laronius

I'm glad you brought this up. I guess it depends on how we define perfect in the context of personality. Does it include being perfectly humorous, perfectly interesting to listen to, perfectly interested in listening to us, perfectly serious or playful when necessary, etc? Or can these things still vary between "perfect" individuals?

I don't know about you Vort but them being a member of the opposite sex is kind of a requirement for "perfect" spouse in my book. 😀

I'm curious to know what would be your deciding factor or factors when choosing between two perfect spouses.

It's very possible and until I find something that specifically spells it all out my thoughts on the matter are only that. But from the scriptures I've read it sure sounds like, at least to me, that the resurrection event actively brings us back into God's presence rather than simply making it possible. And maybe that's splitting hairs. I'm just looking for understanding on how I currently read the scriptures.

In reviewing more scriptures about the resurrection I think I might be piecing this together a little more. So see if this makes sense: In Helaman 14:17 it states: 17 But behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord. So in many of the scriptures I've read where its talking about the resurrection and coming back into the presence of the Lord it also refers to redemption. Mormon 9:13 explains it in a little more detail: 12 Behold, he created Adam, and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son; and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man. 13 And because of the redemption of man, which came by Jesus Christ, they are brought back into the presence of the Lord; yea, this is wherein all men are redeemed, because the death of Christ bringeth to pass the resurrection, which bringeth to pass a redemption from an endless sleep, from which sleep all men shall be awakened by the power of God when the trump shall sound; and they shall come forth, both small and great, and all shall stand before his bar, being redeemed and loosed from this eternal band of death, which death is a temporal death. 14 And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them... So when we talk about redemption, at least in this context, we are talking about overcoming the full effects of the fall, which were physical and spiritual death. Spiritual death in this context means separation from God. It appears that the resurrection actually overcomes both by reuniting our spirits with our bodies and then bringing us back into God's presence. Perhaps this is why the resurrected Lord told Mary not to "touch" him not because he had not yet ascended to the Father because the full redemptive process was not yet complete. When we come into this world we have not yet done anything to merit this separation. So it makes sense that after our testing we are brought back into His presence, having been fully redeemed from that which we had not control over, and then judged to see if we get to remain in God's presence or if the second death comes upon us and we are separated again but this time because of our own unrepented of deeds. If this is true then I am going to have to look at the resurrection as being more than I had previously thought.

This does make a lot of sense. It doesn't answer the question about resurrection's power to bring us back into God's presence (if there is such a thing) but as to its timing it definitely makes sense that it would take place as part of the whole judgement process. Resurrection seems to be the cut off point. If anything is going to happen if deciding our eternal fate it needs to happen prior to the resurrection.

Your thoughts are definitely in line with how I had always perceived it but more and more it seems (if I am reading it correctly) that resurrection is a gateway back into God's presence. Your point about the state of our bodies required to be in God's presence though does I think offer an important element in understanding it.

Over the years I have noticed how often the scriptures speak of the resurrection leading us back into God's presence to be judged. Initially I just thought that was the order of events: resurrection then judgment. But as I paid more attention to these scriptures it sure makes it sound like resurrection is actually making it happen or at least making it possible. The reading this week in Helaman 14:15-17 makes it very clear that this is the case. Does anyone have a good explanation as to why resurrection specifically makes this possible?

Is this a round about way of patting yourself on the back seeing how you said in another thread that your posts are always ending threads? 😁 So I guess we just need to recruit a bunch of half-wits and not allow you to respond until at least the second page. That'll get things going around here. 😉

To quote Joseph Smith from the King Follett discourse: "If men do not comprehend the character of God, they do not comprehend themselves." Not knowing who God is is like putting a very complicated puzzle together without knowing the picture but where God is the picture and we are the pieces. Also, our faith to act on God's word is directly connected to our ability to comprehend Him or at least his qualities. Knowing God after all is the definition of life eternal. So I completely agree. And to @estradling75 point, to "see" Christ is to see the Father. So to be like Christ you must first come to know him in which case you are also coming to know the Father.

Yes and no. Our divine potential is, in my mind, THE core doctrine of the gospel from an eternal perspective. But since it is not attainable here in this life we focus on what is attainable here and now.

If I remember correctly those comments were about God having performed the role of Savior at some previous point. If that is the case he would not have been a fallible man. But my main point is that we don't have all the details.

As mentioned already the part about God once being like us is never fully explained. It is said Jesus became like man and while that is true in some aspects he was not completely like us and yet his is a God. So to say God our Father was once a fallible man cannot be assumed. We simply do not know. But that does not take away from man's potential as sons and daughters of God. If there is one thing this world God created teaches us is that like begets like. That truth coupled with our belief that we are the literal spirit children of God leads us to only one conclusion. This is why following the apostasy man's understanding of the true nature of God was so thoroughly corrupted by Satan. You turn God into a completely incomprehensible being and our true relationship with Him is lost and with that our aspirations to become like Him. Sadly much of the Christian world still operates under those corrupted notions. From a practical standpoint when we consider how good some people become in this brief existence called mortality in the midst of a fallen and depraved world all the while under the influence of Satan and then you take that person and give them literally FOREVER to improve in the presence and grace of God, what right do we have to place limits on a person's potential in eternity? To me this doctrine of becoming like our Father in Heaven is the most logical doctrine of all.

I thought I phrased it correctly but I'm no English expert. So yes my intention was to say that each person's unique circumstances will be a factor in how we are judged.

Maybe I'll throw another factor into the salvation equation as it pertains to becoming consecrated. As with many gospel principles there is, I believe, some overlapping of the laws of consecration and sacrifice. One defining characteristic of consecration though is that we actively seek to better ourselves so that we have more to offer. For example if I increase my ability to make money I will have more money to consecrate. If I increase my level of skill or knowledge I will be able to serve or teach better. This is why we are taught to get all the education we can and be the best that we can be in our temporal pursuits. This all of course with the recognition that we don't sacrifice things of greater importance in the process. But these things of a temporal nature do matter.

Because you said both are fully worthy then that is all we need to know. But what qualified each as fully worthy from a practical standpoint is going to vary. We will be judged according to our ability to do. A wealthy person obviously has the ability to do more with his wealth than a poor person. A healthy person has the ability to do more with his body than a sick or injured person. And so it goes with knowledge, freedoms, upbringing, historical setting, etc. We will each be judged accordingly.

I did not engage namely because this is the LDS Gospel Discussion forum and I extended the invitation to do just that. There do seem to be similarities in beliefs but it is our prophets that I have a testimony of them being the source of such revealed truths and so yes that is where I tried to steer the discussion. The offer still stands.

It's probably best to stick with the phraseology and definitions as revealed by God. Much less confusion and chance for error. If you would like to discuss this doctrine as revealed by God through his chosen prophets I would be happy to oblige.

The Lord rarely does for us what we can do for ourselves. In Joseph's case he was translating an unknown language. It could only be done by revelation and as Fether pointed out the seer stone acted as a crutch to help that process along. Nowadays we have much more knowledge, technology and resources at our service (all of which has been provided by God) and he expects us to use it. Of course I would imagine there is still a great deal of revelation involved in the process.

The fall was indeed part of God's plan for His children. But it was not something He could justly thrust upon them. So the conditions were set for it to happen naturally. As @Just_A_Guy referenced Satan didn't fully understand God's plan and in his attempt to sabotage or subvert it seemingly played right into God's hands. To expand that Moses 4:6 reference we are taught: "for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world." We don't know if simply having them eat the fruit was Satan's whole plan or just the first step in a more elaborate scheme but we do know what wrecking the plan of salvation was his goal.

Putting everything else he said aside the part where he mentions UN, Russian and Chinese troops on American soil in November made me rather incredulous. Could the election spark unrest? Yes and it very may well. But that is a bit much.

The link didn't work for me. But just based off your remarks, on a scale of 1-10 how would you rate his sense of humor and his use of emojis to help indicate said humor?

In Hebrews 5 Paul speaks of Christ as being the great High Priest. Anyone called to this office is therefore expected to emulate Him so as to show the people how to come unto Him. This I think is the overall message of Alma 13. In general the office of high priest has been associated with the higher or Melchizedek Priesthood but due to the rebelliousness of the Israelites following their deliverance from Egypt things changed. God effectively took the high priesthood out of their midst (though we recognize the prophets as holding the higher priesthood) and left them with the lessor or Aaronic Priesthood. At this point the office of high priest became an Aaronic Priesthood function. But even still the office was only intended to be held by those who "due to their faith and good works" were worthy of such a responsibility as they represented the congregations before the Lord. In the Book of Mormon we get a little bit better understanding of this role outside of the temple with men like Alma who dedicated their lives (following conversion) to teaching the gospel and strengthening and building the Church. The verses you reference in Alma 13 speak of a doctrine that is unique to our theology. We believe that we all lived with God before coming to this earth. In that spirit world we were taught and trained and prepared to come to earth where our training would continue. We believe that all those who have the priesthood confirmed upon them in this life were foreordained and prepared "according the foreknowledge of God" in that pre-mortal world to receive it here in this life. Of course that path of faith and good works must be continued in this life. Since the restoration of Christ's Church back onto the earth the office of high priest is no longer considered an Aaronic Priesthood office but rather an office held by many holders of the higher priesthood who are in certain positions of authority. I hope that somewhat answers your questions.

The wings are symbolic in nature symbolising power, usually the power to move/travel as is often necessary for a messenger. I don't know of any official definition of who these angels are specifically but as with all angels they are simply sons and daughters of God filling an important responsibility. In fact, outside of beasts/animals, I don't know of any beings ever revealed to man other than the sons and daughters of God (just as you and I) and of course God himself. So if you come across a being in the scriptures it will fall into one of those categories.

It's very possible that this is just the literary use of personification. But I do think that a strong case could be made for these morning stars as being representative of certain individuals. The strongest evidence is Rev 22:16 where Christ refers to himself as "the bright and morning star." Even Lucifer is referred to as "a son of the morning" who desired to make his throne above the stars of God. I don't know of any official definition but my guess is that the morning stars are those who are or were in some position of authority in the kingdom of God. But we shouldn't overlook the importance of the first point as further exemplified in our D&C 128:23: 23 Let the mountains shout for joy, and all ye valleys cry aloud; and all ye seas and dry lands tell the wonders of your Eternal King! And ye rivers, and brooks, and rills, flow down with gladness. Let the woods and all the trees of the field praise the Lord; and ye solid rocks weep for joy! And let the sun, moon, and the morning stars sing together, and let all the sons of God shout for joy! And let the eternal creations declare his name forever and ever! And again I say, how glorious is the voice we hear from heaven, proclaiming in our ears, glory, and salvation, and honor, and immortality, and eternal life; kingdoms, principalities, and powers!