sgallan

I am just the sort of person who views these things for what they are, and the experiences I derive with the them, without adding anything else to it. But many many people have your view and I have surely have no issues with that.

Whatever the case, I know that you're a great dad to your daughter, I can tell by the way you talk about her. Just don't get overly-confident that you know all the best ways to do everything. As a fellow parent, I know it's important to always re-assess. I re-assess all of the time. It's something I've learned in dealing with countless kids over the years. But this kid already a sense of spirituality. The same kind I have. We both get excited everytime we see Half Dome and Yosemite pictures.... or when we are there. The amazing spectical of Rewood National Park, and it's the ocean, of the Tide Pools - with all of it's little critters, of long hikes through amazing old growth forests. Of our vistit to Crater Lake with twenty feet of snow when it's 85 out in June, and that amazing blue lake, the sheer power of rapids, the wonderment of the underwater world when we go Scuba Diving, these things and much more are how I feed my spirituality and how I teach her. There is a sense of wonderment and awe in these things. We don't need to look to the supernatural to find it..... it is all around us. It is in what we see when we look into the cosmo's, it is what we see when look in a microscope. Or do an experiment. Or when I explain how the Himalayas were made. Nature and learning is full of richness and variety that we'll not even come close to discovering in a lifetime of discovery. These things are enough to feed the spirit, and keep us endlessly interested and busy without having to look outside of what is already there.

Since I am often asked what I stand for, or believe in, the below works really well for me. A Statement of Principles..... We are committed to the application of reason and science to the understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems. We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence and to seek to explain the world in supernatural terms. We believe that scientific discovery and technology can contribute to the betterment of human life. We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian elites and repressive majorities. We are committed to the principle of the separation of church and state. We cultivate the arts of negotiation and compromise as a means of resolving differences and achieving mutual understanding. We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and with eliminating discrimination and intolerance. We believe in supporting the disadvantaged and the handicapped so that they will be able to help themselves. We attempt to transcend divisive loyalties based on race, religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of humanity. We want to protect and enhance the earth, to preserve it for future generations, and to avoid inflicting needless suffering on other species. We believe in enjoying life here and now and in developing our creative talents to their fullest. We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence. We respect the right to privacy. Mature adults should be allowed to fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, to exercise reproductive freedom, to have access to comprehensive and informed health-care, and to die with dignity. We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity, honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences. We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We want to nourish reason and compassion. We are engaged by the arts no less than by the sciences. We are citizens of the universe and are excited by discoveries still to be made in the cosmos. We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking. We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies and philosophies of despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others. We believe in optimism rather than pessimism, hope rather than despair, learning in the place of dogma, truth instead of ignorance, joy rather than guilt or sin, tolerance in the place of fear, love instead of hatred, compassion over selfishness, beauty instead of ugliness, and reason rather than blind faith or irrationality. We believe in the fullest realization of the best and noblest that we are capable of as human beings.

When you get a little time, could you please explain how science is not your religion? I like to follow it. I find it interesting. But I'm not a scientist. I don't worship it.... I just use it.... like right this very second.... I am using it. I think about the closest thing I have to a "religion" is teaching and coaching and working to improve/teach some of my fellow human beings. I say this because I teach distance education in college (most of my students are incarcerated), substitute teach K-12, and volunteer coach about 20 hours or more a week. Also, maybe you would like to explain how science has proven that there is no God? It is impossible to prove there is no God. But, if I were to tell you I have an invisible Dragon that lives in my garage...... can you disprove it? You can't.... it is not possible. I'm hoping that you will paraphrase what Carl is saying, because I'm to cheap, with my time and money, to read the book. The Dragon analogy is something I use a lot and borrowed from Sagan. My Dragon is cooler than his. :) In humility, I am willing to listen to anything you have to say. But I have to warn you, listening is not the same as agreeing with you (I sometimes have to explain that to my loving Wife, who sometimes feels that I'm not listening). awaiting your inlightenment I'm not looking for converts. If your faith works for you and your family then I would recommend you keep it. I am only a doting single dad raising my child with my values in a manner that I see as best for her development as a human being.

Why try to persuade your daughter that there is no higher power? I am just going to present her with why I don't believe. Which is a lot of what is in the Demon-Haunted world. My general opinion is..... if you can believe in God, then it isn't too far to go to believe in any of the hundreds of myths and legends either. Given that she is already showing signs of being skilled in math and science, believing in the various myths and psudeosciences is counter productive to her overall education, as well as her desire to work in the science fields. Why not just encourage her to make up her own mind and respect the belief in God that she already has? She can make up her own mind anyhow. I am just going to present her with my arguments and the various facts. She will also be exposed the various religions, because they are an obvious aspect of history and social studies, but she won't get the "this religion is more special than that religion" lesson. And as always.... she is free to attend church. People and friends have given her things like religious tapes and even a pocket sized NT book. I don't mind. If she ends up believing as I do it will because I won the rational argument, and will have done so in a society made up of a majority of believers to influence her in anotther direction. I can't imagine growing up without a belief in an afterlife... it depressed the heck out of me as an adult when I lost my faith for a while! She has a kids faith in God a lot like she believed in Santa Claus. I suspect if she loses it early enough, without the indoctrination of religion, it won't be an issue like it was with you.

Why do you want your child to grow up with the belief that there is not God? For the same reason people who do believe in a certain god or religion raise their children to believe in God. I am raising my child to have similar values to what I have. Believing in a god or religion is not one of those values I find particularly constructive or useful in the manner I live my life. At the moment she still believes in God, something she got from my estranged wife, but would best be described as a deist. And her mom - the last I heard - was getting into new age (some call it occultist) stuff with a belief in a Higher Power. I am homeschooling my child though, and her mom isn't around much, so I am having her read "The Demon-Haunted World", by Carl Sagan. Though it is a little advanced for her.... it is this kind of philosophy of learning and living I teaching her. A description of the book.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World

Most here are aware that the majority of people end up embracing "the faith of our fathers." In other words, we go with what we grew up with. Which is what is my wish for my child as well. :)

The difference between that, and Texas and Oklahoma.... the two states I pass through prior to getting to Missouri...... is astonishing. It probably explains why Missouri isn't exactly a strong "Red" state like so much of the rest of the Bible belt is.

Yes, I'm back from my two week conference/vacation to the Bible Belt. We loaded up the SUV (so middle class--I know) and headed to Springfield and Branson Missouri. Springfield is a community where 50% of the residents are in a Baptist or a Pentecostal church on Sunday mornings, and another 30% are in some other Christian church. The most prominent Baptist group is the Bible Baptists--they think the Southern Baptists are liberal! Indeed, but Missouri is a pretty unusual state along these lines. There is no place in my various journeys across the country, carting my kid to wrestling events, that I have seen a place that has more Vegas type attractions, and HUGE adult bookstores, along with all the churches. On more than one off ramps there'd be a church or two on one side, and an adult bookstore or two or three on the other side, of the freeway. And if you needed a little ephreda (a truckers pick me up and precurser to methamphetimine), it was for sale in bulk at the local gas stations. I got a kick out the difference.

Hmm..... I better qualify what I just said. From a discussion board perspective you have every right to your views, and I respect that. I think they are probably the norm within the faith. I am in no way saying that I have it "out for you" in any way whatsoever. I am just suggesting, in a real world perspective, I have come across somebody who verbalized things like you do, in my house, and it wasn't pretty. Heck, my wife even left the room when he said what he said, becuase she knew it was about to hit the fan.

Boil, sweat, and stay trapped in the house until I can take it no more, and drive the 4-5 hours to somewhere cooler.

Nope. I am not. All people have value, even when they are wrong, but some beliefs are nothing but a load of crap. Do you think a false belief is every bit as valuable as the truth… the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Let me put it this way Ray...... I would never, ever, accept an invitation from you to either visit your Chapel, nor hear your message in my house. As a matter of fact, if you were to get in my face with such a message, in my house, there is a good chance you would get the boot in a very harsh and nasty way. And as a matter of record, the last time this house had a visit, from a member of this faith, from a person with your exact attitude (it's been about four years and people in that Ward still walk soft around me - it's a small town), they came off as extremely insulting.... especially to my then wife (still clean and sober and sweet). There were words, and if that particular person hadn't been of the health and age where I thought I might actually kill him, I think those words would have escalated. His partner was smart enough to get out of there post haste..... and no one has been back since. Is this the sort of thing you are intending to do? Do you REALLY consider this a constructive way to bring people to something you cherish?

Hmm. Who has that problem?. I have never said everyone else is wrong about everything. Just the truths they think they know because of what they were taught by people other than God. It's been my experience that religiously arrogant folks tend to chase off far more people from what they proclaim to want them to have, then they attract to their faith. It is as if those people are saying.... you are stupid, you have no value, your opinion doesn't count for crap, and you had better listen to me because next to God I am the way. Are you one of those people Ray?

That is a very circular comment Snow. So when exactly is enough.... enough? At what point do you think it crosses the line from having different values, to being hurtfully judgemental? Am I for example wrong, and/or hypocritical, when I look at contempt to what people with the religious values of the Taliban, do to their women...... the gentalia mutilation, beatings, and killings? Am I wrong in criticizing Al Queda for flying jets into buildings? Or is that just one of those..... they attacked me, so I fight back, and may the best fighter win.... type things? Where is the line drawn? Should it ever be drawn?

You saw that?? Dang it. And I was trying so hard to be subtle!!

BIG HUG!!!!! :) :) :)

Given that I try to remember that in general somebody being a Christian is a good thing (it has been a bit difficult to remember that)..... you are way more of what I consider a Christian than some of what I've seen on a couple of threads of late. It's a that others are sabotaging your efforts at showing the good values of Christianity.

Lindy - I could see what you said being interpeted the way that youngatheart took it. Though your explanation works for me. :)

The fool has said in his heart,“There is no God.” They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one. Always nice to know what some thiests really think about people like me. I suppose I should stop teaching, being a good single dad, and volunteering with kids, and instead get busy raping, pillaging, and partying. My bad. So much of that to do, and so little time.....

My seven year old daughter's Easter dress this spring was sleeveless. Not the kind with a thin strap over her shoulders. Just a nice, full length dress with no sleeves. On Easter Sunday one of the sisters who would never let her husband camp on Sunday said to my wife, "Do you think it's appropriate to let your daughter wear a sleeveless dress?" LOL..... I had to laugh. We are active day hikers. Up to 17 miles on a long hike and a 7-8 mile hike is nothing. When hiking I would sometimes lose my shirt. My then 5 year old, up until she was about an 9 year old, would lose her shirt too..... always a daddies girl doing what daddy did. Now at that age from the waist up there is no difference at all between boys and girls (still isn't for her yet). But heck, even the so-so religious people would take me to task on that one. It might even have happened on this board. I can only imagine what that lady would think of the likes of me. If she came upon us on the trial she'd probably stroke out. LOL PS - My little one is almost eleven now and doesn't do that anymore. It wasn't me that told her not too either. She figured it out all on her own. Kids aren't stupid, they can pick up on societal type constraints..... and she did just what I always told everybody in those debates she would do.

Hey Dr T - I appreciate that you got my point (I say this with no sarcasm). It is unusual to find someone who can read between the lines... so to speak. :)

You are saying that it is not ok to place "absolute rules" or our own persoal standard onto someone else. Is that correct? If it is, are you making that an absolute standars? My vote will go for the Taliban and/or Whabbi(sp) Islam. Their God says what they do is proper, and they have millions and millions of adherents. Who is to say they are wrong afterall?

The difference between the Taliban and myself is that I do not seek to force my will on anyone, and I also do not want anyone forcing their will on me. You could have saved yourself some time and just said the above. Because I really don't care all that much about what you, or any other person, religious or otherwise, with different values, thinks of me, as long as you don't attempt to force it on me. I like that there are different views..... the world would be kind of boring if we were all alike.

Is the acceptance that sin is normal and that vices are a good thing...these are examples of enlightened thinking in this day and age?! Heaven help us! Are you also equally as okay with religious sects, such as the Taliban, thinking the same thing about you, and some of your practices, as you are in condeming what you consider sin and vices. Or does it stop with what you consider sin and vice?

Snow has the advantage of being able to check ISP's....