Amillia

I remember that one well. I also remember when the General Young women's president asked all Young Women's presidents to stop teaching it. I heard that analogy just this year in a Gospel Doctrine Class.

It will be agreeing with the Lord that will count in the end. 2 Timothy 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto bfables. Dear Amillia, I am about as "orthodox" LDS as they can possibly come. I dont know how old you are, I am 48 yrs old, have served in 3 Bishopric's and everything else on the ward level....have been active...have attended my fair share of Regional meetings with Apostles etc....and I have never, ever in my entire experience in the Church have heard anything remotely resembling what it is you are espousing. The key that this was a false doctrine was when you made the comment that you and your SP agreed that these "doctrines" are not taught openly but secretly or only to those who could "accept and understand" the deeper meaning (I know I paraphrased that badly, I am sorry) There are no secret doctrines within the Church. The Temple ordinances are for all that desire to receive them. Its situations like what you are presenting here that the First Presidency is so adamant about sticking to the basics of the gospel...and not allow ourselves to get caught up into "gospel hobbies" as it were. The doctrine you are putting forth here is false. It does not ring true to my spirit..nor does it agree with scriptures or any teaching or address that I have ever read or heard. I think what we are trying to get you to see is that this is your personal opinion...and thats fine, but do not put it forward as official LDS doctrine because it certainly is not. I never said 'secret', as I never said 'second chance' and I really don't find it possible to even discuss things with you when you constantly put words and ideas into my mouth I have never uttered or espoused. NO matter how many times I have tried to get you to understand this, you continue on. I wonder how your people you have lead, have dealt with this bad habit ofyours.

But that's just it. He did give him an answer. If he lived till he was 85, he would see Him! He did receive an answer, but it was qualified by an IF, so it wasn't absolute.

No, Im not kidding. Tell me why God would say 2000 years ago that no man, not even the angels in heaven, knows the time of the 2nd coming. And then would turn around and tell joseph smith that if he lived until 1890-91, he would see Him? He didn't say 'time' ~ he said day or hour. Knowing the year based upon an <span style=\'color:red\'>IF which He knew wouldn't happen ~ isn't the same thing at all.

Curvette, I appreciate your concern about what I believe, but I have sat with high people in high places and discussed these doctrines, not to mention reading books like the NT commentary which quoted prophets. I really don't think I have it wrong, Unless, the apostles and prophets have no knowledge or firm grasp of the doctrines they have put forth. I do remember that President Kimball disagreed with President Smith on this issue, but not by much. Like I said before ~ it isn't something they like to disclose because of it's far reaching issues. I just wonder why my trying to convince Randy of the proposition that all will return to the Father eventually, (which he claimed they wouldn't) turned into this discussion, which actually agrees in end results with Randy's ideas he was defending. I believe we will all reach the Celestial glory eventually. Randy doesn't. He believes that once we have been judge and received whatever glory, that that is the end of it, unless we are already in the Celestial glory. In my beginning posts, I was showing how really we all had a better chance than what was being put out. Now that I have disclosed what my leaders have told me over the years, I have been hammered. If one read all of the posts from beginning to end on this thread, (thoroughly) they would see just how rediculous this has gotten.

It will be agreeing with the Lord that will count in the end. 2 Timothy 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto bfables. No, as far as you are concerned, it will be agreeing with the wacky ideas of Amiliology. Although I'm no longer LDS, I once was, and I can tell you that you have a huge misunderstanding of a lot of their doctrines. Possibly, the problem is that you are listening to some in the church that claim to be speaking of the church's doctrine, when actually, they don't have a firm grasp of it. I guess that is one of the drawbacks of having laypeople in positions of authority. If I was still LDS, I would be irritated that you were misrepresenting my religion's beliefs, making it look foolish. However, now I could really care less. I find it humorous. Anyway, to the mods, Forget ex-mormon's posting here and scaring away investigators... I would be more worried about Amilia doing that... not just in this post, but many! And you have a firmer grasp of church doctrine than my stake president or the prophets?

It will be agreeing with the Lord that will count in the end.2 Timothy 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto bfables.

The promise is what good it is. There is a future even in Heaven. You know that an eternity is only 5 billion years or so, right? Well, there are keys given in the temple which give the power to move from one kingdom to the next as you progress ~ because there is progression even after this life, for everyone. The punishment for those who don't do what they should according to the knowledge given them is: They will be lagging a bit behind ~ and just as your married children aren't under your roof here, (hopefully) they won't be there either ~ if you are in a higher kingdom you will be able to visit them as often as you like ~ They just won't be able to pop in on you ~ :) Amillia, With all due repect, this is all speculation, even in the Mormon church. There is no church doctrine as to what exactly goes on in the hereafter with regard to each of these kingdoms. You hear so much contradictory stuff, even from GA's that there is no way to nail it down in terms of actual doctrine, so it is important, especially when talking to non-mormons to preface such remarks with "Now this is just my opinion, and not church doctrine". I'm not really reading all of the posts in this thread anymore, however I am pleased that Cal has finally put my mind at rest regarding 'the hereafter', that it is not Church Doctrine, but speculation...I have been asking for 'proof' of the Mormon view of the hereafter for a while now, and have not received any...Thank you Cal. You are asking people. Ask the Lord.

Didn't you hear on the news last night? They were claiming that they never stated that there was a end of the world thing happening. It was all our fault and the medias fault that we got that wrong impression.

Well, if God told me something, Im pretty sure I'd understand it. Whereas "God" told Smith something, and he was still left in the dark. If no man is to have the answer, then why did "God" give one? You have got to be kidding right? You know you have just closed the door on understanding.

I'm hoping you are right PD. I would love to see theprices go back down. We have a V-8 truck and if I am careful I only pay $20 a week to do all of my running around. I just have to be careful to not rev it up and blow out of the intersections when the light finally turns green, or try and go up all the hills here at 40 mph.

Paraphrasing the Apostle Paul: Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good (true?) and reject that which is bad (untrue?). If Paul thinks that one should look for at least SOME proof of things, why don't you, Amillia? And no, I don't think that Paul was only refering to subjective feelings of inspiration---by itself, it's too unreliable--people get inspired feelings of truth of too many things that are mutually exclusive-- For example, good Catholics get inspiration that THEIRS is the only true church. So who is right--inspiration ALONE doesn't cut it, you need rational analysis as well. You just slipped over my proof. My proof came from God, I did seek it ~ but not from men and things. God can give physical evidence. And when we are talking about truth, there are universal truths everyone in every religion can get a Godly response to, which doesn't prove or disprove their religion. However, when we are talking about specifics, there are Godly proofs which can be tangible as what Daniel experienced when he requested to eat what he had been taught to eat ~ strength. There is also the proof of inspiration which is followed by physical evidence. When I have been given inspiration to read the WofW while sick and a phrase in that texted is bolded, and I live that particular part through more inspiration and become well ~ I consider the WofW an inspired document. It tells me that JS was inspired when he wrote it. That is proof for me. It won't convince anyone else who doesn't try it. When they put out a thing like the first post of this thread did, it tells me that this person didn't get the proof like I did, and there by are telling on themsleves that they haven't received this inspiration, revelation, and proof.

You silly woman! I have only been criticized for the doctrines which were taught to me by my leaders!! Great Scot! What does that say about you people? Don't you listen to your leaders? Do you make up your own endings just to satisfy yourselves?

The thing that is funny here is that people who want proof of God, the truthfulness of the church, or the credibility of a prophet ~ are demanding it from 'things' instead of God. Those who already have the proof ~from God~ don't need this kind of stuff. I say ~ GO TO THE SOURCE! Ask God what He thinks, instead of asking people who aren't paid to convince you of anything!!! LOL All people prove, who try and prove that these things aren't true,is that they don't know God, and that they haven't received personal revelation from the real God. Their lack of 'inspired knowledge' is all they prove.

Right Amilia, I wish I could be JUST like you! Seriously though, that is the whole reason for the atonement - Jesus died on the cross so our sins would be forgiven. When we ask for forgiveness and live the way we believe is the right way, we have a 'clean slate'. The atonement doesn't replace the inheritence. It only takes away the sin. It was once demonstrated to me by a leader with two bottles and two bags of beads. One bag was full of white beads for good things we did, and one was full of black beads for what we did wrong/sins. ~ The two bottles were empty and represented our lives when we are born. He began putting in beads of both colors as he listed things we normally do in our lives. He had one bottle who kept all the commandments ~ but who committed a few sins like an occassional lie etc. The other bottle committed a few bigger sins (which made it receive more black beads) but who still did some good things. After the bottles were full, he demonstrated the effect of repentence by taking out all the black beads. The bottle which had the most black beads removed, was almost half empty, while the bottle that had the lesser sins removed was almost completely full. Taking away our sins does not replace or fill up that which was lost. It only takes away the sins. Sins cause damage. Some effects of sin cannot be removed by simply repenting and having the atonement. I think D&C 130:18-19 is trying to teach that principle.

Lyman Richards for one.

The promise is what good it is. There is a future even in Heaven. You know that an eternity is only 5 billion years or so, right? Well, there are keys given in the temple which give the power to move from one kingdom to the next as you progress ~ because there is progression even after this life, for everyone. The punishment for those who don't do what they should according to the knowledge given them is: They will be lagging a bit behind ~ and just as your married children aren't under your roof here, (hopefully) they won't be there either ~ if you are in a higher kingdom you will be able to visit them as often as you like ~ They just won't be able to pop in on you ~ :) Amillia, With all due repect, this is all speculation, even in the Mormon church. There is no church doctrine as to what exactly goes on in the hereafter with regard to each of these kingdoms. You hear so much contradictory stuff, even from GA's that there is no way to nail it down in terms of actual doctrine, so it is important, especially when talking to non-mormons to preface such remarks with "Now this is just my opinion, and not church doctrine". I did exactly that.... I said: Here is how I see it: So I don't know that anyone here is really reading my posts....

I hate to burst your bubble, but I was also a pure and delightful virgin on my wedding night. I never thought that I was more deserving of an eternal reward for that than my non virgin friends. In fact I had a few who I felt were far more "righteous" than I was. They just messed up in different ways than I did, but we were all sinners in one way or another. I just never worried about it. They paid their price with their own remorse. I would never expect a just and loving God to punish them eternally for a moment of bad judgement on this earth. Interestingly enough, most of my posts on this thread state that very thing ~ and the opposing view, coming from a guy on this board who is in leadership, disagrees with ya. Amillia, I am not sure if you are referring to me (if you are, you have my permission to mention me by name)...but I would have to agree with Curvette on this one. The scriptures teach us that if we truly repent, exercise faith in Christ, are baptized....receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost...are sins are forgiven and forgotten. I think I had mentioned before on this board, maybe not...but my wife and I have been together since 5th grade. We went steady in 5th, again in 7th grade...she got pregnant the summer after 9th grade. She was not a member of the church. She studied, took the discussions....and was baptized. She has lived a wonderfully righteous life (IMO) and she has worked hard at home and at church. She has sacrificed tremendously. The Lord has long since forgiven her for that transgression many years ago. It will not be held against her or me. IMO..your SP was coming from left field with his comments. Oh well, it will just give me yet another question to ask my SP. Amillia, please do not misunderstand my position. I believe in the atonement of Christ. I believe in repentance and forgiveness. I also believe in accountability and righteous judgement by our Lord. The church does not believe in a "perpetual second chance" theory. The scriptures are crystal clear on what we need to do, and when we need to do it...and the consequences both good and ill that will come from it. Do you understand the inheritence and how it can't be given again when it is spent? According to JFSmith, and other prophets.....your wife and yourself will not receive Godhood, but will only be servants in that kingdom. It isn't a matter of repenting and being atoned for.....it is a matter of the used up inheritence.....think of King David who lost his throne....yet he repented all of his life.... This isn't my teachings....it is the prophets'.... And I don't think you understood my post about the 'second' chance idea. I think a second chance would be coming back to this earth....and no one gets that.... But progression isn't a second chance....it is a doctrine....taught even by prophets....about progressing within the kingdoms.....and if progression is allowed....it isn't a second chance....it is just a harder road to gain what you could have gained much easier.... I don't think you are considering all the teachings on this subject....you have closed the door.... So....lets just leave it here...

Or purhaps we have misread it all along and this is actually hell and we have already been judged.

D&C 130: 15 "Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old (Dec 1890 - Dec 1891), thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter." Yeah....so what's your excuse? He didn't live that long ~

I hate to burst your bubble, but I was also a pure and delightful virgin on my wedding night. I never thought that I was more deserving of an eternal reward for that than my non virgin friends. In fact I had a few who I felt were far more "righteous" than I was. They just messed up in different ways than I did, but we were all sinners in one way or another. I just never worried about it. They paid their price with their own remorse. I would never expect a just and loving God to punish them eternally for a moment of bad judgement on this earth. Interestingly enough, most of my posts on this thread state that very thing ~ and the opposing view, coming from a guy on this board who is in leadership, disagrees with ya.

I believe she died when Father in Heaven took her spirit. When that was, only she and the Lord would know. I could guess that it was sometime between 1990 and 2005. Honestly, we could debate this till the cows come home, but it wouldn't ever come to a difinitive answer. How could we know except the Spirit told us, and since it really isn't our business, the Spirit probably won't tell us. Amillia, Thank you for your reply. I believe the same thing that you do about a person dies when Heavenly Father takes their spirit. I tend to believe that we don't actually die until our hearts stop beating. You take someone who has a near death experience, and for a time, their spirit leaves their body right? Yes, but are they dead for real? What about Lazarus and others who were raised from the dead or brought back by the Lord as in NDE? It really is God's territory isn't it? I think there are some things we just shouldn't have any control over, yet we think we are wise enough to give and take life, even if it isn't real life we are giving. It is all part of our testing. We are given knowledge, but with all of our getting of this knowledge, are we getting understanding? I really don't think we are doing too well in that catagory. I think we have to have courage to change what we can, serenity to accept the things we cannot change and wisdom to know the difference. I think wisdom is both knowledge and the use of it to the benefit, not damage, of all people. However, agency of man, keeps all the world swirling around in some pretty questionable decisions. We all do stupid things, we all make bad decisions, and sometimes we all are fooled into thinking we know better than someone else how it should be done. But sometimes we can look back upon those times and see that we really didn't know better. Amillia, may I assume then that you are against capital punishment--since we ought not think of ourselves "wise enough to give and take life"? I think taking the life of someone who has taken life is different than any other kind. I do believe in capital punishment. Of course I am way prejudice because of someone who kidnapped, raped, and murdered a dear friend of mine when I was young.

I agree it should not be used to condemn the LDS. It just should be used to condemn previous generations of white males. I won't get into the the discussion of whether or not a Prophet is above racism...I hate repetitive discussions. Cal, are you becoming softer and more sympathetic to the LDS since I last saw you? You are starting to sound like me on a good day You know ~ the men in ww2 really had a tough time liking Germans and Japanese. I remember when I was little, my dad would be the only one willing to HT the Goffs because they were Germans. Yet he didn't like Blacks ~ at all! By the time I went on a mission our bishop was German. But my dad still didn't like blacks! When I was a young married, a young Japanese woman was telling me how difficult people were still making it for her and her family because of the war, and how angry her family were about Topaz. Many people had been raised with prejudices which just were a mark of their day. I had no such prejudices. Even though my parents were somewhat prejudiced against blacks, I wasn't. I had black friends and black enemies. I learned early to judge each person on their own merits, and not on their race as a whole.

(Kimball consulting with his good buddy and convicted murderer Mark Hoffman) In 1960, future Prophet Spencer W. Kimball gave a speech at the LDS General Conference. Here's an excerpt... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today...they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people....For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised....The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation." "At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl -- sixteen -- sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents -- on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather....These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated." Source: Improvement Era, Dec. 1960, 922-923. So is that out of context or this as disturbing as it sounds? It's out of context.

Yes they will. But then those who have a true prophet don't have to make excuses do they!