char713

I've been a member of the LDS church my whole life, and I didn't get an answer the first several times that I asked. Turns out I wasn't ready to hear the answer, because I needed to learn how it was that I myself recognized the Spirit. And it wasn't any of the ways my parents or teachers said that they recognized it. It took me a while to separate my expectations from what I was actually experiencing, and it ultimately started falling into place once I diligently yet humbly making the gospel a part of my every day, moment to moment existence. I don't know if this helps, but I hope you find the answers you're searching for soon. 
 
And welcome to the forum!

A big part of why you are getting what you feel are non-responses is because the garment is sacred and we ought not discuss it so publicly. The temple is the best place to learn, so that is why that had been suggested to you. There is very little anyone can say on the matter beyond expressing their faith that obedience will make things work out in the end, and wearing the garment is an act of obedience.

I still pay my tithing but I am inactive. Have been for quite some time. My reason is that I simply do not belong, many members have gone out of their way to remind me of that fact, and the benefits of regular attendance have never yet outweighed the benefits of staying at home whilst still doing everything else I ought to be doing. 

I still pay my tithing but I am inactive. Have been for quite some time. My reason is that I simply do not belong, many members have gone out of their way to remind me of that fact, and the benefits of regular attendance have never yet outweighed the benefits of staying at home whilst still doing everything else I ought to be doing. 

The church is not "bottom line" a social organization. But it is still one component. No man is an island.
 
...And if the other person on your island is doing their upmost to make your life miserable then you have two choices. You can ignore it, develop a skin of mithril, and stick around on the beautiful island that is sufficient to provide for your every need. Or you can find another way to survive.. whether it's by searching for another nearby island or going on the offensive against those who say "this island ain't big enough for the two of us." The first is the choice of a saint, the second the choice of a human. The Church is for both types of people.

No. But you must understand that LDS spouses of porn addicts are caught between a couple of really tough "what ifs." On the one hand we are told in the scriptures that if a man looks on a woman to lust after her he has already committed adultery in his heart (sorry can't remember the reference for that off the top..) So many spouses live in dread that their spouse's addiction will progress to that point.  But on the other hand we are told that a large percentage of men in the church are currently entrenched in addiction to pornography, and I haven't heard or read of the statistics about women but we know there are many women who struggle with it as well. So is it better to live with someone you want to fully trust but cannot, to not condone but still tolerate (by not seeking divorce) behavior that is all-but adultery (and if left unchecked can often lead to that kind of acting out, even if it is just online but still "with" another person) and leave your children at risk too? Or is it better to try your luck on a new start and hope that your next spouse is more honest and worthy in this aspect? The statistics sure aren't great. So what is better, not having a spouse or not being able to trust your spouse or depend on them as a Priesthood holder and someone who can at least attend the temple with a clear conscience? At what point is being married for the sake of fulfilling a commandment more important than your own emotional/mental wellbeing? It is not the non-addict's fault that their spouse is where they are, so while they ought to do their best to support their husband/wife and attempt to bear their burdens, at some point it may become nothing more than self-punishment to keep trying, praying, and aching for things to change. 

What do you want me to say? What would you consider discussion? Oh, yeah I'm totally a harshly critical, self-centered, cold and haughty person? I totally put people down on here all the time, I love to show off my superior gospel knowledge, I go looking for a fight in every thread, and don't bother to carefully read people's posts before I respond? Nope, not gonna happen. That's the opposite of how I operate here and in all my other online discussions. 
 
But you want me to do better. So.. here goes. Some people are jerks, some of those jerks are LDS. In my experience, there are a lot of LDS jerks in wards in Utah. Why might this be? Is it that I'm only imagining this because I am overly sensitive? Not likely, I spent my high school and college years in a ward that was pretty good at ridiculing those who didn't meet their standards. Got my thick skin years ago. But it's worse in Utah, at least in my experience and the experience of most of my former high school peers, and all of my many cousins who attended college in Utah and began to put down roots here. And nevermind me.. how about the experiences of enough other people that the term was ever able to have about and to be so widely understood? I don't think the burden of proof is on me here. A few of you have a real problem with the term and have taken our use of it quite personally. If that's because you feel equally repulsed by all over-generalizations then okay, more power to you I guess. If its because you live in Utah and love it, then good for you, you're one of the lucky ones. I haven't met any of the users here in person but I'm quite certain from the past several months of participation and lurking on this forum that at least a couple of you are the exact definition of the term you so despise. Maybe not in real life, but then that hardly makes it better does it? If you're allowing all of your sanctimonious frustration to come out online against other strangers because its a safe, anonymous place to do so? So you try to refute the experience, the frustration and sometimes hurt, by saying that it is all imagined or blown way out of proportion. Or that it is borne of oversensitivity, bigotry, or best of all, hypocrisy. See why it's so hard to have a discussion? No ones feelings or experience can count for anything unless they are approved of by Their Eminences. Otherwise the thread will be drowned in criticism and rebukes.. oh and their hurt feelings. The only feelings that apparently need no justification or explanation around here. 

The difference between the desirable and undesirable LDS person, whether in Utah or not, is that one group has faults that could very well be labeled, but they are not faults that go on the offensive against their fellow Saints. They are faults that the person struggles with privately and if they do hurt or disadvantage others it is almost always inadvertent, and out of something not done rather than done. Ommission rather than commission. A "Utah Mormon" as I see it is one who does not have the tact or sensitivity to sometimes keep their great wisdom and righteousness to themselves. These are they who harshly verbally attack and rebuke others about the way they think or feel, believing all the while that they are only instructing or sharing their testimony. 

So no one is ever to use labeling terms of any kind, ever? So I am a hypocrite if I tell a visiting friend to my ward, "don't worry about what so-and-so might say or do while we're at church, he's always been unkind to me." Because by using the term Utah Mormon, it is simply a way of collecting all of the terms like cold, insensitive, haughty, self-centered, harshly critical, etc. under one easy umbrella term that most people may not like, but they do recognize what it means. I have the ability to recognize when someone is this way because I am not. I grew up in congregations that were incredibly welcoming and full of both good and kind people who loved unconditionally. But I'm supposed to keep that ability to judge and self-preserve completely to myself.. or better yet, never even have the thought. They can go on being jerks, because gosh darnit, they sure are righteous jerks. 

What do you want me to say? What would you consider discussion? Oh, yeah I'm totally a harshly critical, self-centered, cold and haughty person? I totally put people down on here all the time, I love to show off my superior gospel knowledge, I go looking for a fight in every thread, and don't bother to carefully read people's posts before I respond? Nope, not gonna happen. That's the opposite of how I operate here and in all my other online discussions. 
 
But you want me to do better. So.. here goes. Some people are jerks, some of those jerks are LDS. In my experience, there are a lot of LDS jerks in wards in Utah. Why might this be? Is it that I'm only imagining this because I am overly sensitive? Not likely, I spent my high school and college years in a ward that was pretty good at ridiculing those who didn't meet their standards. Got my thick skin years ago. But it's worse in Utah, at least in my experience and the experience of most of my former high school peers, and all of my many cousins who attended college in Utah and began to put down roots here. And nevermind me.. how about the experiences of enough other people that the term was ever able to have about and to be so widely understood? I don't think the burden of proof is on me here. A few of you have a real problem with the term and have taken our use of it quite personally. If that's because you feel equally repulsed by all over-generalizations then okay, more power to you I guess. If its because you live in Utah and love it, then good for you, you're one of the lucky ones. I haven't met any of the users here in person but I'm quite certain from the past several months of participation and lurking on this forum that at least a couple of you are the exact definition of the term you so despise. Maybe not in real life, but then that hardly makes it better does it? If you're allowing all of your sanctimonious frustration to come out online against other strangers because its a safe, anonymous place to do so? So you try to refute the experience, the frustration and sometimes hurt, by saying that it is all imagined or blown way out of proportion. Or that it is borne of oversensitivity, bigotry, or best of all, hypocrisy. See why it's so hard to have a discussion? No ones feelings or experience can count for anything unless they are approved of by Their Eminences. Otherwise the thread will be drowned in criticism and rebukes.. oh and their hurt feelings. The only feelings that apparently need no justification or explanation around here. 

So no one is ever to use labeling terms of any kind, ever? So I am a hypocrite if I tell a visiting friend to my ward, "don't worry about what so-and-so might say or do while we're at church, he's always been unkind to me." Because by using the term Utah Mormon, it is simply a way of collecting all of the terms like cold, insensitive, haughty, self-centered, harshly critical, etc. under one easy umbrella term that most people may not like, but they do recognize what it means. I have the ability to recognize when someone is this way because I am not. I grew up in congregations that were incredibly welcoming and full of both good and kind people who loved unconditionally. But I'm supposed to keep that ability to judge and self-preserve completely to myself.. or better yet, never even have the thought. They can go on being jerks, because gosh darnit, they sure are righteous jerks. 

I'm really thinking that for the health and wellbeing of everyone on these forums, you and I might consider refraining from responding to each other's posts....
 
1. In order to consider how one might serve a ward, one must first make a judgment about that ward and its needs. Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
 
2. Your denial does not negate the veracity of my claim. In fact, it reinforces it.
 
3. Too often non-Mormons here in Utah have been offended and alienated by some of our members who will not allow their children to be friends with children of other faiths.
 
"Utah Mormon" is a derogatory term used to describe an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who is snobbish, cliquish, holier-than-thou, hypocritical, or any number of other sins of holy vanity. While it's almost certain that the term developed because these traits were especially common among members of the church living in Utah, not all members of the church living in Utah exhibit these traits nor are these traits exclusive to members of the church living in Utah.

Interesting, but not that surprising, how this has devolved from a bit of venting, rightfully, about a sterotype that in at least a few people's experience has been proven to be true.... to a few people who have chosen to react oversensitively themselves, condemning the OP and the original opinion for reeking of oversensitivity and prejudice. And then finally it has been insinuated that the OP might be a liar and might try to hide "evidence" of his dislike of the negative culture in which he now finds himself. 
 
Nothing here has changed my mind. People can be excellent Saints and scholars of the gospel, and yet still be deeply unpleasant people.

I have said this in other threads recently, I think. But I grew up moving around a lot and lived in mostly military wards and branches. So I know what it is like to have the ward become your surrogate family, and how effortless that becomes when you actually treat people as if they might need you as much as you need them. Our first long-term ward in the states was a real culture shock - very, very clique-ish, very closed off, very judgemental and quite outspokenly so. It didn't help that our family did homeschooling at the time. But that is nothing compared to our experience here in Utah. 
 
I have just lived in two wards here, for two years in one and three in the other. But I have the experiences of my many cousins and college friends to go off of as well. My cousins grew up stateside, in wards very similar to the one I previously mentioned.. fairly average I guess. They have all mentioned the difference they felt during their time in Utah, and all of them expressed a fervent wish to not stay here too long and put down roots. Even my high school peers who were incredibly gung-ho about attending BYU and living in Provo for the rest of their lives got the heck outta' there as soon as they could. The main theme I heard from their facebook and blog posts about life in Utah was complacency.. and worries about becoming complacent themselves. I'm not just making assumptions based on my own admittedly limited experience and observations. 

Lol dang totally didn't recognize him.... (tho to be fair i generally only recognize him when he's singing)

I recently moved to southern Utah with a bit of fear and trepidation.  The reason was something my dad always used to say:  "Utah Mormons are the worst kind."  He said this many times as I grew up.  I've lived in three different countries and I was welcomed in every single ward.  I was asked to introduce myself and someone always said hello. 
 
Seven weeks ago, I moved from Australia to small town in southern Utah and the ward fulfilled my dad's saying.  If I had been an investigator looking into the church, I would have walked out and never returned.  Not one single person introduced themselves to me and I was virtually ignored.  I wasn't asked to introduce myself and although my records have been received, my family has not been read into the ward.  The Elder's Quorum President has yet to introduce himself and shake my hand.  The same goes for the rest of the quorum. 
 
I got to looking at the ward directory and I noticed that there are 3 or 4 prominent families that make up a sizeable part of the ward.  They all associate with each other, but no one else.  There are a few other families that have moved in during the past couple years and they, too, are ignored.  I began to understand why my dad said that Utah Mormons were the worst kind.  I guess that unless you were born into the ward, you are an interloper. 

I'm glad he is back with his wife, she died 20 years ago. 

I'm glad he is back with his wife, she died 20 years ago. 

I'm glad he is back with his wife, she died 20 years ago. 

We save money in lots of ways, but the biggest one - living in a tiny (<500 sq ft) apartment for 3.5 years (by the time we move out next spring) is not at all my favorite. 
 
The ones I do like are:
 
I never run the clothes dryer. The cheapest we can find one around here is $1.50 per load for 45 minutes. So I air-dry everything on racks at home. I have our laundry day schedule down to a science so I can run all our clothes at once, bedding and towels another day, and everything else midweek when necessary. It has saved us at least $15 a month for the past three years. Not a lot, but it pays for our cheap date nights. And I hate waiting around for the machines to finish anyway.
 
I have never had a professional manicure or pedicure. What a ridiculous thing to pay for. I also only get my hair cut professionally twice a year. And I have never paid for any other "beauty" services of any kind. All of these things can be done at home, so I do. 
 
We haven't purchased any kind of beef (or any meat really besides chicken and fish) in four years. If we get a hankering for red meat, we go to a restaurant. But that doesn't happen often. 
 
My husband works for the company where he gets all of his entertainment and tech gadgets from. Major bucks saved. 
 
We very rarely go to the movie theater on a night other than Discount Tuesday. $5 a ticket, love it. 
 
And we just have our one vehicle, the car that my husband bought and paid off while in high school. It's got a lot of miles on it, we know a big change will be coming any day, but we are grateful to have never had a car payment our whole marriage thus far. 

I've never lived in a Ward that split while I was there, but I know there are a lot of less than pleasant things that come of it. One thing to consider though, is what it will mean for any people who move in to the ward over the next several months. I would have had a much more miserable time in YW than I did if that ward had not split just before we joined it back in 2001. The families of the youth had all lived in the area for decades, to say they behaved as a clique was putting it very mildly. We had a hard time making a place for ourselves but it would have been nearly impossible had the other youth not been compelled to consider new relationships. Being jolted out of your comfort zone is never a fun time, but it will certainly make a new ward stronger. 

potential put into action

Oh, I agree. Most of my skirts are high-waisted. It's just the pants (some cuts, not all) that are the problem. Jeans are the worst for it, the fabric isn't that forgiving of the complicated and highly-varied waist to hip ratios found on women, nevermind hip to thigh, waist to rear, etc. 

Grateful that I never shop at places that focus too heavily at being trendy. High-waist jeans look just okay on some people, GOOD on no one.

Getting a head start on learning math, because I know I'm gonna need it later on and am going to need a few remedial courses before I'm resurrected. I figure once I am unhampered by our many unpleasant earthly cares I might actually have a fighting chance.