the Ogre

Okay, I suck. I once prayed for the Utah Jazz during the finals the second time around. I have never prayed for a bug after I squished it including the bee that stung me. Mosquitoes? No. Cockroaches? No. Most spiders? No. Lobster? Yes, but that was before I ate it.

Then let it die out. The discussion is fuel to already burning fires.

If there are anti-Evangelical Latter-day Saints who monetarily support and/or opperate anti-Evangelical Ministries and websites that publish books, pamphlets, and distribute talking points, let me know. They won't know what happened to them. I will be very thorough.Do not confuse this with the MTC or CES, they do not target specific groups with any type of negativity. They are only parts of our official, general approach to evangelism.

That letter is great. I wonder how it goes with LDS bishops.

When I was the first counselor of the Camp Red Cloud Branch in Uijongbu one of our members was a chaplain serving the 2ID (this was 2002). He explained some of the changes the military had made and how wonderful it was that he was no longer considered a Protestant by the USArmy. In 1986 when I was stationed at Camp Humphreys, the post chaplain assured me that there we no mormons in the entire country and that I would be very happy with one of the services held there at the post chapel. The next day, I ran in the missionaries in Anjung Ri (I was being initiated by my unit that night . . . oy vey!). They gave me their card. I called them and found out where the services were (Osan AFB thirty to forty-five minutes on the bus to the north). Yes, I was a raving drunk the entire time I was in the military, but I did get to church most of the time (no coffee though, I still associate the smell of coffee with the row of hairy, trucker butt-crack visible every morning at the local Flying J shoveling down breakfast and guzzling black-tar coffee in styrofoam cups). I have only ever met two LDS USArmy chaplains and only one Orthodox Jewish Chaplain, but they are out there even if the nice mormon and jewish kids stay out of trouble.

This has changed. The church and the DOD came to an agreement. There is a mechanism inplace over to the Y that resolves this disagreement. It is a military chaplain's graduate program.

It is not that simple. You need to talk to your bishop there buddy. Tell him you think the Michael is G-d theory is correct doctrine and that if it is not then the church is teaching false doctrine.You really need to have a sit down with your bishop. We have had several posters come forward about sexual sin and everyone said to them to go to their bishop. What you are saying here is as serious an issue and the ramifications are far more dangerous for the church as a whole than the individual sexual-sins discussed on this site. People have been excommunicated for both. The ones that never come back though are the Adam/G-d theorists. You need to talk to your bishop.

I met a guy once who does the same thing at the point of the mountain up to Draper. What they do not have are paid LDS Chaplains like the military does. There is not a single one in the entire US prison system (I might be wrong, I haven't double checked this since I wrote a paper on this topic in 2006).

Jim, I won't lie to you, your final paragraph is quite upsetting. At the same time I am on your side in the two points above. I have discussed them in other threads and this problem has been discussed in conference. It is disgusting and as wrong as I was treated when I was a teen-ager. My brothers and I have felt the rejection of Latter-day Saints as well. We were all rebellious and had strong counter-culture leanings. We were not welcome in school and often corrected from the podium by the then bishop. During WWI and II my great-grandmother was a nurse in Salt Lake. She had a heavy german accent. There were patients who were convinced she was poisoning them. There were many who petitioned the hospital administrators to have her fired. Those petitioners and my grandmother were LDS. I have started several threads that deal with racism. It is alive and well in Utah, but none of these make the church any less true. It convicts the members.Jello-belt Mormons have a long way to go before they are perfect. We, as a people, are still an evolving culture just like the rest of the country. DO not think though the bible-belt is any more a happy place or free of bigotry. There are a great many evengelicals who fly the stars-and-bars from their homes and actively fight community integration. Many still fight congregational integrity. In this area, both evangelicals and Latter-day Saints have a lot to do. The two points above however do not deal with doctrinal issues for either Evangelicals or Latter-day Saints. Neither point out how false a religion is. These points convict the members not the structures. This is true. My dad's parents will not live here. They are LDS and have served several temple missions at the Chicago temple. My brother and his very jello-belt wife now live in Edmond Oklahoma rather than here in Utah because of the narrow-minded members here. I have always been happier in church outside of Utah than in. I love church in South Korea the most. Korean members are great fun. This is the one area where you are right, but it is not doctrinal. It is not even a practice. It is because individuals in both faiths tend to be morons.

What if I believed G-d, recognized the validity and necessary stature of science, and considered reason a valuable tool for human interaction?

There is a Korean proverb your wife might know: "If you don't know, how am I supposed to tell you?"

As FYI, there are two LDS volunteers working with a small group of inmates as we post. The Stake sends them. LDS Family Services sent us a pretty substantial library kit to supplement our LDS section. No Problem. Here is my original text: You have yet to do so directly, but there are many who have. If you are a committed evangelical and have confidence in your faith, why would I want to pull you away from it (besides, I listened to your talk this morning, you go way past the time limits allowed). You work in an area that a Latter-day Saint would not be welcome in (institutional glass-ceilings and all that). Your work is very important. Years ago on LDSTalk, we clashed on priest-craft. I still think it is a true principal, but should I hold that belief against you? Should I use that as a hammer to chip-away at your faith? Today, I went after someone for promulgating false LDS doctrine. I think what he is doing is just as wrong as anti-mormonism. I confronted him on it and I hope he changes. I recognize that attacking mormons is not false-evangelical teaching, but it is un-Chr-stian. I think that right there would be good enough a reason for you to at least encourage others to be consistent and considerate in their approach. You deny post-modernity? If so, then you should have said something. I think post-modernity is cute but limiting. Equal pay for equal play is too important to who I am.

PC:I agree with that sentiment. Where is your censure of Jim? You comment on what Snow and I have to say and yet say nothing publicly about how wrong Jim is. I respect the list he posted. I even respect his elaboration, however I do not excuse the final paragraph of post #75 in this thread. You in fact have insisted in the last two weeks that we have to provide the burden of proof. This type of comment is no different than the naked attacks by pilgrim2, aj4u, and jim108. Latter-day Saints are not required to prove anything. Either you walk on the same path as do we or you do not. I am very comfortable saying I walk on the path of salvation joining every Chr-stian in the world so long as they are not sniping at my flanks. This is the line that really gets me going. No one in the church invited the attack on Haun's Mill. No one in the church suggested hacking LDS sites was a welcome manner of interaction. No one in my family has ever edited the Wikipedia entry for any other church because we simply believe differently. Latter-day Saints have every right to believe what we will. We are not part of any problem because we simply exist. There is no guilt to go around or to share. No one should be held guilty or should be judged guilty for their religious beliefs as if we had committed some type of crime. No burden of proof is necessary and no one has to prove us wrong. Scatter those crumbs. Someone might bite. Snare them if you can. Domesticate them if you can. None of those crumbs require truth or burdens or facts or faith. They are only the leavened bread that on holy days is purged from the house and is left for the beggars, rats, and pigeons.

Dangerous to the Church? Only if they're afraid of speculation, discussion, and intellectual curiosity. We believe all the prophets of this church.. to be .. well.. Prophets. All Prophets carry the same authority, as far as I know. Sometimes I believe the Church is scared of intellectual curiosity. We can't use Joseph Smith quotes? He lived far more than 10 years ago. The diary of Nutall has temple ceremonies recorded.. it's credible. It's not doctrine.. but it's valid. I want you to prove what you are saying with current quotes to prove what you are saying is current doctrine. If not, then it is speculation and on the fringe of the church if not outside it. It is dangerous because it teaches false doctrine. Talk to your bishop about your G-d/Michael stuff, but preface your comments that you freely publish it on the internet and see what happens next.Nothing you say has a foundation in scripture. There is only one scripture that even has G-d and Michael in the same verse (D&C 128.21) and that has nothing to do with your theory. There are no scriptures to show that michael took upon him the sins of the world. As for the keys of the kingdom, everyone that has been given to humanity are currently being exercised by the first presidency. If there is anyone that returns the keys it will be the sitting prophet. You make truth-claims with no scriptural or current citations. Everything you have said is suspect and to be rejected out of hand.

Next you'll be telling us is that you advocate for the Davidic Servant.What you just said is as dangerous to the church as the list Jim produced in the anti-mormon thread if not more so. Nothing you said is supported by church doctrine. Everything you said is the spew of apologists and speculation. If you want to be believed, you better provide citations for each truth-claim that dates no more than ten years ago. For your citations to be credible, they need to come from the First Presidency or a member of the Twelve.

You think we are wrong, so why do you care? Wrong or right is not a concern for a person who walks another path. I am not concerned with the path you are taking in life and as such you should not care in the least. Sit on a bench and take a look. Scatter a few crumbs.I think most Chr-stians should do as some anti-mormons say and think of us as sub-humans. How can we be part of humanity if we are so wrapped up in a cult (your doctrinal term is just as hateful as accusing us of being satanists) and can not operate the grey matter G-d gave us? Ignore us. Don't look at us. Blame us for our existence. We are the simple primates in the human family. Scatter a few crumbs and walk your way. Eventually ugly creatures like us will devolve and we can be put in zoos. Don't be concerned. We just might not be able to know what is right and wrong. We're the obstinate children who refuse to learn. Just another step in the devolutionary path. Scatter a few crumbs, eventually we will go away.

Simple, they have to choose if they really want to stay in business or not. My son eventually wants to open an artisan bakery. He will sell what the customers are interested in. If that means selling some wines and coffee, then so be it.I do not think there is a problem with it. What about Latter-day Saints who own strip-clubs? Don't be surprised. Stranger things have happened. I think this would be a problem. I do not like those kind of establishments anyway. I think a Latter-day Saint in that industry might want to look carefully at what he is doing.

This is my biggest problem with anti-mormons: Who are they to dictate my beliefs?Fault? There is no such concept. I will not compromise with people who insist on distortions. I have spent years studying the faiths of the world, but I still do not judge what is right and what is wrong and I DO NOT PUBLISH FALSEHOODS about other churches. You want change? Start with you. Latter-day Saints do not launch ad hominem attacks on other churches or religions. Ugly? Who asked you? Latter-day Saints are part of the problem? What? Drop our religion and convert to what? The one you attend? Stop believing in G-d altogether? Atheism is better than what you are suggesting. My grandmothers and my mother are at fault? My scottish ancestors are at fault? My jewish great-grandparents are at fault? Just because we believe differently? Just because they converted to a faith they were willing to sacrifice all for, sell all to come to Utah at the turn of the last century to live in a land that does not hate them? Their sacrifice is what is at the root of this problem? You blame them for the propaganda that is displayed all over the web that does not even begin to consult Latter-day Saints about what we believe. My two-year old twin nephews are at fault? Every latter-day Saint on the planet is a part of the problem because we dared to believe in G-d in a way that is different than do you? I am out on the web teaching of the falsehoods of a particular religion? I am accusing someone else of deception? I am willfully changing Wikipedia articles because I am so filled with hate and anger at people who are simply different? I am out hacking church websites for lulz because those mormons are such a pack of insane kool-aid drinkers? Guilt? I am supposed to be filled with guilt because I do not agree with you? I am supposed to teach my children that we believe in a systematically inferior religion? Who asked you to preference yourself to the mighty authority of all thing mormon? Guilt? No one asked for paladin white-knights to come here. Who needs crusaders?

I have heard this rumor. It's not true, but the rumor persists. The church never disallows non-member boys except in very rare occasions.I was a scoutmaster in LDS wards twice. I have helped seventeen boys earn their eagle scout. Four of those boys were not LDS. Many of the young men I have worked with are not LDS. I did have one bad experience with a mother of a young man who was not LDS. We asked him to no longer come with us because he would bring alcohol from home to campouts and get drunk, he used profanity incessantly, and he would interrupt prayers and start profaning G-d. This was hard to deal with. The bishop and the Stake-president made the decision. I support them, but I sometimes feel bad about it. That young man is now serving time up at the point of the mountain. I hope he is not using his experience as a reason that society deserted him, but he was so angry. I saw him when he graduated highschool (my oldest' same class and year) and he and his mother berated me, my parents, my brothers, and my grand-parents until a UVU-cop had to step in. I know there are nightmare stories that non-members have in the jello-belt. I do not know what I can do about it. Probably nothing except try to be a good neighbor. I try. I am as direct off-line as on. I did cheer when the cops cleared out the meth-lab across the street, but those guys were all inactive members. What can you do? Some people are looking for excuses. All I can do is be the best I can and hope for the best.

I actually liked your post. We are all clear. I am very vigilant and suspicious of the beverage and my intentions for them. I am also very knowledgible about food and the alcohol in them. If I were going to a reastaurant with another member and they did not know what would still have booze in it, I could generally answer. I can almost always tell by smell and my reaction to it.A word of advice, be very suspicious of desserts especially the oh so yummy sweet, moist, and fruity tasting chocolate cakes.

It's very simple. To me (not all Latter-day Saints, just to me) the word "mormon" is the same as the "k-word" is for jews. That is how it was used all through my youth as I was growing up (I was an Army brat, most of my father's assignments were in the south: Ft. Bragg, Ft. Hood, Ft. Sill, Ft. Benning, and Ft. Campbell). We also had assignments in the north and in DC. Nothing changed. Mormon was a word of hate. I did not move to the jello-belt until I was almost sixteen. It was there that I first heard the word used neutrally or out of fun (man, Marsh H. is such a molly-mormon).My parents and my siblings all feel the same way. My brother thinks the church could win quite a few law-suits. He thinks it is admirable that the church does nothing. I think it is chicken, but I am not in a position of authority so my opinion is meaningless. The cult thing is meaningless. Those guys could care less what we called our church. They would still brand us cultists. My interpretation of the word is personal. I do not think anyone else needs to worry about what I think. I will always chase after the press and other organizations for their use of it. I do not care if individuals use it. It is nice when they ignorantly self-identify so easily.

Do you know what is interesting Jim? We know. These are the jumping points for people who have a issues with the church. Many of us have read the anti-mormon websites and publications thoroughly. It is good to bring up those points.I do not think someone who have been told those beliefs is automatically an anti. I also do not believe think all of those are a lie. Some of them are true. Most are twisted versions of the truth. Keep inquiring. I think my only request is acknowledging that we are articulating our positions, not necessarily trying to convert you (that is up to G-d).

You might as well ask if it's possible to find a stalk of celery without a little dirt on it picked right from the ground.I also do not recommend "boiled down" approached to anything. They tend to be very one-sided and overly reduce all the issues. Reductionism is a huge problem with both religion and politics.

Sorry. As an insomniac, I often do not have sympathy for those who can sleep:taz:. Wake up and get on the stick . . . blah blah blah shoulder to the wheel and all that.

I think the need of a constant laugh button is always appreciated by both Latter-day Saints and those that might self-define as our polar-opposite. Everyone needs a good sense of humor. I think I would like everyone's laugh button should be right in the middle of the forehead so anyone can slap it and heal the other through laughter.This of course means, there is the common agreement of the gifts of the spirit as described by Paul. There is a great thread on this already, but I might add the "spiritual gift of a laugh button."