laronius

I think your second point is interesting because the natural man is by definition faithless. So I guess it comes down whether one's faith can ever so fully subdue the natural man that it never can cause these negative feelings in the midst of difficulty.

I appreciate your perspective. It makes me think of the man who brought a child to Jesus to be healed but when questioned about his faith he makes the request of "help thou mine unbelief." Or in other words he is seeking to exercise faith in the midst of his lack of faith. I have certainly felt this way at times. But what if this man was not lacking in faith? Of course he would still be concerned about the physical welfare of his child. I don't think there is any escaping that in this life But if he truly believed that either Christ would heal him or if not then everything would still work out fine either way, would this man still be feeling the desperate anxiety that seemed to grip him?

Thanks for everyone's responses. I think I could have been a little more specific in my question now after having read what everyone had to say. Clearly we are all going to experience difficulties in life, things that cause us concern and some plain old miserable days, months or maybe even years. But I would differentiate these negative emotions from what I was trying to get at before. I think the key word here is doubt. The Lord has promised that if we remain faithful then all things will some how turn for our good. If we truly believed this then should we really need to stress and worry about a situation? I think personally I would still worry about the one great variable in this equation and that would be my faith. Because if I failed to remain faithful then I have no such promise. BUT assuming my faith is not lacking then my trust in the Lord's promises should quiet all my fears, doubts, worries, and stress. I think this state of being is part of what it means to enter into the rest of the Lord. But because my faith is not perfect I can't say that I've ever been able to prove this line of thinking in my own life so I look to others who have greater faith than I for verification. Though there have been experiences where I feel stress because I don't know the outcome of a situation even after all that I know to do. So instead of worrying about it I try to put it into the hands of the Lord and just stop worrying about it. But then doubt creeps into mind about whether I'm exercising faith or if I'm just ignoring the problem.

I think if the Church were going to do this it would have been done a long time ago. With the building of each new temple around the world such a need grows smaller. At this point it would probably be easier just to finance the travel for members who are still so far away from the temple. Of course that would eliminate much of the sacrifice and it's attending blessings. But who knows. Maybe as conditions in the world grow worse we may yet see a time when building temples is no no longer feasible.

I recently started reading Saints volume 3. In it is the story of Heber J Grant, not yet the prophet, who is sent east to secure funding to keep the Church afloat. If he doesn't do it by the next day the Church may default on it's existing loans and it's financial future would go from bad to worse. All night he is stressed, worried and anxious about what to do. The next day he is miraculously able to secure the much needed funding. As I read that story the question came to mind concerning the necessity of the stress and worry he was feeling. Were these negative feelings a sign of a lack of faith on his part? Or are they normal or perhaps even purposeful among the completely faithful? Part of me says if he had had greater faith and was better prepared then he could have avoided all of that stress and worry. At least that seems to be what the doctrine implies. But another part of me says that if I don't feel stress and worry to some degree about something so serious of nature, regardless of my faith, that I'm being careless and perhaps even flippant in my approach. If it were just myself who experienced these feelings I would just chalk it up to my still growing faith. But when I see these feelings and emotions experienced by people of far greater faith it makes me wonder if there is a level of stress and worry attached to our fallen state that will simply not be overcome in this life? Even the Savior himself seemed to have been experiencing some of these feelings leading up to the garden experience. But perhaps I am comparing apples to oranges in this. So I guess another way of saying it is: Is stress, worry, and anxiety not always connected to our level of faith?

I don't have a dog in the fight either way. But from the little I've read it seems like heartland model has a lot more going against it than the mesoamerican model does. Anyone truly interested in being directed by the evidence must acknowledge the evidence against as well as the evidence for. And right now the visual evidence, like geography and climate, which is much of what you experience in a movie, what you see, does not work well for the heartland model. So from a movie and visual experience perspective mesoamerica seems a more natural fit.

TVT = The Vort Translation

Other than that it was present and granted immortality, not much is really said about the tree of life. Concerning Adam and Eve's perception of the forbidden fruit I think this is a good question and indicative of thoughtful pondering. My take on it would be this: the bitterness of the forbidden fruit was that it brought about death, physical and spiritual. Whatever else may have been triggered by their partaking didn't change this and it's something we all still experience. Concerning child bearing and any other "sweetness" they experienced, and us for that matter, this came as they acted on the truths they were taught. Or in other words it came as they progressed along the path Lehi and Nephi saw in vision that lead to the tree of life. So while they may have been cut from the tree of life, Jesus Christ has made it accessible to us once more but only as we obey his gospel.

My opinion is that mentioned by @person0that what he heard was the Holy Ghost in his role as messenger, kind of a "thus saith the Lord" kind of pronouncement that prophets make as an agent of the Lord. Though we do know people have near-death experiences where it appears that their spirits temporarily leave their body. So I guess it's possible Jesus was able to do the same here.

The Lord is less interested in the individual choices we make than the person we ultimately become as a result of those choices. If a person is a screw-up most of his life but ultimately learns those hard lessons and becomes a righteous individual in the end then that person may still inherit eternal life. But it requires God's mercy for that to happen. Where as if a person never learns those lessons then the granting of mercy does not really accomplish anything because he is still the same person as before. Placing a Terrestrial being in the Celestial kingdom is not an act of mercy. Of course this person still receives some mercy but not to the point of placing him in an unnatural state.

Teaching that class was the best calling I've ever had and when I wasn't teaching I still enjoyed attending it more than any of the others classes. Just focusing on the doctrine is how all classes should be but unfortunately is often not the case.

I really do like that imagery of climbing/ascending up to be with the Lord, whether climbing a mountain or ladder. Perhaps it's because of my enjoyment of hiking but the mental image of leaving the world and all of it's sordidness behind and rising above it all really brings into focus what our goal in the gospel should be, a spiritual destination that we should be looking to. Perhaps this is the earthly version of entering into the rest of the Lord we are commanded to seek.

I think you are right. Those verses would actually be a good footnote reference in the scriptures. If this is the case then Moses 7:53 is clearly tying together the covenants of salvation and exaltation.

Jacob's ladder did come to mind but this quote from Joseph Smith definitely does explain the purpose of climbing in a gospel perspective.

I guess this would be similar to some of our temples where you actually progress upward as you go through with the end indeed being "up by" Him.

Moses 7:53 And the Lord said: Blessed is he through whose seed Messiah shall come; for he saith—I am Messiah, the King of Zion, the Rock of Heaven, which is broad as eternity; whoso cometh in at the gate and climbeth up by me shall never fall; wherefore, blessed are they of whom I have spoken, for they shall come forth with songs of everlasting joy. Does anyone know what the climbing refers to in this scripture? I don't mean the interpretation but the symbol. I get the gate as being the entrance but what exactly is being climbed and why?

So are you saying the outcome might have been different had they partaken of the fruit prior to Satan's involvement? If the temple analogy the article deals with is correct then prior to accessing the tree of life by entering into the inner part of the garden, which I guess would be our modern day Celestial room, certain instruction and preparation would have had to take place, specially considering the ignorant state they were in. So I guess partaking of that fruit of knowledge could have been tempting but I guess we don't know how much they understood at that time or specifically what Satan told them when he showed up.

That's a bummer. I'm amazed at how far those dust particles travel.

One of the views expressed in this article (https://rsc.byu.edu/ascending-mountain-lord/tree-knowledge-veil-sanctuary) that was apparently held by at least some early Christians was that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was actually more of a hedge that encircled the tree of life and one must pass through this hedge or "veil" before you could access the tree of life. Or in other words, as I read it, one could not partake of the fruit of the tree of life without first acquiring the knowledge of good and evil first. Now whether that is how the garden was set up I don't know but I think that principle is still true and worth keeping in mind when studying this topic.

As far as I'm concerned your post is very relevant to this thread as I intended to broaden it's scope anyway but got distracted. As we consider what the main purposes of the Millennium are, temple and missionary work, I imagine many of the distractions and impediments that exist now will be removed to allow us to concentrate more fully on those purposes. But in many ways life still goes on including raising families and all of the many activities that entails. This surely includes recreation and other wholesome pastimes and activities. I personally would find it very interesting to teach the gospel under those circumstances, especially at the beginning when the world is still dealing with having to explain exactly what has just happened. How does a Hindu explain it or what might a fervent but non-LDS Christian feel about the Savior's coming that doesn't happen exactly as they thought it would. It would certainly be a topic many would want to talk about and the need for missionaries, full-time and member, will be great!

I guess what I was thinking about is that if the natural man did not come into being until the fall and with the Millennium being a somewhat pre-fall status I was wondering what do we carry over with us. Of course it's not entirely like the Garden of Eden.

#1 Adam and Eve did not come into being when they were placed in the Garden of Eden. They lived, along with all of us, with God in the spirit world where opposition did exist. When they were placed in the Garden their environment, for a time, was pretty sterile. So I guess we could say that the environment was potentially "as dead" in that initially progress was restricted. Whether it was completely dead or just mostly dead (shoutout to Princess Bride fans) we may not know as I will talk about in my answer to question 2. #2 While Satan was definitely a catalyst to make things happen in the Garden that doesn't necessarily mean there was no temptation before his involvement. Moses 4:12 tells us "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it became pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make her wise, she took of the fruit thereof..." While Satan definitely enticed Eve to partake of the fruit it is still possible that there was some enticement taking place before that, just apparently not enough to get Eve to partake of the fruit. Perhaps though Adam and Eve were sufficiently ignorant as to not find the fruit appealing at all prior to Satan. But it's very presence in the Garden makes me think that out of curiosity if nothing else Adam and Eve had to have experienced some enticement to partake of it. But that's just a guess. #3 Adam and Eve's act is labeled a transgression and not a sin. A law was broken but in ignorance, meaning their childlike state did not allow them to fully understand the consequences of their choice. Once they experienced the consequences they started to gain the knowledge that would allow them to make informed decisions. Man cannot be condemned or saved in ignorance. They must know what they are choosing between and the breaking of any law further drives home that point. #4 I think it's a true statement either way. I'm guessing they were only trying to get back to the original with that change but that's only a guess. Generally the capital G version refers to the Godhead whereas the lower case version refers to man's potential to become like them.

In reading in the Gospel Doctrine Student Manual I read some quotes of modern prophets that got me thinking about what the Millennium will be like. I thought I'd quote a few of them here with the question they evoked. I recognize that these quotes may not represent official doctrine of the Church. “The time for the Second Coming of Christ is as fixed and certain as was the hour of his birth. It will not vary as much as a single second from the divine decree. He will come at the appointed time. The Millennium will not be ushered in prematurely because men turn to righteousness, nor will it be delayed because iniquity abounds. Nephi was able to state with absolute certainty that the God of Israel would come ‘in six hundred years from the time my father left Jerusalem.’ (1 Ne. 19:8.) To a later Nephi the Divine Voice acclaimed: ‘The time is at hand, and on this night shall the sign be given, and on the morrow come I into the world.’ (3 Ne. 1:13.)” (Bruce R. McConkie, The Millennial Messiah, 26–27). Obviously God’s omniscience allows Him to know in advance exactly when the Second Coming will take place. But McConkie seems to be teaching that that time is in no way impacted by the conditions of the world. And while I don’t have any specific quotes, it seems like it has been at least implied in the past that the Savior will come once we are ready and prepared for him, generally speaking and not individually. Is that not the impression other’s have had or am I just in left field on this? “When the reign of Jesus Christ comes during the millennium, only those who have lived the telestial law will be removed. The earth will be cleansed of all its corruption and wickedness. Those who have lived virtuous lives, who have been honest in their dealings with their fellow man and have endeavored to do good to the best of their understanding, shall remain” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3:62). Does this imply that some of those who live during the millennium may only inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom because only Telestial law abiders are removed? “It shall be in that day that the lion shall lie down with the lamb and eat straw as the ox, and all fear, hatred, and enmity shall depart from the earth because all things having hate in their hearts shall pass away; and there shall come a change, a change over men, a change over the beasts of the field, and upon all things living upon the face of the earth. “According to this word I have read there shall be harmony, and love, and peace, and righteousness because Satan is bound that he cannot tempt any man, and that will be the condition that shall be upon the earth for 1,000 years” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3:58). Is this implying that the natural man will not exist within us during the Millennium? And will, for example, those who currently experience same sex attraction have their natural feelings restored to their correct order?

Well @Carborendum you caught me. The two witnesses prophecy has proven to be my spiritual Achilles heel. Who would've thunk it. 😂 Seriously???? Okay, let me set your mind at ease that I am not quickly (or even slowly) sliding into the realm of apostasy. Apparently it has been a while since I've read section 133 of the D&C which as you point out clearly teaches us that these individuals have in fact been resurrected and that is why I thanked you for your contribution. You previously had referenced something a previous prophet had mentioned and while I always give merit to such things I also recognize the possibility of expressed opinion in such things so I don't automatically take it as absolute, so if you would have lead with scripture I imagine this thread would have been a bit shorter. But I thank you for your concern.

Yes, the "raised up to the Jewish nation" part is one of the few bits of information on their identity. It does make one wonder on what exactly it means.