sgallan

Oh mm..... is this board going to chase off those who annoy the regulars again?

Sgallan, I'll ask you the same question I asked Dror: Would you countenance our intelligence officers removing fingernails if doing so might save a city? Who decides what is torture or not torture? They have decided that brutalization followed by beheading is okay. Who is to say they are wrong? You? Why? "What if" questions, the various senarios, and the endless permutations, go both ways.

Hey, if you want to be come just like them then so be it. I don't really care. As a nation we've done some pretty horrible things in the past. What's a few more. I am on record - what with our high incarceration rates/treatment of our dissaffected/and so forth - as suggesting we are a pretty brutal nation of peoples ourselves. So if we want to be them..... I am cool with that. It's consistant. We would kinda lose the moral high ground though.

I really resent that charge but I think PC did a good job pointing out the intention I had in starting this thread. This has nothing to do with a pro-war in Iraq v. anti war in Iraq political stance. I am angry that there are organizations that seem quick to condemn (i.e. anything that happens at Gitmo or make a huge issue out of anything negative -- real or perceived -- that our military does) yet don't use much resources in questioning or jumping on the acts of our enemies. Shouldn't the United States be held to a higher standard than a bunch of terrorist thugs?

LOL.... the problem I have had with the Libertarian platform is the practicality of it. How do you implement such a program, in todays 24/7 media coverage world, given much of the social systems set up would also be taken out, and the many millions of people who would fall thru the cracks (and often die). That tranistion has never been addressed by either Libertarians nor those in the so-called Constitution party (the religious version and far less consistant version of libertarianism) They talk a good utopian game but don't seem to have a strategy to implement such things. I might add (though you probably know this)..... the Libertarians are both very liberal, and very conservative, at the same time. Besides the liberal stuff they advocate, they also advocate isolationism (closing the border by whatever means), no Government owned propert save that which is necessary for our defense. The elimination of all federal Government social and welfare programs. The abolition of any tax outside that to defend our borders. Many of these things are dear to the hearts of conservatives.

Ya know, other than than the obvious religious edict of using gods name in vain - and I don't to be polite - I have a hard time finding anything biblical against anything in english that people might consider profane. And it can get rather silly..... I have a p ussy cat. Cock fighting is illegal. I live near Parker Dam. D ick is a nickname for Richard. Need I go on.

Been a good year..... two national titles against girls, another state title against the boys and another one against girls. We are leaving for Oregon tomoorrow early for Western Regionals against the boys. It is the second largest kids tournament held in the nation. Reni got hurt last year but placed the year before. No givens though as this is one tough tournament with about half of the toughest boys in her class in the country being there. After the wrestling we are going to Crater Lake and Redwoods National Parks. Here is a recent picture from a the USA's national web site (Reni is in black)..... http://www.themat.com/specialevents/2006/bodybar/default.php Okay it didn't go to the picture. Reni is in the Saturday photo's, on the left hand side, second picture from the bottom - it takes about 15 seconds to load all the pictures.

I find it sad you are using their death for your own political purposes so quickly. It sorta makes you just like those you complain about.

You know what I hate? When someone said what I said, in far fewer words, and said it better! AARRGG!

Jesus comes as King there will be no separation of Church and State. Because true government and true religion cannot be separated. When we pray "thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." If there is no separation of Church and State in heaven then why do you champion separation of Church and State on earth and pretend to believe in Jesus Christ? Good government and good religion is not magic but is put together piece by piece by good people. That is an easy one. Okay, conceeding I am a non-believer lets just suppose that what you say about Jesus is true. Well then there is no seperation when Jesus returns because Jesus is here, in the flesh, making the direct calls in such a way that it is pretty obvious. There isn't much of a chance to argue the decisions. However, this Jesus you speak of is not here in anyway that you can prove. Many many people seem to have their views on what this Jesus wants, and they do not all agree. Many of these people for example would attempt to eliminate your faith as being a dangerous cult. And they would suceed because you would not have the protection of the state backed by the constitution. Those same people would incarcerate or kill me for my beliefs (I have the quotes from various evangelical 'leaders' to back that up). So basically without this Jesus being 'directly' in charge, without any dispute as to His nature, and his wants and desires, any possible theocracy would be fairly non-functional for those who are not part of the 'in' crowd. Which would include the LDS.

(and Constitutional amendments are so difficult, we're likely talking a 75% supermajority to build the will to pass one) As it should be. Even though the numbers of people who oppse gay marraige seem to average out at about 55-40 or so (polls are all over the place dependent on the wording and so on), the people who oppose ammending the constitution on such matters is usually a plurality, or within the margin of error of being a plurality. The consitution is important. People generally don't take ammending it lightly. Even something like desecrating the flag, which on the surface seems to be a pretty easy one to pass, doesn't pass ammendment must. Of the many amazing things the founding fathers did, making the constitution so hard to ammend may have been among the most important. Majorities have been known to take advantage of minorities in terrible ways. But in this hodge podge nation of immigrants and nationalities, getting 75% can often forestall such things being written into the constitution.

Is there no reasonable social consensus on marriage that would protect minorities while honoring the broad moral tradition of this nation? Must we chose between the two extremes of Sharia-type religious courts and Randian ojectivism, which allows no collective social standards at all? The meaning of my tongue in cheek reply is that I view what you were suggesting as potentially extreme as you view Sharia law. I am suggesting that perhaps you view my opinions, values, and morals, much in the same way many Muslims view your opinions, values, and morals.

when you are Baptized into the LDS Faith, it is recorded in Heaven. and because you simply want to "dismiss" the fact that you were baptized claiming that Heavenly Father through prayer told you to leave the church is false.you will for the remainder of your life be held accountable for choosing to walk away fromt he gospel. Well if this Heavenly Father (if somehow true) doesn't want me around because I ended up a non-believer, that works for me. I am not really all that interested in spending an eternity with such a diety. So it is a bit of a win-win situation. you have allowed yourself to be decieved by the prince of darkness I guess I am just a godless heathen then. There is no happiness or peace of mind except through obedience to the commandments of God. So the 30 hours a week I spend volunteering with kids.... I should just give it up. I should probably stop being a single dad too. Teaching inmates..... bad idea. Aw what the heck..... I might as well get in my car and drive off a cliff. Or maybe not. There is no salvation or eternal life except through acceptance of the gospel and living according to its teachings. Good - I didn't want to live for every anyhow. A half-hearted effort will not save us either. Instead, it will bring condemnation. The Lord has so declared in section 58 of the Doctrine and Covenants. (See D&C 58:29.) I sure hope so. Otherwise I might have to spend an eternity with a certain pharisee.

Everybody has a value system to be sure. But to suggest it is "just" brain power is a little simplistic IMO (especially since my brainpower is waning ). And I suspect you - because of some dysfunctionality in your family - seem to have a pretty one sided view of religious versus secular. Believer versus non-believer. I just (try) to look at people, not faith or labels. Some of the kindest most helpful people I know are both believers and non-believers. From a man named Mike Furches who ran an inner city church for years until it basically bankrupted him - and now he is starting up a cyber church (I am on the mailing list and it doesn't bother me in the least) still working like crazy to spread the word of God. To my dad who basically became an non-believer in Vietnam but whose value and work I mentioned on another thread. Basically we are just people. Some good, some bad, and mostly a gazillion variations of just that. I tend to think that putting people in a good or bad box, based on just a belief system, is sort of why we are in a couple of wars right now. And why so many people seem to dislike on another. I am sometimes as guilty of this as anyone.

Good post Dror, I enjoyed it a lot. :)

My dad is my hero. He is the guy you see skydiving into schools as Santa Claus. Or on his Harley making toy runs. Or sponsering the Young Marines. Or organizing a scholarship through whatever group he is giving his time too. Or any one of a number of things that has his house covered in thank you pictures and plaques. And there is more. It is family. He makes our big events when he can and always has. Usually he ends up being one of the volunteers helping out when he goes. He is the guy who helped drive and financed my daughters trip to nationals. He is the guy who puts on a water ski camp for family, and family friends, out of his house, and pocket every year. His is the house when one of the family is having problems and needs a place to live.... it's his house. And often that 'family' is by virtue of live-in, or mixed family marraiges. They are family just like any other to him. He has always been there for all of us. He has always been there for the community. He is the one who gave my brothers and I a zest for living and for helping others. His love and friendship is unconditional. You have problems, whether it be drugs, other legal things, or marraiges..... it doesn't matter. He may not like the behavior or situation but his hands will still be there to help. And it doesn't matter what religion you are, sexual orientation, background (he got me the job teaching mostly inmates), race, none of that, friendship and especially family is just that. That he does all of that - and taught me all of that - though he does it better - is what makes him my hero.

Reni is in training, so after I got up early to walk the dogs, I rousted her up to work out. Then we went out for breakfast with the rest of the day being spent doing a whole lot of nothing. That is a good thing. The next couple of weeks are going to be a whirlwind of activity.

Almost Humble - You just made the leap from problems in a marraige, and a guy who doesn't believe in a religion (and seems to want to be a bit of a jerk about it) to..... because he doesn't believe in religion he must therefore be an bad person by virtual of being a non-beleiver, because your dad was dysfunctional, until he turned it around by becoming a believer. Well let me counter with a story of a non-believer who became a single dad, by having his meth head wife (a god believer) arrested and booted, and who also spends viritually all of his time with either kids, with one of his jobs educating inmates so they don't do the revolving door thing. Let me also add another (jerk) story about the brother of this same man, who married a woman, took in her and her five kids, added on to his house for her. Then as a result of the marraige (not breaking the celibacy thing and all of that) she became active again in her faith (your faith), and no longer saw the use in be married to him. That female version of a jerk just up and left him with no explanation. Now do any of these stories, or the situation of the starter of this thread, mean that any one faith or belief system is all good, or all bad. Not at all. They are individual situations and life drama's. I am afraid that the longer they are around the negative views of their dad the more negative their views of church will be. Steflou - First, let me say that - having been through an awful late of late - I feel badly for your marital situation. It sounds like your husband is being a jerk. Having qualified let me add my views on the above sentence of yours. As a non-believer and non-religious person I am raising my child in a secular way. I am doing so in a majority Christian society. I would prefer she be a non-believer, perhaps a diest, or maybe one of the Eastern religions. But something I clearly understand is she will be influenced by more than just me. And she will make her own choices along these lines - even with my perhaps negative views of things religious. Even at age ten she is free to attend the church of her choice, or not to attend at all. Part of me being a parent is to educate and raise my child the best I can but still allow her to decide her own path in such things. Just my .02 cents. :)

Wow, what a bummer topic. It started with such potential and turned into a general slam fest between religious folk. I think I am better off just doing what I can in my own little secular way. If some think that I am an evil sinner whose gonna get it from god, then so be it.

1. If we're going to have gay marriages, what's next? Polygamy? 2. How would you regulate how many, or under what circumstances? 3. What if people set up group living arrangements for tax benefits, etc. 4. You know, government really shouldn't be in the business of approving or disapproving people's living arrangments, anyway. It ought to just revert to legalizing living partnerships. 5. Yeah, who's the government to say what's moral and what's "living in sin." I personally think we should go to Sharia law myself.....

The purpose of life is... To give more than to take, to 'live' life to it's fullest, to leave this place a little better for having been here, and to have a dang good time doing it.

Snow - What you did was send that thing to this boards version of purgatory in an arbitrary way. It is not just you, but the nature of this board to moderate in this way. It has been for a number of years. Many of us Veterans won't play on such boards, which is some of the reason the board is relatively slow. Thanks for the sentiments on my kid though. :) Ben - Thanks. The moderating thing is pretty arbitrary on this board. I mean I have done the board thing for years. I've moderated a couple of boards, including one now, so I know the drill. This board is arbitrary and even ridiculous in how it's moderated. It's been that way for years. That's the last I'll say on that! OtherwiseI was the typical HS stud who went to college, wrestled a year, got hurt in my second year, and given I was immature, just sort of drifted away. It is one of my regrets that I didn't do the full college thing and is probably why I picked up the sport again as an athlete at 36. I am too beat up to wrestle competitively anymore but did so for eight years until a couple of years ago. I still coach and roll around with the kids though. Reni has more potential then I did.

I see this board has sorta died out again. Hence the nature of overly moderated boards, with moderators who moderate based on power plays and personalities. Be that as it may, an update for any who know me, because I have been asked to do so from time to time.... Reni won a couple of girls national titles.... on in Michigan in the American style of wrestling, and one in the international style. She will probably win her 5th straight state against the boys on Saturday. I was coaching softball (along with the wrestling as always) but the league sort of fell apart. Reni is learning SCUBA at age 10 as well as a month away from testing for her Black Belt in Tae Kwan Do. We dive off of Catalina Island in June and again in August. I am substitute teaching and get about 4-days a week... I am the favorite sub at three different schools because I am good at it. One school uses me for a notorious 6th grad class because I can handle them (I go wrestling coach on them). Another uses me for their Junior High for the same reason. From grade 3 on the trouble makers don't like me and the good kids like me a lot.. as it should be. The little ones - K-2 - like me a lot. Probably because I just have a blast with the them... they are a lot of work, but so much fun. I am still teaching college adjunct distance ed.. I get about nine classes a year. The inmates like me because I actually read what they write and give feedback. It was 107 and humid today. Summer will be busy as always... Reni goes to a summer camp in the Colorado Springs area.... she will do the horse camp part of it. Her and I will go to Klamath Falls Oregon for a huge regional wrestling tournament. After that we will hang around for a few days and check out Crater Lake National Park. Anyhow, busy as always. Take care. :-)

atheism 83% Paganism 54% Judaism 50% agnosticism 50% Buddhism 33% Christianity 25% Islam 25% Satanism 21% Hinduism 0%

Hi Ray - Since I do lurk it would rude not to acknowledge reading your post. I don't have much to say though as it might get moderated by a moderator with a god complex.... so I won't waste my time. Take care. :)