Adomini22

Ok, so I am going to go slowly, one step at a time..... 1) I jumped the gun on the penal-substitution... I saw "substitution" and immediatly opened my mouth. I apologize. Baptisms for the dead is not penal substitution. It involves a form of substitution, but not penal. That was the "link" in my head that made me spout about it in the first place. (insert foot in mouth) 2) I said in my previous post "that Jesus suffered so we dont suffer if we repent." It was replied with "Not so. D&C 19 doesn't say, "I suffered your punishments in your place so you don't have to if you repent." What Christ says in D&C 19 is that he suffered in the process of redeeming us, and that if we don't repent we must suffer too. He doesn't say we will suffer what he suffered. If you believe that, then you believe that all unrepentant souls must bleed from every pore." From what I understand.... he suffered the Spirit leaving him, which process, among others, led him to bleed from every poor. Do I believe we all will bleed like that? No. I am not God, so I wouldnt know... but will we suffer the departure of the spirit if we dont repent? Yes. Like he did? Yes. The spirit of God doesnt dwell in unholy places, temples,etc. So, if we sin, we are unclean, and suffer the departure of the spirit. If we dont ever repent, we will suffer what Jesus did...the departure of the Spirit. Is that suffering? Yes. Below is the D&C 19 as it stands with verse 17 having CK's inserts in them. 16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; 17 But if they would not repent they must suffer [separation from the Father] even as I [suffered separation from the Father on the cross]; 18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink....' 3) Last post was written this, regarding Baptisms for the dead: "Ordinances aren't about paying Justice, or complying with Justice. Ordinances are about voluntarily coming to God, demonstrating our submission, and qualifying for spiritual rebirth. That's vicarious proxy, and that's the principle upon which ordinances for the dead work." Ordinances arent about paying Justice? How about the law, then? It is written that unless a man is born of water (baptism) and fire/spirit(holy ghost), he cannont inherit the kingdom of heaven. This was so important, even our own Savior HAD to do it. Now, those that did not have the chance....... and we give them that chance by doing it for them (this is a form of substitution), the law is met and kept on their behalf, regarding baptism and gift of Holy Ghost. (Of course, they need to be faithful...) I dont see how this could be viewed as not having to do with complying with justice. A law was met and kept via proxy aka form of substitution.

"I never claimed that the bible is clear about what baptism for the dead is all about or clear about the reality or correct understanding of pre-existence. I am only pointing out that your statement of silence is false. In fact, if 1 Cor 15:29 does not say anything about baptising of the dead, preytell what does it say when it says that the dead are baptised?" Well said, Snow. I would like to hear the response on this one...

Thats hot......wait, I mean,......that is too funny.

It was a good video...... well made...

CK said above.. "2.) His penal-substitution theory further requires the assumption that Justice's demands are that someone, anyone, must receive a punishment when a law is broken, and it doesn't have to be the offender who suffers the punishment. This is an error. Justice is predicated on the Law of the Harvest: Reap what you sow. Justice doesn't want just anyone to go to jail when there is a bank robbery. Justice demands that the bank robber go to jail or reap what he has sown by his criminal acts. Alma 34 explains clearly that a Just law does not transfer the punishment from a guilty person to an innocent person. That is robbing justice, not paying it or satisfying it." It is said that Christ suffered for our sins so that we would not suffer if we repent. That is penal-substitution. Also, on another principle....baptisms for the dead. That is a form of penal-substitution. Law must be met. Justice must be met.

Tiancum, he isnt debating about living oracles. He really isnt saying that it didnt happen... he is just saying, why, what, where, how, what for....etc. His question is legit. Scriptural reference is a bit vague, so he was asking the "why" about suffering in Gethsemane, ........

Let me take a stab at it. Gethsemane happened so Christ could say that he experienced all things, the effects, pains,etc of his people. The suffering in the garden was different from the suffering on the cross, but both were necessary in order that Christ could know and understand.... there is a scripture saying such. How does it affect our remission of sins? well, jesus, now knowing what we could go thru if we dont repent, can say to the Father, " Hey, I plead on behalf of this person to come back to your presence. I suffered all that they could suffer, but if they dont have to suffer if they repent. I paid the price of justice. It was paid. " Gethsemane was necessary for the remission of sins to take place. It was loosing the bands of justice on us, if we repent. That is the answer to your question. Thru Gethsemane, Jesus is our Advocate to the Father. If anything else, CK, it was knowledge first, so justice could be paid. Making sense? How could Jesus be our Advocate without knowing all the trials and sufferings of his people? How could true justice be paid?

I dont know, CK. Gethsemane was certainly something that was different from the cross, regarding suffering. My thoughts........had Jesus bled from every pore, wouldnt his garments be red? Wouldnt someone take a first look at him and be a little shocked at what they saw? Unless the angels presence had something to do with it..... I think Gethsemane started the process of the atonement. Someone earlier hit it on the nose. Christ had to suffer like that to understand our infirmities. My belief alone. Christ was perfect, hence he did all that was necessary.

Hey, isnt there a place where you can download whole books of scripture, not just one chapter a day? Like, PDF format, or something....???

Ck, interesting posts. I look forward to seeing the replies tomorrow. Isnt there an experience where a member of the 12 or a modern day prophet sees Christ in Getsemane? I have read of such an experience in the Ensign a long time ago. Because while you are right about the lack of canon on the subject, I think modern day prophets uphold the intial belief. Of course, any response of mine to your threads requires time and preparation. I hope no one closes this thread for a while, since we are discussing essential doctrine.

How can that be? In that case wouldnt you feel hungry and thirsty too?? That does sound like hell to me! You mean Jesus eats and so does God? Um...... yeah. They were once human, so I would assume so. I dont know their biological makeup, so I dont know if they need to.... then again, before the fall, adam and eve ate. God told them so. So eating was known before the plan started, per se. Also..... No unclean thing can dwell with god, so cigarettes, tobacco, caffeine, etc, unnatural addictives.... yeah, they arent there in heaven.

This is true.....and every tongue shall confess.........

Yeah, it makes me pause and think about some of the notions I had believed on before. I guess faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and repentance are eternal, and are needed after this life. How far past our mortality, I am not sure. Isnt there a passage that thru faith on His name, worlds were created, or something like that? My memory is a bit vague. I will have to look that up to see if there is a scripture like that. If so, it may mean that even after our judgement...........no, wait, we would see Jesus at our Judgement, so is faith needed afterwards? Am I sounding too confusing here? Help me out....

Well said. Good thread.

I agree with you. That makes me think alot. I guess that we will only see them when we are judged, because we will see God the Father and Jesus at our final judgement, yes? If not until then, that would be kinda scary for some people. They will never believe until their final judgement ,and by then it would be too late. hmmmm... that makes me think some more.....

There is a bit more to it, but you are right. Perdition is attained thru knowledge first. Not ignorance.

Thats kind of funny, only because its partially true.

Sounds like it, huh? Thats funny....

Well, moderate drinking is moderate. So Maureen is actually right on that point. But long term? I dont think it is a big plus. I mean, ............... well, we all know the effects of it if it gets out of hand.

Whatever happens, I doubt it would be good.

Main reason is to take the sacrament, renew covenants, and be uplifted and taught at the same time. A prophet long ago said that the sacrament is the most important part, but I see benefits in grouping together to be taught and feel the spirit.

Long post, man. However, I am glad you posted it. You are 100% right regarding such, in my opinion.

That is a good question. Of course, its likely that the trolls would differ with us. I dont know if naming them on a thread is a wise one. I think most recognize trolls, but naming them in public would make this site look bad in a sense. My opinion only.

Nice post. If more are going to Outer Darkness than we think, then thats kind of scary. It is said that you are judged after what you know, so if they KNOW and are on their way to OD.... um... so be it...

We are so off topic.... he he