the Ogre

Hilarious!!! You are funny. I think Maureen was right about you. Get to know the people you are calling names. The misogynist one is great. You don't even know me. Lovely. Hilarious. Wonderful. And most of all thank you.

Yeah, but why would anyone still use it. I don't like PC's use of the word "cult" so why would I like the word "gentile." It is offensive. Jewish people avoid it as well. If I wanted to become jewish, I wouldn't have to convert. All I have to do is show up at synagogue. Occasionally. Once in a while. Maybe never, I know the Salt Lake Chabad Shluchim (I asked if I could drive one of the Chabbad Tanks if they ever come to town . . . they'll get back with me). Does that count? I suppose that would mean I could use the word if I wanted to. I could call you one. I won't. You shouldn't call people names either.

I agree, but let's make sure H- doesn't look to Norwegian.

Here is the evangelical reaction to Rev. Mouw's statement.

This is where religions have to step in and work closely with government to encourage families to continue to grow and to also keep both families in the home. I will never make excuses for the people I know, but I do think this is an area where men need to step up and recognize they need to discontinue behavior that is separating themselves from their families. I do not excuse women, but I do think many of the problems of families today find the megalomania of men at the problem's heart. There are several posts in the advise forum that illustrate this perfectly.Religious men need to get it together and then religions need to show that there is a place for men within their ranks. Latter-day Saints do a very poor job of this when the percentage of women to men is as steep as it is. I was a deep supporter of the million man march. I wish it could have been established and executed better. I wish it were a movement that everyone could have gotten involved with. What is the the role of government here? I don't know, but I think the government can do something to show that men as a gender group are a welcome part of every dialogue. I also think it is time for men to drop the apathy that bogs us down and holds our heads under the water.

I think it is time to drop the topic entirely.

If you think we are, then you do not know what it means to live in a socialist state.I used to oppose socialist medicine. I did so quite actively on this site a few years ago, but I changed my mind in the last few years and I think we need to drop all pretense and adopt a system like Great Britain's.

I think it will as well. I am actually rather fiscally conservative, however the dime I am tuning on is finding a solution to poverty. Glenn Beck has been going on about progressivism, but to counter at least the progressives are doing something about poverty. Those opposed to the progressive movement think it is up to the poor to fix themselves as if they decided one day: "oh wouldn't it be nice to be poor".Boot-strap solutions to poverty only work for individuals. There are whole classes of people in poverty that need help as a class. I'm a little poor now. If I were interested in a career outside academia, then I would probably go back to the business world. In the last two months I have earned the money I'll need for school doing page-design (and yes, sometimes while I was posting here). One book has hit the press and the other will be complete in the next two weeks. I could do it full-time, but I eventually want to do something else. I was a project manager with AMEX and I could have stayed. Some people just do not have the opportunities I had. Sometimes people need help with education. Somepeople need help with medical bills. When the economically conservative insist through their inaction poverty is the concern only for the poor, they illustrate too well that change must happen.

I don't think so. You've already made your theological truth-claim. You're an atheist. I'm fine with that.There is a common ground. I agree with: "If you believe your god wants you to torture people in order to save them, then that kind of faith is bad, no matter what..." You also said: "Since that wouldn't hurt anybody, I think, there wouldn't be a problem IMO..." I do not believe in conversion by coercion. I generally agree with removing religious edifices from public space. Religion should not be involved in torture, crusades, and territorial theft. Religion has a long history of all these things. My father's Scottish ancestors probably became Catholics when the choice was believe or die. But if an individual's faith does not believe in religious coercion or imposition, why do the critics care what I do or believe?

When you are dealing with guilt and anger at yourself over your guilt, you are never thinking logically. Impassioned, angry, unreasonable guilt never has a foothold in reality. More often than anything else, you are trying to rationalize why you do not belong to the church and why you need to avoid the congregation of the saints. Talk to your bishop and your family. Be courageous and listen to what the bishop says. He will be right. If he decides that excommunication is the correct course of action, then accept it. Repent and return. Mean while, seek a support group. Seek help from people that want you to stay in the church.

I don't know LM. O and his boys are right. Capitalism in the last twenty years has been a disaster for the poor in this nation and internationally. I think it is time to change. How about a compromise? Do you have any ideas for compromise. The status quo is a complete failure economically and rhetorically is dead. Change is needed. I do not think O is on the right track, but the economically conservatism have yet to offer a plan. It has been a long wait. I think something has to be done now.

Oh my . . . The church does and the witnesses to the BoM are revalidated quite often by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve in print and in conference. I want you to find such revalidation for your theory. BTW: there is something new on this. Best get searchin'.I do not think you are able finding current citation. I however challenge you do at least try. Most of your quotes have been outdated by a century. The church thrives on the teachings of living prophets today. The prophet today teaches about the needs of today. If your theory is current church doctrine, you will support every point with modern citation.

Yeah, I think it has completely devolved to silliness.Those silly mormons and their green-jello humor!!!!! Get them! Pitchforks! Torches! Go!!!!

Yeah? Hmmm . . . I guess there are no records of Mormon going up to Canada are there. He's probably a Red Wings fan anyway. Penguins?

A distant cousin then?

Errr . . . I agree. As one guilty of many of the aggressive posts in this thread, I have to admit I do not mind jim being here. I do not like the way he post-scripted his list's explanation, but the list I was fine with.I do not mind anyone being here or anywhere. I am not too concerned with motives, those usually become apparent, but I do concern myself with methodologies. There are really good ways to show opposition and criticism. I support those. I took something said by another poster quite personally. A few of the other members of this board think I was out of line to. I'm still considering what they said. How many forums have you been on? It's not just Latter-day Saints. I get into these kind of things on WoW and Marine Hobby Forums as well. The fish tank fights are the best. You wanna talk about basement-dwelling nerds, these guys are the kings. WoW-heads are a bunch of kool-aid drinkers!!! Personally, when I do cyberfight, I role play with my Star-Wars bobble-head toys. <<fffzzznt goes the Ogre's lightsaber as he parries evangelical storm-trooper blasts slowly making his way through the barrage to make the final strike . . . "uhnnnn" the weeny clone says as he crumples to the floor. The floor shakes as the Ogre performs his ritual dances of celebration {{{{{ah-Ooooooooo}}}}}>> Welcome to the site. you will find all sorts in the LDS community. Most are more sane than I am.

In the same way that atheism doesn't hurt anyone? I wonder who is being hurt by the possession of faith the most. There are many opposed to faith. The way I believe is merely a mitigating circumstance compared to the fact that I do believe in G-d. If faith, regardless of mitigating circumstance, doesn't hurt anyone, then why do critics care?

I'll take your response (and post #97) to mean you have not been to the temple nor you do not understand what is going on there. The symbols in the temple are there to be understood. I told you that if you wanted to understand the church's doctrine regarding the relationship between Adam and G-d, you need to attend the temple often.I think you need to consider every aspect of the discussion. So far, you represent a very superficial aspect of the issue. You are missing something and you are not going to understand it until you begin regular temple attendance. There is more than metaphor and symbology involved in the temple experience. You seriously misunderstand the role of "Adam/Michael". One trip to the temple is not going to do it. The epiphany is not instantaneous. It took me years. Once I saw it, Brigham Young became very clear and KFD was simple and no longer mysterious. The temple is the great demystifier. Late Edit to Restate: You still have yet to provide current citation. The entire discussion is speculation. Speculation is dangerous because it teaches a false-understanding of doctrine. Nothing you say has a foundation in scripture. There is only one scripture that even has G-d and Michael in the same verse (D&C 128.21) and that has nothing to do with your theory. There are no scriptures to show that Michael took upon him the sins of the world -- there is no LDS doctrine supporting the concept either. As for the keys of the kingdom, every key that has been given to humanity is currently being exercised by the first presidency. If anyone returns those keys it will be the sitting prophet. There are also no modern prophets that reiterate your truth-claims claims. No one except Brigham Young ever expounded on it and you have yet to illustrate that you even understand what he said. You make truth-claims with no scriptural or current citations. Your ideas are nothing more than a long string of speculations. Everything you have said is suspect and to be rejected out of hand.

Pam's your mother?!? Did you photoshop your avatar pic, because you look way to young. BTW: Congratulations. I hope you have a great baptism. Right after you get baptized, find your home-teachers and make sure they come out. I recommend the chocolate cake technique. Late Edit: WOOT!!!!!

We don't know what might be going on in eternity. We know it is there. We know we have the opportunity to go. What we don't know is exactly what is going to happen. We don't know what we are going to do. More of the same? I don't know, but I do know Lonely Planet still has not done a travel book on the Celestial Kingdom. Do I have to buy a Rosetta Stone for a Celestial Language? Will I need to bring a pair of galoshes? Sun-glasses? My iPod? A good sci-fi book for the flight? The day-to-day details are a bit sparse. One thing I do know, there will be things to do. Salvation will not be static. I don't even think the T&T Kingdoms will be static. I definitely think there will be things to do and more things to enjoy. I'm praying for cheeseburgers (hold the mayo, pickles, and lettuce, double the onions, tomatoes, and bacon). Late Edit: One thing I am sure of: we'll be wearing party hats, because every one of us will be surprised (I want a pointy, balloon-print one with streamers and a blue elastic band).

I'm not too worried about it. The good socialists out there will see the problem in time and will nationalize the internal debt and prioritize the external debt.

Do you recall Neville Chamberlain from WWII? This is a type of behavior that I find disgusting. I do not think that is the right path to take. Above, PC discusses fundamentalist approaches to evangelism. I do not find it acceptable. I do not think the right way to witness to people is to first tell them they are going to hell, or to uncompromisingly tell them they are wrong, or to never dialogue. LDS missionaries never do this, why would we think it is acceptable?Should we ignore them? Yes, if they would simply go away. Should we ban them at the slightest provocation? While I want to say yes, this would be wrong. There have been antis who misunderstood the church and joined. Should we patiently allow them to post falsehoods about the church unopposed when we know there are investigators? No. It has been recommended that we forward posts that are inflammatory. I have done this occasionally. I don't like to. It's pretty chicken 's' behavior. Nor do I like to PM. I really do not like email and only use it for business (those of you who have emailed me will notice I don't respond often . . . don't feel bad, I don't reply to voice mail either). Not PMing also helps avoid PM flame-wars. I am not earning money here, so why do something I'm not comfortable with. I do not like social net-working. I've been on face book for over 2 years and I barely added my fiftieth friend. My last status update: [the Ogre] hates earwax! I only have seven here. Social net-working takes too much work. That leaves me, with my myriad hang-ups, few options. 1) Be honest. 2) Respect when respect is reciprocated. 3) Let it all hang-out on the forums and occasionally on the blogs. 4) Know who my real friends are. 5) Ignore post-padders or people who write posts that won't fit in my browser window. 6) Never create scripture strings. 7) Play Dr.T's games. 8) Oppose methods and beliefs instead of individuals. Nowhere does it say I have to be nice or allow people breathing room. Trolls like antis do not deserve respect as they NEVER show any. I fail as a Chr-stian in a couple areas. One is I have found it impossible to be a peacemaker with people who don't want peace.

Did you feel the spirit to offer free spritzes of binacca?

Do you want the role Adam, also known as Michael, played in the creation or the earth clarified? Go to the temple. After a lot of temple attendance, the doctrine of the church regarding Adam/Michael and his relationship to El-him and Jeh-va will be obvious. The interdependent roles of the G-dhead will also be explained. You are using this section of the KFD out of context. This is merely Joseph restating how we learn every thing "precept by precept". Even after we die, there will be much to do to continue our progress so we can take advantage of Chr-st's atonement and resurrect. It will not be instantaneous. It never has been. We have a lot to learn and plenty of time to do it in.

And with Chamberlainesque charity and appeasement we continue to smile and be kind to people who hate us more than they do abortionists, pornographers, and eugenicists. Be patient with those who see us as the lowest form of humanity.Atheism and cultural suicide is better than what those you would appease want of us.