BeccaKirstyn

Well I have heard this quote before by Joseph Fielding Smith: Those who enter into the telestial kingdom, where their glories differ as do the stars of heaven in their magnitude, and who are innumerable as the sands of the seashore, are the ungodly, the filthy who suffer the wrath of God on the earth, who are thrust down to hell where they will be required to pay the uttermost farthing before their redemption comes. These are they who receive not the gospel of Christ and consequently could not deny the Holy Spirit while living on the earth. They have no part in the first resurrection and are not redeemed from the devil and his angels until the last resurrection, because of their wicked lives and their evil deeds. Nevertheless, even these are heirs of salvation, but before they are redeemed and enter into their kingdom, they must repent of their sins, and receive the gospel, and bow the knee, and acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the Redeemer of the world.In both the terrestrial and the telestial glories the inhabitants thereof will be limited in their powers, opportunities, and progression, because, like the sons of perdition, "they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received" (D&C 88:32). [Doctrines of Salvation, 2:22] But yes of course, the purpose of repentance is to gain exaltation. That should always be our ultimate goal. From my understanding, outer darkness is only for those who deliberately deny Christ after having been a witness to all his glory. Not for any one else under any other circumstance. So then if there are those who have been a witness of Christ, and then deny him, and refuse to repent, then they qualify for outer darkness. But not those individuals who just die in their sins. Repentance is required for every kingdom. Like you said, no unclean thing can dwell with God. But there are many more requirements than just repentance to enter Celestial glory. And God wants ALL His children to inherit this glory, and makes it possible so that we can do so (ex: repentance after you die), but it is also contingent upon receiving all of your ordinances, being faithful and worthy and enduring to the end in righteousness.

O So we're referring to Alma 12:16-18? (also Alma 11:41). I guess if someone would like to explain this in a "Gospel Principles" sort of way I would appreciate it. What I see here is the exact thing I was saying: No one can be saved in sin. Repentance is necessary to be saved. I see these verses as those who deliberately deny the gospel of Christ. But from what I've been taught (and maybe I've understood it wrong) is that EVERY person, besides those who qualify as sons of perdition and will reside in outer darkness, will inherit a kingdom of glory. I don't remember that there's any other place individuals go besides the 3 glories or outer darkness. So if these people who die in their sins, as The Folk Prophet states, will lose the opportunity to repent of their sins, then they have no place to go. From my understanding of what I've been taught, these individuals are given the opportunity again in Spirit Prison to accept the gospel and repent (even though the process is much harder in that state).

I would love for you to expand upon this. We know, from scripture, that this life is the time to repent. To procrastinate repentance is a sin of itself. We also know that every single person, except the Sons of Perdition, will be saved and will enter into a specific kingdom. We know that all must repent of their sins before they enter into whichever kingdom they will reside. So are you referring to the Sons of Perdition? Because I'm not sure what you're referring to.

Hey everyone. I've kind of already made my presence known by responding a lot on various threads. I had a previous account awhile back (I forgot what email address I used, user name, etc.) but didn't post much. I decided to come back because who doesn't love conversing with people you've never met? But this also gives me a relaxing outlet (oddly) from the work/school load I have going on.

I would quote Elder Holland: "Believe in God and yourself. You are doing better than you think you are." My sympathy goes out to you. I cannot give you any advice from another "parent" perspective, because I am not one. I can give you my thoughts on the matter and you can take them or leave them, whichever is most helpful for you. I would echo LiterateParakeet's words. There is a cause for this behavior. This is my own personal opinion, so disregard it if it's not something you accept, but I would think that she's resorting to marijuana and cigarettes as an escape. Teenage girls are participating in this behavior because of pressure from their friends/boyfriend, or are trying to find an escape from their emotions and situations. Something deeper I think is going on (maybe in regards to the boyfriend and his behavior towards her). Do you know if the boyfriend is being verbally/emotionally/physically abusive? (I ask because of the pressure he put on her to have sex). Sometimes girls don't even recognize this when it is happening (I know, it sounds strange). When they are given information about what an abusive partner looks like, they'll deny that it's what is going on. But that information will stay with them, and hopefully they'll begin to see it in their significant other and want to leave for their own safety. No one can force someone out of an abusive relationship. The victim must choose to do so herself (or himself for any scenario). I would also echo the question of if she is in therapy? I know this is a taboo word in our cultural/society, but this can be a place of refuge for people with mental torment. I wouldn't force it though. Maybe require one session, and if she wants to go back she can, but if not I wouldn't make her. Therapy is only helpful when the client is voluntarily coming for help. Out of everything, I think you are probably doing everything you can and doing the best you can. Continue showing her your love. She's seeking out love and to be accepted from her boyfriend/friends, but it's not the love she's truly looking for. I hope that her heart will change and see how much you love her, and that the actions you've taken are out of love and not anger. My prayers go out to you and your family.

Yes. Men can be victims of rape. Especially when there are substances involved. If he did not mentally consent, then it is rape. Can men become physically aroused? Yes. This is even prominent in women who are raped. Sex is a biological function where biological responses happen. If this man did not want to have sex with this woman, was given drugs to reduce his ability to be mentally coherent, and the woman proceeded to coerce him into sex, then it is rape.

I'm not skilled in how to do multiple quotes from one post so I'll just copy and paste each thing I'm replying to. "As soon as someone drops this phrase I can't help but wonder... but what if you're wrong? Are you so determined in your own philosophies, understanding, and mortal views of how it all works that you would cast off your own salvation rather than accept a different view?" I would not call it my own philosophies. I'm grounding my testimony in the scriptures and revelations I've received. Would I call it my testimony? Yes. Can my testimony be changed? Well of course. That's how I continue to progress. For now, I believe that we all have the ability to repent in the next life. Can that change? Yes, just like any part of my testimony can change. "I'll grant that this is an interesting idea. However, I've never seen any theory or scripture that implies one, having been righteous and having done all required of them in this life, might still fall after this life. Nor have I read anywhere that teaches that those who have opportunity in this life but denied it will still have opportunity in the next life." Which is why I did not support my thought with a scripture. It's just a theoretical thought that I've come upon due to our understanding of our ability to have agency in the pre-existence. I think that's the whole point of this discussion--finding scriptural references for such a thought/idea. "Why not, when this is as likely it's meaning as anything?" Well then I'll pose to you, why can't it mean something beyond what it's surface structure says? I think it can go both ways. "This verse seems to imply that regardless of post mortal said repentance, they will still be sent to the Telestial or Terrestrial kingdoms if their works so indicate. Which might well mean that repentance may be required for all who go to any kingdom of glory, but post mortal repentance does not qualify one for the inheritance of the Celestial, (unless one didn't have the opportunity in this life, of course)." I wasn't implying that post mortal repentance qualifies you for Celestial glory. No one knows or can make that decision for any one of us, except God. I'm simply talking about the idea posed by OP about repentance in the life hereafter. As for the scriptures you posted, the OP was specifically asking about a scenario in which someone dies in the state of sin in which they didn't have the opportunity to repent for. So that's why I referred to the scriptures that I did. We know that this life is the time to repent and we should NOT procrastinate repentance.

We know we are still able to sin after we die, because we still have our agency in paradise and prison. We are not in a state of perfection. The atonement was made so that sin could be forgiven, so repentance must be available to us in the spirit world. In D&C 138 it talks much about repentance in the spirit world: 57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead. 58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, 59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. I can't imagine that verse 58 is only reserved to those who haven't heard the fruits of the gospel. The whole point is that they hear the gospel, repent of their ways, and accept it's truths. And then their work is done for them here on Earth. We continually go through this same cycle as members. We sin, remember the truths of the gospel as if they were re-taught to us, we repent of our sins, and accept our baptismal promise again.

The whole purpose of us being on Earth is the all encompassing love that our Father in Heaven has for us. He placed his Beloved Son here to be crucified and bleed from every pore so that we may be forgiven of our sins and one day return to His presence. Why would the "end all be all" of repentance be the end of our physical life? I am no scripture master so I would have to do my own researching to find a scripture to back up my statement, but I cannot and will not believe that this loving Father in Heaven will not allow those who know of the gospel truths to repent in the life here after. He is justice, but he provided us mercy. I believe that mercy started in the pre-existence, and follows us into our next life.

We must always remember, God wants to save ALL of His children. Not just "a few of them" (a quote from the Restoration movie). He wants to provide every way possible for the process of repentance.

I'm by no means a scripture master or even incredibly knowledgable about the gospel (I believe I have a very firm understanding of the doctrines of the gospel but I am young and still have so much to learn), but I think you are forgetting about the place between this life and the next. When we die, we go to a temporary state of "paradise" or "spirit prison" (D&C 138). Repentance is not only for our Earth life. We are capable of repentance in while in this spirit world after we die. You are not "eternally damned" for a sin committed at the point of your death, as you're referring to. I believe, at least from my understanding of the spirit world, that we have the opportunity to repent of those sins, just like every other person does who did not have the gospel in their lives.

Obviously you have some purpose for asking these questions with these scriptural verses referenced that you're wanting us to get at. What is this purpose? Do you feel you have a personal experience similar to this that you need an answer to? Or a friend that had a similar situation? None of us can determine the outcome of any individual. To try to do so is to have the mind of God, which is not even possible. He is all knowing. We are not. I'm just not sure what you're getting at here.

You made a decision that you cannot go back and change. I don't know whether or not this decision was made with the Lord in mind through prayer, but either way, it happened and that time in your life was spent being a caretaker when needed. I believe that dwelling on something you wish you could change will only bring you sorrow and grief. This is Satan's way of making you feel bad about not serving a mission. The Lord knows the intent of your heart. Remember this, and move on with your life with the faith that He will guide you to where you are supposed to go. Ignore leaders that seem to speak harsh words about those who do not serve missions. They are the ones sinning, not you. Keep on living your life and the Lord will bless you if you are living worthily. Do not give up on finding a spouse. There are many women who do not have RM stamped on their list as a permanent characteristic that they are not willing to give up. RM DOES NOT equal a worthy member of the church. Honestly, if you're a current temple recommend holder, I find that much more impressive and worthwhile. That shows me the person you are now, not the person you were however many years ago. Remember, the Lord wants you to find joy in this life. Satan wants you to find sadness, anger, and resentment.

It broke my heart to watch.

More importantly, God sees the desires and intents of our hearts. In this "sin" as you define, his intent was to show love and compassion for his wife. One of the important roles he has to his eternal companion.

Thanks for all the great input everyone! I'll be bringing up the informal group idea with my bishop and see what he thinks (whether it's FHE or not I'll let him decide). Such an important topic that needs more discussion.

That's a great point. That's one of the things I am concerned with/want to be very aware of is those who have experienced any kind of sexual abuse or dating violence. Coming from a place of personal experience, I would not want anyone to feel anxious or traumatized due to past experiences while discussing these subjects. I've worked with an advocacy group that does presentations on a college campus about awareness of these issues, in which we start with a trigger warning. So that would probably be a good thing to include if such an activity would be put together in a less "formal" setting. Thanks for the input!

That's why I mentioned the fact that I know my bishop won't have a problem with it. Every activity with the YSA involved is cleared through the bishop (unless you're having a get-together or bowling night). I'm talking about a YSA-sponsored activity with the bishopric members in attendance.

A few Sundays back, the Relief Society lesson in my YSA ward was about the law of chastity. We had a lot of announcements to get through (and new members to introduce) so by the time we got to the lesson we only had about 25 minutes. The young woman teaching said she wasn't sure how to go about teaching the lesson, so she (with approval from the RS President) had a more "forum" like discussion where people asked questions, we listed them on the chalkboard, and then began to answer them one by one. Of course, with 25 minutes, we got to 2 questions, while the rest of the 10 or so on the board were left for our own discernment and further questioning. My concern was that the questions asked by these women were very important questions that aren't always discussed in these lessons (i.e., how can you look for the spiritual warnings in "slippery" situations, how do we communicate in dating/relationships about the lines we will not cross, how to say "NO" in a bad situation, etc.) I was truly surprised at these questions! And eager to discuss them with my fellow sisters, but unfortunately time did not allow it. I could tell as well that the sister teaching the lesson was truly uncomfortable with speaking on the subject matter. I know this is a hard subject matter for many to discuss openly with such a group, but there were many eager sisters to talk about these questions. I think these lessons are SO important in YSA wards. Not just for the regular "law of chastity" lesson, but also to have these open Q&A discussions on things that sometimes aren't specifically addressed in talks or pamphlets about this doctrine. It plays such a HUGE role in our lives, especially during our specific age. I truly want to have this open forum about these questions within my ward and outside of the typical Relief Society/Elder's Quorum meeting during Sunday. It's just too limiting in time with such in-depth information to be discussed. What do you think is the best setting for this type of scenario? It's hard to put in the YSA announcements: "Law of Chastity Q&A activity tonight at 7pm!". I don't feel like we would get many to come and it wouldn't be taken seriously. Some of these questions are really important to address! I think my bishop would be very open to having such an activity or lesson, whatever it would be called, but I'm not sure how to go about setting it up or how to encourage members to attend the activity/meeting. Any thoughts or ideas? If you don't agree with such an activity I would love your input as well.