the Ogre

Either that or they're afraid of the water. I wonder how'd they feel about a jello baptism? Jello being such a big deal for Latter-day Saints, I wonder if its an alternative.

AJ: You know what, I have asked you to show how Latter-day Saints deny grace. I don't want that anymore. Justice wants you to discuss Baptism. I don't. I have hectored you and poked fun at you. Why? Simple. You are clearly antagonistic. I'm fine with that. Antagonism might be my only redeemable quality. But you don't know what I want. I want you to think of the conversion of Nicodemus, a Pharisaic Rabbi, and focus on the positives. Basically: "That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. (1 Cor 2.5)" You are following in the predictable footsteps of other men. Show us the power of G-d that we don't know that you know we are missing. Remember: We are Chr-stians. We believe in Grace. We believe in the atonement. We believe in salvation. Do not focus on what you think is wrong about us! Focus on what we are missing! There is no way to be a good witness if you are constantly negative.

Jim: I must have had you in mind when I was reading my scriptures this morning, because I found something that might be useful to you right from the mighty pen of Paul: We are all to avoid the corruptible crown. We need that perfect crown. That is why we run so hard, just as Paul does, to win that crown. Isn't this cool? You believe that by saying the race exists you'll win. Latter-day Saints are pulling up their shorts and lacing their shoes and running, running, running knowing the end is in sight, knowing we need the coach to run beside us whooping it up, encouraging us to keep moving, keep running, keep putting one step in front of another and eventually we'll make it knowing we need the coach's help. You keep having faith in the race. We'll keep lacing-up and running. I hope we both make it.

But do you do so out of sympathy, friendship, common-cause, or arrogance?(as per your response to Ram: talk is cheap)

No the L-rd provided a purpose for spiders: being stomped on!

I love spiders too. They are one of the best reasons for playing World of Warcraft: killing!I make sound effects when I'm hacking away at one: crunch, crunch, stomp, stomp, hack, hack.

No, who G-d is has nothing to do with the Great Plan of Happiness. We know that H- is, but after that we do not need anything else. Anything else is a red-herring, a distraction from what is important. Next, I am glad you believe Brigham is a prophet, but so is Thomas S. His testimony counts for more today then does Brigham's. The prophets between Brigham and Thomas have eroded all Michael/G-d theories to the trivial and moot (nice thing that revelation). Time to leave the board games behind and get to work. Don't worry about G-d, H- can take care of H-mself.

Oh c'mon Koz, if deity is merely a social-creation and you're here yakkin' with us, that makes any deity your deity, too. Own-up man. You like hangin' with us dirty ol' mormons cause you are one.

You know, Ogres shower and use deodorant before going into public. I think we'll have to be subtle and get someone to gift some to our troll friend here.

Interesting that you missed the part about Modern Revelation. But why would anyone care what you have to say when you are merely cutting and pasting from the work of anti-mormons. I've pointed out that I don't like apologetics, well I dislike skeptics as well. Both pursue a fool's gold.You sound just like aj4u. Maybe you are his little sock-puppet (look, ma, no strings), or maybe you know him. Perhaps his name is "Gorgeous George" and yours is "Pretty Penny." Tag teaming the amateur circuit before you can get to the pros and pasteurize the masses in Mongolia (where if you haven't heard, we just organized a stake). Are you here to save a bunch of dirty cultists or are you here merely for the scrap?

I'm with ya, dude. My kids are Korean Americans.

Well, Jim when you wake up tomorrow and take a look-see, you have just explained perfectly the LDS belief in works. Have a good night.Justice: Do you think what AJ says violates the Forth Article of Faith? Aaron

Then why are you commenting on LDS beliefs regarding salvation? I don't need your permission, your response is verification.

So does everyone else. Even Jim does. He just has trouble with LDS ideas about getting there.

I am glad you pointed out your support of AJ's post on baptism. I pointed out on another thread how it dovetails perfectly with LDS doctrine (we might word things a little differently). However, below you are responding to LDS beliefs regarding salvation. You can believe what you will. Funny to say you didn't mention LDS in your post. You were responding to a post about LDS doctrines of salvation. I think your post had everything to say about LDS beliefs.So you didn't say: By saying you do not accept heaven as some sort of prize, you are saying we do at least by implication. I also was quoting you in the post you are so unhappy about. I find it interesting you would condemn the beliefs of the LDS Senior Head Moderator on a forum called LDS.net. I think she can say what she wants here without correction. Not only that, I think she might just happen to know what she's talking about (she being the oldest person on the site except the oft-noted Ben Raines).So, the final question: are you one of those who came here to witness the truth to mormon-cultists?

If you allow Latter-day Saints to believe what we want, why were you so quick to smear LDS concepts of salvation as only "some kind of pay back for being a good little boy and doing my works." It has been stated sufficiently that Latter-day Saints believe in Grace and yet we still value what you consider some type of dirty word: work. I think all Chr-stians value works like marriage, baptism, teaching children, and missionary out-reach. I know many Chr-stians think simply stating ones faith without doing anything about it is "empty faith." Latter-day Saints concur.I understand you may disavow and deny Latter-day Saint claims to Grace. I think you ought to at least recognize we have the right to believe as we will without condemnation.

Okay, I'll accept you believe Latter-day Saints deny "Grace". I am fine with that.Why would you deny me the right to believe differently than do you?

So, you do not accept the concept of "heaven"?

I agree with that. My ex followed Confucius and as such did not believe in the bible either before she joined.

But by saying that, you are confusing the difference between Celestial glory and that of Terrestrial glory. Faith alone, in my opinion, gets you only to the Terrestrial kingdom. Faith and the obedience to the L-rd's commandments grant Celestial glory.

Okay the poll is closed, now I want to know why anyone would vote that racial-purity is self-evident for celestial glory?

The real criminals are the ones renting our to newly married couples. Or young families.

Not unless they are LDS doctrine. BTW: there is tons in this thread to show the veracity of these two kingdoms as a part of our belief system.Don't believe me or do, I don't care. I wonder if the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms will coexist on the earth as separate dimensions? Now that is some real make-belief.

Well you don't (regarding LDS doctrine clashing with the Bible . . . you still haven't even tried to prove that to anyone on this thread). I am fine with this (reserving the right to change my mind) except you refused to provide citation for your quotes (maybe even which translation of the bible you are using). Tsk tsk tsk.My question for you is: where does it say in LDS doctrine that we deny salvation by grace or the grace of G-d? I want to see that. Your only transparency has been animosity. I am waiting for your Chr-stian charity.Don't hold back. We have been honest with you about the "troll" label. I think you should be just as honest.

Interestingly enough, I think eventually, before any final judgements by G-d can be made the existence of G-d will be obvious.Pessimism is hilarious. I'm glad there are those who are happy to self-define and reinforce a position of polar-opposition. Being so simple is easy and makes life livable: no huge concerns and the option to just say "no", not listen, and not care is always available, because it just isn't important to life and co-existence right now. The real fun though is to do so on a religious forum hoping the zealots, the deluded G-d-nuts, the guys who think faith in the unverifiable is somehow a viable intellectual position will pour out of the wood-work to attempt to cast the very intelligent in some type of state of embarrassment or some assignment to "hell". The real advantage to atheism is not believing in a cop-out like agnosticism, because who can argue with an undefinable argument. Whatever. You want to ask: okay. You want to mock our belief in G-d: okay. It is okay as long as our dirt rubs off, right? Thank goodness you wouldn't believe in proof, most of us wouldn't be able provide it anyway. None of us are G-d. We're just people.