help with abc, or this/that/etc. and to not expect perfection. Amd to have more compassion for others (Instead of just being upset about what I wasn't getting, to see that maybe others lives weren't all about me. Which, Dont get me wrong, I already KNEW, but I also came from a religious background with full-time priest... Not laity. It was a different mindset to get into.). Okay. They have lives, and that doesn't mean ANYTHING about me! < grin > Also... To feed the Elephants Child... All the young men's/young women's and other "growing up lds" stuff (teachers manuals, student workbooks, reading assignments, etc,) is available online. So I got to do some "catchup" in my own time. Which made the gospel principles & other meetings take on a lot more depth. Almost magically, at the end of that first year... I got "sucked back in". This, too, is pretty common. People who have been "set adrift" after about a year... Are suddenly in the thick of things. Hence my "Do you reeeally want it?" Designation. Now, this ISN'T now things always go. Sometimes all the dominos fall into place, and you're in the thick of things from day 1 Or sometimes you're on your own for a bit. The way HF works in my life, I got exactly what I needed, although not what I wanted. Not sure how he works in yours! So I can't tell you what to expect, just sharing my own experience. Q

There's also a whole heckuva a lot of civilizations (including several with actual walled cities) in Meso & South America that most people are just clueless about. I don't have my mesoamerican anthropology book handy... But I'll snap some pics of it and upload some of them once I'm back home. Some are utterly amaaaaaazing... Abandoned cities (walled, concentric) when rivers changed, or "other" reasons (aka lots of speculation because we don't really know, or war/plague/disease/famine). I had no idea how many real, honest to Gd CITIES, and civilizations existed (Both in the Americas, and pre-Egyptian during the 10,000 years of "silence" between hunter gatherers & ancient Egypt) before I took this class. Mind. Blowing. Not to mention the cotton growing/weaving on the coast below the Andes... Where people actually RODE (most of Meso & South America riding and roads made no sense, too much vertical traversing). I mean, we've all heard of the big3 (Maya, Toltec, Aztec)... But that there were DOZENS of others... And that we're still finding them (terrain + Jungle + massive climate change + not knowing how to translate most writing systems + modern day politics = we're just scratching the surface of what's out there)... Is just really really exciting. Q

:lol: Too Right!!! Almost or as funny as nonparents telling parents - How they're doing "it" wrong (pick a subject, any subject!) - How THEY'RE going to do "it" when THEY have kids (good luck with that!) ((I'm in the opposite boat. I didn't want any (I'd be the cool auntie), until I had my first... Then I wanted 5-10. < grin > I know a lot of "us" (from my preLDSdays) who weren't hipped on having kids... Who are now suddenly waist deep in little ones and just shocked (go figure) at how amazing they are & how much we love it. Serious feminism run amok. I can't say for sure, but I often get the impression that if I'd been looking at marriage not just for my own self, but as a father to my future-kids that I wouldn't have made the choices I did. Since I "was never", though, looking at men as fathers and not just lovers didn't enter into my dating process. )) Q

There is a HUGE difference though, in not waiting to have kids when you're all tabula rasa, and when you're retreading. Monumental difference. An avg 20yo with no credit, no education, just starting out normal vs An avg 35yo divorcée with destroyed credit (very very few retain good credit through a divorce), no -or out of date/inadequate- education, starting OVER... Often with debt pushing 6 figures (divorces easily cost 40k-80k), children needing a lot of time/money, emotional scars/baggage, court battles, the list goes on. Also important (very!) to mention... The kind of guy who is attracted to you when you're a HotMess is an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT kind of guy than one who is attracted to you once you've gotten yourself together and are capable/confidant/ doing well/ have come into your own. (Knights in Shining Armor tend not to like you once you don't need rescuing, and predators also seek out more desperate prey just as two examples of why many women avoid dating for several years). ARE there guys who'll laugh with you rough the bad times, and revel in your successes later on? Yup. But they're rare. Most PEOPLE are attracted to who one IS, not who one might be. Birds of a feather, like to like, even opposites attract all work off of us being who we are in a fairly static sense. Just because a woman is now single again at 35 doesn't mean she reverts back to being 20... Nor that advice which is sound for the average 20yo is still sound for the average 35yo. Q

Oh sweetie, I am so, so, sorry. Suggestion: Since you're feeling totally isolated... Perhaps it's time to get the heck OUT of dodge. While moving may seem like an impossible endeavor, my good friend (MSWlic through a cancer care facility) helps** people with JUST THAT. Getting them out from their small town with no resources, and little local understanding, and moved to a housing situation* somewhere that they CAN avail themselves both of resources and familiarity/understanding. * the housing varies tremendously from client to client. Some are as far gone as hospice care, others in nursing, group, or assisted living (apartments w/ total privacy but on site nursing care, cooking, cleaning, etc. Plus daily activities. Kind of like living in a hotel, with your own stuff). ** By helps this includes - Case management / ascertaining both the patient's wishes and medical needs / mediating between getting all the care needed lined up - Finding funding... Either insurance, charity, scholarship, donations, etc... But more often a combo of the above. - Finding resources (housing, transportation, moving services, counseling, spiritual support, to.) - Liasing w/family. - & much much more Her services are free to all the patients in the cancer care clinic... Just as other social workers services are free to patients in hospital, hospice, and outpatient clinics. People HEAR social workers... And immediately flash to "child protective services"... But that's not what medical social workers who work in healthcare do. My friend says about 80% of her job is finding resources & funding for folk, about 20% acute care (grief counseling, etc.). The hospital you were diagnosed in... Should have social workers on staff. I would ring them up, or any liver clinic you're currently going to OR llooking to go to, and get them engaged in helping you move somewhere that you can recieve the care you need... In a local that has OTHER things you need (cabulance, for example, and a ward near a hospital ... Which is going to be much more medically minded / have weekly sacraments that are brought to you, etc.). Until my friend started working in this field I had NO idea that there were - actually jobs where people do this kind of thing / exactly what it sounds like you need most - the huge wealth of resources available... If you know where to ask/look. All my best, Q

I'm fairly sure that Lakumi assumed we all had a basic K12 education... Which makes "proving" what is part of any decent primary education redundant. I might have said "arguably killed more" if I was on my A game, but this IS a message board, not a peer review journal... But in any event... Here are some of those stats that are easy enough to source online. There are literally hundreds of other examples.... But here's a hundred million + deaths: Jewish - Halocaust - 5.9 million Estimated Number of Jews Killed in the Final Solution | Jewish Virtual Library With all due respect to those who listed Hitler as a secular source... I'm sure the nearly 6 million Jews and their descendents would beg to disagree that their religion played no part in others trying to wipe their religion and its people off the face of the globe. Also... Just as a gentle reminder, Stalin & Mao, and other communist lessers also targeted religious leaders & practitioners. Which bumps up another 5-30 million Taiping Revolutiom ... 20 million Taiping Rebellion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia French Wars of Religiom (1562-1598) ... 2million-4million Iran Iraq war (1980-88) ... 500,000-2million also...Iran-Iraq Conflict Afghan Civil War (1979-Present) 1.5-2million Empire of Japan Conquests 5-30million (I'd say this is a low estimate, actually, but then Omwas taught Japanese history in Japan, and just like American history taught in the US, there's a bit of cultural bias). (The above 6, and others, are handily available here with a handy dandy bibliography to peruse at your leisure.): List of wars and anthropogenic disasters by death toll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Crusades 1-4million Crusades - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Golden Age of Islam / Moorish Expansion (800-1100ad) Israeli Palestinian/Arab Conflict (1920-Present) apx 200,000 (scarily, so,e of the lowest numbers yet!) Total Casualties, Arab-Israeli Conflict | Jewish Virtual Library 30 years War (1618-1648) 3-11.5million. Religious war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Yugoslav wars tally still growing, as more mass graves from genocide are being discovered. Over 35,000 Albanian women were kept in Serbian rape camps, so those numbers are fairly solid, but whole villages were gassed, and there is still fallout from chemical weapons used years ago killing people... So numbers get dicey. I've heard as low as the wiki, up to a couple million. Fr now well just say 250,000+ Yugoslav Wars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Of course, Im leaving out hundreds of religious conflicts. Olmec/Aztec/Mayan just sort of leaps to mind, because I took that class, and have forgotten the numbers)... But that's only a few. A smattering of additional reading on religion & conflict Religion and Conflict Case Studies http://www.cissm.umd.edu/papers/files/deathswarsconflictsjune52006.pdf Institute for War and Peace Reporting - http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/estimates.doc Also... From here, some other religious conflicts. Please feel free to research on your own: Twentieth Century Atlas - Death Tolls Generally speaking, in most of the following cases, religion is both the stated cause of the killing and the only substantive difference between the two opposing groups. Obviously, there would be many additional conflicts where religion is just one of several divisions. Albigensian Crusade, 1208-49 Algeria, 1992- Aztecs Baha'is, 1848-54 Bosnia, 1992-95 Boxer Rebellion, 1899-1901 Christian Romans, 30-313 CE Croatia, 1991-92 Early Christian doctrinal disputes English Civil War, 1642-46 Holocaust, 1938-45 Huguenot Wars, 1562-1598 India, 1992-2002 India: Suttee & Thugs Indo-Pakistani Partition, 1947 Iran, Islamic Republic, 1979- Iraq, Shiites, 1991-92 Jews, 1348 Jonestown, 1978 Korea, 1700s Lebanon 1860 1975-92 Martyrs, generally Molucca Is., 1999- Mongolia, 1937-39 Northern Ireland, 1974-98 Responsibility generally (Is religion responsible for more deaths than ...?) Christian culpabiltiy Russian pogroms: 1905-06 1917-22 St. Bartholemew Massacre, 1572 Shang China, ca. 1300-1050 BCE Shimabara Revolt, Japan 1637-38 Sikh uprising, India, 1984-91 Spanish Inquisition, 1478-1834 Sudan 1881-98 Taiping Rebellion, 1850-64 Thirty Years War, 1618-48 Tudor England Vietnam, 1800s Witch Hunts, 1400-1800 Xhosa, 1857 In addition, here are a few noteworthy conflicts where dissimilar ethnic groups fought for primarily religious reasons: Arab Outbreak, 7th Century CE Arab-Israeli Wars, 1948- Al Qaeda, 1993- Bible Crusades, 1095-1291 Dutch Revolt, 1566-1609 Muslim conquest of India, 11th-17th C Nigeria, 1990s, 2000s Pakistan, 2004-

I don't think it's inherently a bad thing to avoid known tests. The first thing that popped to mind was Monty Python's "Let me face the peril!", but on a less flippant vein... There's no way on earth I want to be tested with losing a child. Some people's faiths deepen, some break. Quite frankly, I don't want to know what mine would do, as he potential cost is far too high. And then there's that grey area... Where what is a test for one isnt for another. (I can spend uncountable time in bars and not even be tempted much less tested. I have friends who, if they walk into a bar -or even just near one-, are in actual pain. It's a severe test for them. As the anti-LDS stuff ISN'T a test for me, Im not trying to minimize or dismiss other people's struggles, nor choices of those who actively avoid things which do them (or have the potential) to do them harm. There's a really great quote that reads It is easier to exclude harmful passions than to rule them, and to deny them admittance than to control them after they have been admitted. Seneca Roman dramatist, philosopher, & politician (5 BC - 65 AD) Ditto... Just because its easier, doesn't mean it's a bad thing. It's easier not to feel jealousy. Pain in the neck to deal wih after its been admitted. I think we have challenge ourselves, test ourselves, etc set up,as such a "positive" thing colloquially, that there's a knee jerk avoidance = bad thing that happens a lot (like skipping school to avoid a test, or settling for something less than our best by not challenging ourselves... When really... As you said testing ourselves depends on the value of the test. Lets test our addictive propensities = a GREAT test to avoid. Forever. Again, just wanted to underscore that just because its my way to look at all sides, that I'm not trying to promote it as the only way, much less the only right way. Just seeking to understand how's and whys of when it's my way, or a totally different way!! :) Q

Sorry! Not my intention, at all. As I wasn't raised I honestly have/had no idea whether these are things taught in primary or YW/YM or seminary (as I haven't done those things), or whether like a lot of sexual topics its on the parents to teach, even though there's an understanding that its "supposed" to be taught, or... If like what I experienced as a convert, one isn't supposed to really even look at it. I was trying to figure out what is the norm (taught; if so by whom, or not; and if so, why?). Q

One of the things I did when I was investigating was trawl through as much anti-Mormon literature as I was easily able to. It's something I do with most things (both new & familiar)... Find out what the detractors have to say about "it", look at their sources, their arguments, etc. Without exception, the anti-stuff was all pretty comforting as it fell into one of a few categories - Stuff that happens in ANY group (religious, political, school, neighborhood, etc.)... Like bad experiences with an individual or small gout within the larger group, but the larger group was fantastic. Or money management. Or politics. Or, or, or. Essentially: people being people doing people things. The same things one will find at work, in the PTA, in book club, sports teams, families, whatever. Anywhere people interact with each other. Okay. No worries. There are people in the church. I think I can deal. Especially as this isn't a small church, so there are lots of social dynamics to choose from. I like the norm, the abnormal is just that, and there are going to be lots of personalities that will not always get on with each other. Check. - Moot History. Aka things that happened 100+ years that Dont happen now. Interesting, but doesn't bug me. Women can vote, slavery is illegal, all-volunteer-military, etc are all things (secularly) that were true 100+ years ago, but are true now. In my mind, these things are mostly GOOD things. Things to be PROUD of joining (or belonging to) a group which has changed for - The religious bit (this actually cracks me up, like in stitches laughing). Because the LDS church is a religion. Yet a rather high number of complaints are surrounding religious concepts. Like that the Church has them. Ummmmm.... Okay? - probably some others, but those are the ones coming to mind. So 2 things give me real pause surrounding the anti-Mormon-schtuff. 1) Why so many people are shocked or have their faith shaken by this kind of muckraking? 2) Why we are so often counseled (bishopric, mission, sunday school, etc.) to avoid looking at the anti-schtuff, instead of being taught to break it down scientifically / read critically (my bias, i was raised in a science-family, and am a scientist/teacher by trade), or logically. I can see that it's probably fear of #1 that leads to #2... But...??? I know my own process, and my own methods... So I may be missing something, here. Do most of all y'all here just not look, or do what I do, or do something totally different? Is the counsel not to look the party line, or just my locale? For born & raised folk... We're you taught to read critically (aka scientifically) in the security of home, or did the church used to teach it, or??? For converts, did you have the same "Yikes! Don't do THAT!" Reaction from missionaries and teachers I did? I'm just baffled by the repeating theme of people learning moot history, or having a personality conflict that could happen anywhere, and completely losing faith. It feels like there's a disconnect somewhere (possibly in my brain B) oy)... Something obvious being missed. Not that this happens at all... But it happens so frequently. Thoughts? Q

1) I think the point being made is that this is what you were TOLD he said. Which may or may not be the case. Actually... It disturbs me a lot more that someone is going around talking about what happened in a private counseling session, gossiping, and mudslinging... Than whatever was actually said in the session. 2) Divorces almost never happen because both people really love and respect each other and have no problems whatsoever. At BEST, most divorces are amicable ... At worst they're vicious & ugly & people die. Point being... It's pretty naturall that your cousin & his wife don't like each other right now. That doesn't mean that they're terrible people who should each go into seclusion and never grace society again.

I forgot to say... All of my were 1% off. Does this mean Im George Lucas? Q

This makes me furious. Fighting mad. Spitting mad. Swearing mad. ... My 9yo son almost died. A lot. As in months in the hospital, "The FIRST time they call a code on your kid is really scary", many many surgeries, touch and go for over a year. The med that finally WORKED has a side effect: weight gain. So he went from being a competitive gymnast to rolly poly, love handles, pudge. He doubled his weight (75lbs to 140) in a year. The GRIEF he's had to put up with in UNGODLY. Literally. His punishment for living is that people get to look down on him, give him all kinds of unsolicited BAD advice, and just generally be evil. JUST like this officious nasty awful thing. Her "good intentions" aren't just paving a road for herself... She's causing pain and suffering to these kids and their families. Ugh! I don't care about me. I can put someone in a smack down in about 10 seconds flat if I care to... Although let me just say how AWESOME it is to have parents and strangers thinking you're a bad parent. Constantly. It's stellar. I actively HATE people like this lady. Which may not be very christian of me, but I'd really like to rock a bit of Old Testament judgement on these kids of people. Breathe. Breathe. Breathe. Yeah. Major sore spot. Where's the Tasmanian Devil spluttering mad emoticon when you need it? Q

Or perhaps the Spirit is RIGHT THERE with you, and you're heeding Him. I mean, really. What does your Bishop think will be more effective... Guilting, shaming, and pseudo-forcing by adults, or peer pressure from excited kids his own age prepping to go, and coming back (not to mention pretty girls making eyes at RMs), all at a church college? Sheesh. Some people just can't seem to get it through their heads that not all action requires meddling. Sometimes, the best action to take is patience. Q

Thank you for giving me something to think about that I never have, before! . It's a really cool thing to ponder.

Out of all political commentators in history... Heilein is probably my favorite. Here's another quote by him: Signs of a dying culture It is a bad sign when the people of a country stop identifying themselves with the country and start identifying with a group. A racial group. Or a religion. Or a language. Anything, as long as it isn't the whole population. A very bad sign. Particularism. It was once considered a Spanish vice but any country can fall sick with it. Dominance of males over females seems to be one of the symptoms. Before a revolution can take place, the population must loose faith in both the police and the courts. High taxation is important and so is inflation of the currency and the ratio of the productive to those on the public payroll. But that's old hat; everybody knows that a country is on the skids when its income and outgo get out of balance and stay that way - even though there are always endless attempts to wish it way by legislation. But I started looking for little signs and what some call silly-season symptoms. I want to mention one of the obvious symptoms: Violence. Muggings. Sniping. Arson. Bombing. Terrorism of any sort. Riots of course - but I suspect that little incidents of violence, pecking way at people day after day, damage a culture even more than riots that flare up and then die down. Oh, conscription and slavery and arbitrary compulsion of all sorts and imprisonment without bail and without speedy trial - but those things are obvious; all the histories list them. I think you have missed the most alarming symptom of all. This one I shall tell you. But go back and search for it. Examine it. Sick cultures show a complex of symptoms as you have named... But a dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. Lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than a riot. This symptom is especially serious in that an individual displaying it never thinks of it as a sign of ill health but as proof of his/her strength. Look for it. Study it. It is too late to save this culture - this worldwide culture, not just the freak show here in California. Therefore we must now prepare the monasteries for the coming Dark Age. Electronic records are too fragile; we must again have books, of stable inks and resistant paper. Friday & Dr. Baldwin in "Friday" by Robert A Heinlein ---- Also... Why I personally will NOT vote my religious choices into law: "It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics." - Robert A Heinlein That and that I've lived in religious states. It always blows my mind that the same people clamoring for democracy in the middle easy, and and end to the caliphate and religious tyranny in other nations are the same people clamoring to have our own nation turned into a religious state. Q

Actually... I've always wondered about that. Sooooooooooooooooo much of the OT/NT was taken out or altered in the King James Version (ESP anything having to do with women), and so much has been mistranslated over the years, or is open for debate. A good friend of mine is a Classicist. She specializes in Ancient Greek. Since there was no spacing in Ancient Greek, there are a lot of passages in the first translation of the Bible that the translators simply chose option A, instead of option B. (like the way to God is through me, rather than the way to god is through yourself) Anyhow... Point being... Whenever something is pointed out as "not in the bible" I wonder if that's really true, or simply not in our version of it. Also, one of the pretty cool things about having a living prophet. Q

With the lemonade springs, where the bluebird sings, by the soda water fountain? I'm thinking of every great immigrant influx I can... And am not coming up with the one you're thinking of? In general, people pack up into language hubs / neighborhoods... Continue to speak their native language, are treated badly, and it's only their children who become fluent in Emglish and MAY leave the old neighborhood. Whether that's 5 Points, Little Italy, ChinaTown, etc. Q

Ha! Down south, there's an "out" called BHH. You can say the meanest, nastiest, most horrible things about a person, then add Bless Her Heart, or Bless His Heart at the end of it... And it *poof* erases how completely inappropriate and awful what one said. Or start at the beginning, if you want others to join in your rant. It's reserved for worse than gossip, though. Pure muckraking.

Yeah... I try and explain Asian Grandparents + Boundaries = Blank stare and blinking To my friends (and non-Oriental family) from time to time. I just get more blank stares and blinking. Can't win for losing! (Course, it's also pretty awesome) Q

Not even fancy dress / costumery? :eek:Nooooooooooooooooooo

Ha! I think Talisyn may have just ferreted out the truth of the matter.

'Allo! Welcome! Q

I used to LOVE our corduroy couch. Because I loved the lines in made on our skin from sitting on it, and laying on it was even better... Lines on our faces!!! My mom grew to despise, it, though. Possibly for the same reason. Q