the Ogre

But H- did to fulfill the law. I also think the Pharisees would have made a big stink about H-s bachelorhood had H- not been married (same argument stands for every person in the Old and New Testaments if their marriages are not mentioned in scripture). It is not lawful for a man to be a bachelor by choice by a certain age if one is an Orthodox Jew, particularly if he is going to take a podium or assume responsibility in the synagogue (and thus all the arranged marriages). No one ever argued about J-sus' right to teach in the synagogue.We do not know who his wife or wives were (polygamy was an acceptable Jewish practice during H-s time, just as it is for Yemeni Jews today) and since it did not matter much to name H-s wife or wives, then it does not matter at all now. Wingnut and others are right (as are you), the entire point is of H-s marriage is pure speculation. Considering the nature of the Law and the many conversations he had with the Pharisees, I believe H- was, but it is also not that important or necessary for my salvation. Here is the ready deconstruction for the whole argument of whether H- needed marriage in this life for H-s exaltation: H- was already a god. H- was already a member of the G-dhead. H- was already exalted. Marriage for J-sus was not a matter of H-sown exaltation, rather it was a matter of law. As has been mentioned, Mary was of Magdala and a close follower and friend of J-sus. We do not know much other about her except what is mentioned in some of the Apocrypha or early Catholic tradition and since some of that is wonderfully imaginative and fantastic it is not of much value to Latter-day Saints or very credible and so we do not go beyond what Talmage taught and stay happy with that.

PC:First, I love your post. This is one of the best ones I have ever read on this forum. I might be biased though . . . I love the temple and all the symbols involved (re: the oxen, imagine the laver . . . erm, cough, cough, mikvah bath . . . in front of Solomon's Temple and the wandering tabernacle). Second, I would think you would understand your own question. It is tied to the age old issue of clergy: why aren't more people coming out? There are a million answers. I have my own as per why I don't go as often as I should (time, time, time . . . you can't go on Sundays don'tcha 'no' -- I still make it in once a month, but I can go more often, I go to school ten minutes from one of my favorite temples and the absolute busiest; the Provo Temple). Third, going to the temple not only requires a process (there are even classes), but if one is getting their recommend honestly and in faith, then it might take quite a bit o' time to repent for all that sinnin' we do as humans. It took me two years of hard work 'cause I was just a naughty, naughty, back-slidin' boy. Forth, thanks again for your thorough post. I love it. Aaron the Ogre

False Doctrine for whom? Moksha is right. We can't judge them based on their understanding of their own faith. Latter-day Saints believe differently . . . sort of (but how is always fun to investigate and important to know).Thinking about it, at the core of our church, are we not also a peace and justice church (minus the coffee bit)? We don't have join political clubs as a congregation, but we believe in peace, and we believe in justice. We believe in equality (not just the equivalency that some of these reference sites imply). We believe in suppressing the negative aspects of society as a whole that cause poverty, war, and division: racism, greed, pride, ignorance, class/caste, hate, envy, etc. . . . Napoleon had it right about what causes one to go to war and so we fight hunger, illiteracy, want, etc. . . . Is this not part of the forth mission of the church? Is this not part of the Helping Hands projects? Is this not what Relief Society is supposed to be about? Home-teaching? Perpetual Education Fund? Humanitarian Aid Fund? Missionary Work? Temple Work? We are a peace and justice church without the politics or club-membership. I brought this up because I had never heard of it. I like new religious movements. This is more than a case of false doctrine or been there done that. This is information about the world at large. We need to know everything we can about the faiths in our communities without blowing them off with the label of "false doctrine". I also started this in a new thread because I did not want this survey to be a distraction from the discussion about the CoC's new revelation (yes, I have a low opinion of them, but that is simply reciprocating their low opinion of the LDS Church and that they are furthering themselves from the gospel every-time their conference convenes). I do not think you meant to come across so negatively -- the OP is long :). I just found the application of the peace and justice movement to religious groups interesting and possibly counter-intuitive.

Exactly! I agree. If one is not on their side of the spectrum, does that automatically mean other faiths oppose their point of view? That was one of my problems with the Peace and Justice Program at UVU. I don't agree with all their aims, but that does not mean I am some type of hawk or warmonger (I am neither). It come across as a type of religious elitism on further reading of the movement and also trying to keep one foot in the religious world and one in the secular world.

I've been out of it for a while. I then come back and find the above (Moksha, I love you).To find out more, I did a quick google search and found this survey. I don't think Latter-day Saint congregations score well just based on the WoW type questions. I think this is quite fascinating. My mentor at UVU is one of the founding voices in their Peace and Justice committee and academic program and encouraged the development of the Peace and Justice Club on campus (or was, I don't know if there is one still). I do not support many of their aims, so I was not associated with them. I do not think she would find it possible for religious people to support Peace and Justice Organizations.I know we would not be welcome to some of the organizations listed here regardless of our scoring on this survey, but don't we espouse many of the philosophies in Peace and Justice Organizations?

My thoughts exactly.

I do often if I'm chasing down an anti- or going after some psuedo-apologist. As for the rest of it, why worry? Transparency is a buzz-word right now. Shouldn't we pursue this? Not everyone is a dingus on this site like me and infact most people here are great, but have the normal life drama that everyone else has. The honesty is refreshing and personally, I find it the most attractive bit on this forum.

OGRES! Ogres of the world unite!

I too spent a lot of time lurking this site back in the day many a day ago and I started posting when I decided on a few things that were personal. One deciding point for me was that I didn't think I would get booted right off the bat as long as I watched my Ps & Qs. In all the years I've been on, I've only received one warning from Pam (woot). I am not the most active of posters. My posting is in ebbs and flows depending on my homework load and internet access. My semester is practically over and all the work is done (no finals, just papers) so I have a little time to cast a few posts. I do know that when I decided to post, it was not because I was humble or had pretenses of humility. Far from it. I, like many Latter-day Saints who happen to also be human and not the mythical mo-clones of LDS rumor and legend, have issues with humility and what is pride. I hate the pride of certain classes of Latter-day Saints (McConkieites and Psuedo-apologists and of course real apologists--true worshipers of the mighty Rameumpton-stand those). Nope, I started posting 'cause I had been tossed off many other EV sites because I was LDS or a little too assertive in my opinions and pretentious Latter-day Saints bug the crap out of me. Yeah, I'm a natch on the rudeness point. I don't even have to practice in front of the mirror or take tips from my wife or anything (and since I'm not even married anymore, there would be no chance of that). The thing about the non- mo-clones on this site is that we are trying to work out our salvation. We are people don'tch ya 'no'. Have you lurked any of the Marine Fish forums? Those guys are the real hateful bunch. They make tea-partiers out to be as liberal as Obama and soft like J. Leiberman. We really are a mild bunch. And thus the genius of Heather et al. I am so glad this site is here. Not everyone knows their religion and so don't know where to turn. LDS.org is intimidating and the folks at church can be a little surprised if you haven't memorized Mormon Doctrine like they have (it's a book by Bruce R.) and have a hard time not showing it. I think of this as a plus. We are not zealots for the most part. We are educated and from that have learned to question. I question everything including my faith and the doctrinal underpinning behind it. I question and despise the apologist power-structure in LDS academic circles and find CES non-gen-authorities to be an annoying bunch (and yes I do know some of them). It is good that we challenge what we have found, have fallen-away, and then have came back with real testimonies and a stronger understanding what being a Latter-day Saint is all about. I have always had a testimony, but I had WoW obedience issues for much of my late teens and early tweens (the WoW bit has nothing to do with my 80lvl Tauren Prot War either, so don't go making assumptions K). I worked out most of it, but still back-slide a bit (I'm drinking a liter of Coke Zero as I type). I do not speak for the church nor the membership, I speak for me. Anonymity is everything on forums. My avatar looks like me ('cept I had to shave for grad school up to the Y), but there is no way Pam looks like a ginger bread cookie (she is undoubtedly far more beautiful and sweet in person). This anonymity is not only a safety net, but also an excuse to say things without repercussions. Now, I am a bit rude in person and definitely a bit more direct than is acceptable in the egg-shell strewn hallways of LDS ward-houses, so what I say here is not out of the norm for normal conversation, but this is not normal: have you every been to Utah? If you knew how we drive (not really all that dangerous, just rude as the hot burny place mentioned in the bible LDS don't really believe in), then you would not be surprised at the posts on this site. If I am rude to you, you can not give me knuckle-sandwich over it if you saw me in the Wilk or at Burger Supreme 'cause you don't know me. If I am rude to you, however, I will apologize if I am in the wrong because like I said, I am naturally rude and do not see that much wrong with it and since you're busy being objective and an outsider, nor should you. Get over the idea that we are a bunch of mo-clones. I might be the only zoobie in this thread and I am a Utah Valley Native (I graduated from Provo High in 1986), but that does not mean I am like the newly minted RMs I run into or see everyday on campus (I even take my 2l bottle of Coke to the library and drink it publicly in my study cube). My only feedback for you is that objectivity is impossible. Don't pretend. Biases are cool and I am glad I have mine. One day, I will be perfect, but I'm not now. I am working on it surprisingly, but why pretend now? I am an opinionated person, why pretend to be objective? I think the concept is silly and not worth the time or the effort. G-d H-mself isn't objective. H- represents H-s point of view and that is why we have to learn while we are on this earth what is H-s will, so we will become perfect in H-m.

I lived in Uijongbu for two years and Korea for eight. The English Branch is easy to get to by subway. I lived close to one of the local LDS wards in Uijongbu and sometimes attended there (last time I was there, there were four pairs of LDS Missionaries; 1 being a senior couple and 1 being sisters). It was fun and they loved having me.There are other Americans in Uijongbu, mostly related to the military, but that is down-sizing if they have not disappeared all together. There are a number of Evangelical Christians there and some are quite nice, but some are openly hostile once they find out you are LDS, but this is nothing new. Here is the advice I give everyone going to Korea: 1) Take a roll of TP with you everywhere (the restrooms do not have TP in them). 2) Take wipes everywhere (the toilet-seats will need it). 3) Take hand-sanitizer with you everywhere (there is often no soap in the bathroom). 4) Take lots of your own shampoo (Korean shampoo is harsh and great big clumps of your hair will come out every time you shower if you use it). 5) Take your favorite toothpaste, deodorant, perfumes/colognes, and soap (American brands are hard to find and are very expensive and Koreans rarely use deodorant). 6) Take an umbrella everywhere. Acid rain is real and loves to eat hair. There are good ones available cheap. Make one one of your first purchases. 7) Do not drink the water!!!!!!! Koreans don't for very good reason. 8) Do not go out at night alone. Crime is low in Korea, but crime against women in Korea happens only when the woman is alone and crime against women is not reported as it is viewed to be the fault of the woman. If you can, get a female room-mate (Korean or otherwise), that would be very, very, very good. 9) Find the English book-stores in Seoul, there are two good ones on the blue subway line. I like the Chong-ro Mun Go and the Kyobo Mun Go. The trains and buses are great chances to read. 10) Eat lots of Korean Food. Do not worry about eating Dog, Cat, or Goat, it is hard to find and since you are a woman, you are not expected to eat it. Korean women do not. Korean food is great and quite spicy, but not everything is. There are quite a few yummy non-spicy foods. If you need western food, every fast-food place on the planet is in down-town Uijongbu (me and my friends often hung out at Popeye's) and of course Seoul. I love Korea and miss it. Be smart and cautious. There are around 800,000 people in Uijongbu (even though it does not seem that way) and has many of the same problems big American cities have. Keep your eyes open. American women often attract the wrong type of attention -- please be very careful, but also have loads of fun. It is a great place and most Koreans are fantastic people. Go to the historic places when you have a chance. Be prepared for an urban-adventure and keep a sharp-eye open for chances to see the countryside. There are nice day-hikes above Uijongbu in the mountains and small forests. Aaron the Ogre

I grew up calling them pligs, also a perjorative term. I sometimes still do. Let's face it, they are Mormons. They fit nicely in the large over-culture of Mormonism just like members of the Community of Christ, Bickertonites, and Strangites. While they are Mormons, they are not Latter-day Saints. I do not mind calling them Mormon Fundamentalists even though the term is misleading. Personally, I hate the term Mormon. It is as dirty a term as plig or other discriminatory terms. It needs to be dropped from common use. But, that is my personal opinion. There are a great many who love the term and self-identify with it. It is just a dirty smear to me, however. I am a Latter-day Saint and thus separate myself from any fundie-polygamist out there.

Regarding the natural progression of man, you contradict yourself. You said two things you believe: 1) Joseph Smith is a Prophet of G-d and 2) that you believe in the Three Degrees of Glory. What do you think the third degree of Glory is? 1 Moses 39: For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Immortality is a long time and there is no way we're gonna be playin' the harp that long (can you imagine the calluses). We will continue to grow and learn and progress eternally in perfection. Part of being a Latter-day Saint is believing that perfection must be improved on and that we will do so, must do so eternally. AS we do so, we become as G-d is and Joseph Smith, through the translation of Moses reveals that this is the actually work, purpose, and glory of G-d. Have you ever wondered why we were created? Was it because G-d loves harp music and wanted the perfect choir? I don't think so. It was love and as the perfect parent, G-d wants us to have what H- has. And why wouldn't H-? Besides, I'd never make it as a harpist. I'd always be in the back of the giant harp band playing the arm-pit flute.

There is no real explanation for the revelation and declaration and one is not necessary. Ignore whatever you hear about it. Both reasons you list (immature members and racial dilution) are offensive to many people (including me). Some of the other things I have heard explaining the logic behind the declaration are equally offensive. What is more important is that every worthy male can receive the priesthood. That's really all that matters and the great thing is this incredibly dark period in the history of the church is now exactly that: history. All priesthood-related discrimination is history and I'm glad we're done with it and I personally could care less for any explanation as to why it was needed; I'm just glad for it. So then as intelligent people we are taught to question everything. You said you believe Joseph Smith is a prophet of G-d; well, so was Spencer W. Kimball. It is not necessary to know why JS received revelation other than he did. The same is true of SWK. Disregard rationalization for revelation from the leadership of the church. Accept the revelation. It comes from G-d, and nothing H- says needs explanation.

Chami:Thanks for the post and very nice prayer. I like that it shows well your frustration. My recommendation: pray more and then be patient. Prayer and patience. Why? A few small prayers don't cut it. You have to pray a lot. Eventually you become accustomed to praying directly to our L-rd. Patience because as you pray more you will learn what the answers are and how the answers were given and then how to pray more effectively. Effective prayers? Ask direct simple questions. Yes/no questions are the best and then meditate on the question after it is asked and read the scriptures. The answer will come, but still be patient and continue to pray. Aaron the Ogre

Very kewl. I'm glad you donated.

No no no . . . I am the one who brought us to this great wo pronounced by those angelic moderators on high. One can always defend intelligence, one can not be direct or creative in illustrating what is the true problem in the OP.It's like saying the real motivation for the current "birther" movement is racism. It's true, but it also pisses the racist-birther people off.

So, is the only purpose of a year's supply to prepare for the apocalypse? I don't seem to have heard that as the stated reason for having one when I listen to GC or read about it in LDS.org. Aren't there other reasons to have have one or is it just so shooting people when the law isn't around is then legitimate? Sounds like the water-wars in rural Utah prior to the Great Depression.

Sorry . . . you are way to pc for that title. It is mine.

See, you still think we are opponents. Discussion and argument never needs a winner.

Nope . . . it is a core philosophical position I base all my studies on: logic is merely another social-construction. All social-constructions are local and reducible. Who opposed the logic of the greeks? Why other greeks, because they were there and knew the logic of their peers were only words and no more actual than other words and thus only rhetoric. For me ill-logic, madness, and relativism are equivalent to and with logic. It's one mode of thought that attempts to imitate the thought of G-d while completely missing the point. The thoughts of G-d fill the universe, logic only fills one portion of it. G-d does not need to be logical: H-'s G-d after all. Who are we to judge? Think about this: it is by and through logic that most atheists base their rejection of G-d, because when you come down to it faith is G-d ignores and supersedes logic. Most of the contemporary logical-thinkers of our time are atheists or agnostics if we are lucky.

Then listen to me when I say evolution is not false. It is a fledgeling science that still needs refinement. Have you never listened to the vitriol of the evolution debate within the science community?I think they are on the right track and are guided for the most part by the Light of Chr-st. Give them time and learn from them and accept all that is good according to the 13th article of faith instead of ignoring the good books and works of good men and women who doing all they can to pull humanity out of the dark-ages and into the light. Did you not notice that evolution and the restoration of the gospel came at the same time? It was a time to restore all things and this is understanding that we need. Does evolution deny G-d? No, only some of the ignorant researchers who think science is the diametric-opposite to faith. Evolution is not. It is more a celebration of G-d, but weak-minded fools only think to accuse instead of finding the truth of the universe in every corner possible. Stop placing nails in the cross of love and reach out without objection to what very well might be as truthful as the Laws of Thermodynamics and the truth in Relativity, Planks Constant, Brownian Motion, and Multi-variable Calculus (given time and a lot more research).

All good. BTW, I love boxers. They are the coolest dogs ever.

Ignorance is bliss. No?

I disagree with you here. Why? G-d is omni-powerful. A M-n with all power Wh- picked a methodology.By using agency and by knowing all the options available, G-d chose a method to create the cosmos that evolution/science has yet to comprehend. Knowing the options is very important to G-dhood. One of those pupae things we all need to go through and why science is so important. G-d can choose to do whatever H- wants. H- is G-d after all, why exclude On-self from one of the gifts given to fallen humanity? To think otherwise is to put G-d in a box. Claustrophobia is horrible, why thrust it upon another?

H- is not fallen; I agree. H- is way too cool for that, but does that stop H-m from being a man. Being a man implies gender unless you are inferring G-d is without gender in the way Nicia indicates or by result of Benjamin Therapy? If so, provide quotes addressing this directly and not as an aside. Conference talks by one of the living twelve or first presidency members please. I am quite interested in your justification for the semantic differentiation. Without splitting hairs, I think male = man.