LeSellers

Not sure where this idea comes from, but as far as I can tell, it's mostly untrue. This chart suggests that teachers earn low-end professional salaries for working nine months per year, with great vacation, great medical and dental benefits, and full retirement. And if we're honest, we will concede that teaching at a public school does not require a great deal of skill; almost anyone with normal abilities and the willingness to complete the training can do it.
 
That is not to insult the fantastic teachers out there, of whom there are many. (I am closely related to at least two of them.) But then, they would be the very first in line to confirm that there are many truly crummy, lousy, awful teachers, and once they've received tenure, they're all but impossible to get rid of.
 
You want teachers to earn mid-level professional wages? Then make them meet the same standards that other mid-level professionals have to meet. Let them prove their teaching chops in a competitive environment, where "tenure" doesn't exist.
 
When I left grad school 20 years ago and took a job as a biomedical engineer, I got paid less than the starting wages for a 0-year-experienced teacher with an MS/MA degree -- and I worked TWELVE months per year, not nine. I worked probably 50-60 hours per week, every week. I could not look forward to getting my lesson plans established in a year or two and then dialing back the hours. And my competitive worth was judged on a semi-annual basis, which would continue forever. No "tenure" for professionals.
 
Having my children in school (part-time) has made me aware of their teachers. To be honest, most seem pretty decent (though I'm frankly shocked at the ignorance of most of them, outside AND EVEN WITHIN their supposed areas of expertise). But a lot of them, not a majority but a frighteningly large minority, are utterly incompetent and/or corrupt. They would not possibly survive more than a year in any competitive situation. Yet they're "educating" our children.

Answer the following questions to determine if you are a closet communist.
 
1. Do you believe the government should put people and the environment before profits by companies?
2. Do you believe the government should legislate equality and social justice?
3. Do you believe the government should radically reform for profit companies to make them more worker friendly?
4. Do you believe the government should allow a person to stay on unemployment until he finds a job?
5. Do you believe the government should start public works programs to rebuild infrastructure, provide affordable housing, and clean up the environment?
6. Do you believe that you are free under democracy?
7. Do you believe the government should expand the food stamp program?
8. Do you believe the government should institute and control all health care insurance?
9. Do you believe the government should have the Social Security program?
10. Do you believe the government should give out cash welfare payments (AFDC)?
11. Do you believe the government should outlaw prayer in school?
12. Do you believe the government should treat behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists/psychologists can understand or treat?
13. Do you believe the government should mandate a high minimum wage?
 
 
If you answered yes to any of these questions, you've got a problem.  I went to various communist web sites and socialist organizations and made up these questions based on the content of those sites.  Every one of these questions is about force, the same as Satan's plan.  He wanted to require everyone to do the right things without giving anyone free agency to choose for themselves. 

Nope I agree with you Vort, it is almost a part time job they are fairly compensated. When you add in the pensions and other benefits they are very well compensated

Making this into its own thread so as not to continue hijacking another.
 
To reiterate: I acknowledge the existence and the valuable contributions of good teachers, without whom our current society would be much weaker and perhaps not even possible. I am not bagging on teachers, but on the constant whining about how "underpaid" teachers are -- what Backroads calls the "teacher-martyr culture". It's phony and incorrect on multiple levels.
 
No one is paid according to his or her direct worth to society. Rather, people are paid based on the demand for their talents and the shortness of its supply. Thus, the beautiful actor who contributes precious little to the betterment of society beyond making blockbuster movies gets paid absurdly out of proportion to the honest policeman, whose contributions to society are much greater by any rational estimate. This is because, difficult though being a cop may be, there are a lot more people who can be policemen than who are pretty enough and trained enough at acting to be able to headline a movie and pull down $300 million. (Okay, I realize this is only roughly true, but you get my point.)
 
I am perfectly okay with raising teacher salaries by 30%. Heck, I'd be all for it -- as long as those teachers were held to the same accountability as any other professional. Their abilities and results should be monitored on a semi-yearly basis, and if they do not perform, they should be fired.
 
But I maintain that the base claim -- that teachers are underpaid for their important services -- is by and large false. According to the chart I pointed to earlier, a teacher at what I would consider an "early mid-career" point of ten years of teaching service with a Master's degree plus 45 hours of class time (likely achieved by required training) would be making a base salary of $52,000. How this base salary compares to their actual salary is not obvious, but this Seattle Times article from September (when Seattle public schools were on strike) claims that the base salary makes up, on average, 81% of a teacher's salary. That suggests that our "average" teacher at early mid-career is making about $64,200 per year. Not a great professional salary for mid-career, but still solidly within the professional salary range. (By comparison, this site claims that a mid-career engineer makes less than $70,500, on average.)
 
(And don't forget, that is for ten months of work, assuming you count the lengthy Christmas holidays as "work time". That is a salary rate of $77,000 per year, a much healthier salary figure, easily besting the mid-career engineer average mentioned above. And this is on top of the benefits and full retirement, a perk which pretty much no one that I know outside of Boeing receives any more.)
 
I am not claiming that teachers are necessarily overpaid. Rather, I am saying that it's false to claim they are underpaid. I realize that I'm goring a sacred cow, and that some (like shermormon) will decry my politically incorrect stance. So be it. If you have reasonable arguments that demonstrate that teachers are underpaid, I'm happy to give them a listen. But I won't toe the line just because that's what the NEA and other teacher's unions like to claim.

There are miracles and MIRACLES. One of the things we must be aware of is ignoring miracles. It is tough to avoid MIRACLES, but miracles are another thing. I'm not talking about the birth of a baby. That's truly miraculous, but it is quite ordinary in terms of frequency and cause'n'effect.
Miracles are quite frequent. We hear about them in Fast'n'Testimony Meeting all the time: a child prays about finding his favorite toy, and lo! and behold! he finds it. I suspect that many of us discount this as coincidence, but I think many or most of these are truly miracles.
I had a question about the concept of "fervent prayer". I fasted, and I went to the Temple. I got an answer there. It was not a "voice", it was not a verse I chanced upon while waiting for the session to begin. It was pure insight. It turned out to be what I already knew, but it was something wholly new, as well.
My sister was in her baby buggy a few days after she was born. We were building a garage — a small tornado came up the driveway, and blew the whole thing down on top of her. I had stacked a couple of garbage cans up next to her a few minutes before the "act of God", and the wall that would have crushed her stopped falling on top of the buggy and her. The car in the garage was smashed and took five weeks to repair — she escaped without a scratch. A miracle? It was not in answer to a prayer, it was not something anyone would have been shocked about. It was a miracle, or, perhaps, a MIRACLE.
Let's not ignore the miracles in our lives. Many are small. They are mundane in some respects. Nonetheless, they are gifts of God. Elder Bednar calls them the tender mercies of the Lord. Whatever you call them, they are wonderful and they are ours.
Lehi

What gives anyone the authority or right to claim that their gospel is not the "other" one.
 
The gospel I "accepted" is the lds gospel, which I believe firmly to be the gospel of Christ as preached by Paul. So how do you reconcile Galatians with my view of things? How come your gospel, whatever is is, isn't the "other" one that's under God's curse?
 
Edit: I'm not just putting this into confrontational terms by way of question. I'm asking you to consider it seriously.

We don't believe that, either. It's far more complex than that, and we do not have all the information we would like on the matter. I believe this out of Father's love for us. If we knew, for instance, that your point of view was correct, then that would give some of us an excuse to feel superior to those who "chose poorly".
This is my own view on how we ended up here, where were are, and when. It is not in any way an official or semi-official position on this question.
Father knew us and loved us before we were born. He knew our needs, our strengths and desires. He knew that I needed to be born in the mid XX to an active LDS family. He knew that Koramiba needed to go to an African family in the ii. He knew that in each case, we would make the best progress we could compared to other alternatives. He knew, perhaps that Koramiba was so humble and hard-working that he didn't need the physical comforts I would enjoy, and that he could grow up in poverty and still be able to accept the Gospel in the Spirit World once he heard it. He knew, perhaps, that I was lazy and proud. That without the Gospel in my earthly life, I would have no chance of accepting it ever. I don't know what He considered when He sent me to my where-when, nor for Koramiba and his.
Why Al Capone or Idi Amin ended up where they were, I do not know. I have faith that He sent them to their where-when because it was the best option for them. Each of us, whether LDS, other Christian, Moslem, atheist, Hindu, is a cherished son or daughter of God. He wants us to return to Him. He would never hurt us without its being for our good. (Sometimes this "good" may be simply to stop us from doing more evil and harming ourselves spiritually further.)
(I know you are not a Calvinist.) It just seems odd to me than anyone could believe that God created people for the sole purpose of watching them suffer endlessly in a fire of sulfur with no end to their torture. This view of God makes Him a monster. It is said that the Hussein boys in Iraq loved to watch people die in horrific ways,. and those ways had to get more and more depraved to satisfy their appetite for cruelty. This is how a Calvinist's god looks to me.
Lehi

:-) I wasn't disagreeing with you (in case that wasn't clear), only adding that I leave the possibility for a wide variety of divine help with mortal tedium always open.
 
Byron added his own paragraph (the one I quoted from your quote), and I was commenting on his words rather than the scriptural.  I think it scripture it's quite clear the Lord was telling his apostles not to worry by any definition of the word, but instead to focus on their call, and he'd take care of their physical needs.  This was a certainty for them.  I see it as a possibility (or a pattern) for us (dependent on both us and His will).
 
Personally, I see no reason to be anxious about the necessities of mortality (as in: fret, chew fingernails, pace, wring hands).  I do see the need to take care of these things (work, save, prepare, and most importantly, be generous).  And I believe if we're focusing our efforts on our own call (in relation to the gospel), rather than on those mortal necessities*, the Lord will help with the necessities (by enabling us to endure trials, by ensuring our efforts provide sufficient yield, by opening up better opportunities, by increasing our natural capacity, by miraculous means, or anything in between).
 
*In other words, do I go to work every day with my foremost thought being how much money I'll make, how to get a promotion or raise, how to keep from getting fired, etc.(worried about physical needs)?  Or do I go to work every day with my foremost thoughts being about sharing the gospel, showing integrity (even at the cost of getting fired), being honest in my work (rather than stealing my paycheck through laziness or half-hearted effort), etc.; and trusting that if I do what is right, the Lord will take care of what is needed (worried about eternity)?

There are miracles and MIRACLES. One of the things we must be aware of is ignoring miracles. It is tough to avoid MIRACLES, but miracles are another thing. I'm not talking about the birth of a baby. That's truly miraculous, but it is quite ordinary in terms of frequency and cause'n'effect.
Miracles are quite frequent. We hear about them in Fast'n'Testimony Meeting all the time: a child prays about finding his favorite toy, and lo! and behold! he finds it. I suspect that many of us discount this as coincidence, but I think many or most of these are truly miracles.
I had a question about the concept of "fervent prayer". I fasted, and I went to the Temple. I got an answer there. It was not a "voice", it was not a verse I chanced upon while waiting for the session to begin. It was pure insight. It turned out to be what I already knew, but it was something wholly new, as well.
My sister was in her baby buggy a few days after she was born. We were building a garage — a small tornado came up the driveway, and blew the whole thing down on top of her. I had stacked a couple of garbage cans up next to her a few minutes before the "act of God", and the wall that would have crushed her stopped falling on top of the buggy and her. The car in the garage was smashed and took five weeks to repair — she escaped without a scratch. A miracle? It was not in answer to a prayer, it was not something anyone would have been shocked about. It was a miracle, or, perhaps, a MIRACLE.
Let's not ignore the miracles in our lives. Many are small. They are mundane in some respects. Nonetheless, they are gifts of God. Elder Bednar calls them the tender mercies of the Lord. Whatever you call them, they are wonderful and they are ours.
Lehi

This sounds  like a concept I was recently introduced to -- the "New Perspective on Paul" movement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Perspective_on_Paul From what I can gather, their main thrust is to argue that when Paul was referring to "works" in a negative light, he was referring to specific elements of the Law of Moses, and not good works in general.
 
As with anything like this, it is not without controversy. Since we LDS do not feel any particular loyalty to the early Reformers, it doesn't bother us that much when someone challenges the conclusions of the early Reformation, but it is not hard to see how someone who is loyal to these men might be reluctant.

Next time, kindly ask him whether anyone has done a study on christophobia -- the fear and hatred of Christians and their values.  This mental disease causes hysterical ranting and raving, and is now rampant throughout society, even among the mental health care professionals.

I'm going to take this one step further. W. Cleon Skousen was an FBI agent back in the 40's and 50's. He investigated the Communist Party, USA, and subsequently wrote the book, “The Naked Communist.” In it he listed 45 communist goals. The following are of relevance to this discussion.
 
It isn't a conspiracy theory that the communist party through socialism is subverting and taking over the U.S. It is a conspiracy fact. Of the 45 goals, they've achieved 39 of them. Obama is just the last in a long line of attempts to subvert regular government.
 
The socialist/communists have used the psychiatric profession to warp the minds of people, to convince them that they and not God know what ails mankind. It used to be that homosexuality was classified as an aberration. Now it is considered normal and we who oppose it are the aberrants. This country is very sick.

Praise the Lord, Prison Chaplain.
I'm glad to see that there are at least two churches left on this earth that believe and understand the truth as to what the real psychological disorder is.
dc

Don't worry, they are working on making it a disorder.  Give them another year.

I hate to tell you this Crypto, but you belong to one of those groups that is considered radical and lacking in charity.

I would like to point out, that by strict definition, anything-phobia is a disorder. So true homophobia would, indeed, be so. Of course the concern is that they define any aversion to homosexuality whatsoever as a "phobia", which has been the long-held pervasive lie out there concerning the matter.

"It's over -- We've lost"
Let's go over some updates.
 
--After the attack in Paris, firmly declares to the world that there will beno change in policy -- "ISIS is contained"
 
--Characterizes the slaughter in Paris as merely a "setback" in his policy
 
--Imports Syrian immigrants, without informing the Governor or state authorities of their presence.  Bypasses state authorities and goes through non-profit charities.
 
--Threatens to veto legislation that would require strict vetting of those immigrants for terrorism.
 
--Ridicules those who disagree with him --> "They are afraid of widows and orphans", etc.
 
--A senior Senator who is a member of his party, Senator Feinstein, criticizes his lack of leadership and failed policy
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/dianne-feinstein-obama-isil-215935

Just watch and give it time.

“...A straight shooter.” OK, this blows me away. How can you possibly think this? Let's look at the deficit quote. I'm not going to list the URL, but you can look it up on YouTube and hear it straight from his mouth. According to the left leaning Wikipedia, the deficit in 2008, prior to Barry being coronated, was $458.6 billion. In 2012, the deficit was $1,087 trillion. Now, I realize that if you use the leftist, communist core math, the liberal consensus would be that it actually dropped to zero. If you use the math the rest of the world uses, you would see that it more than doubled.
As for the socialist theme. Are you familiar with the name of the party that Hitler created? Translated from German, it's the National Socialist German Worker's Party. Note the word, “socialist,” in that name. Hitler started out this way and became a totalitarian.
As for Barry being a socialist, let's first consider the difference between a socialist and a communist. Well, actually, there isn't much difference other than when communists take over from their brothers, the socialists, the communists kill off the socialists; they become totalitarians. So, in considering if Barry is a socialist let's do the duck test. You know; if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck and has a bill and feathers like a duck, it's probably a duck - test.
Let's consider the evidence. From Barry's memoir, “Dreams From My Father,” he talks about the most influential mentor of his life as a man named “Frank,” later identified as Frank Marshal Davis. Frankie boy was a hard core Soviet style communist who hated everything American. Frank practically raised Barry in Hawaii. Who did Barry choose to ghost write his book? One of the founders of the terrorist, communist organization, the Weather Underground, Bill Ayers, an avowed communist. Barry served on the board of the Woods Fund, a socialist organization. His father was a socialist economist for the Kenyan government. His mother, and both white and black grandparents were all socialists. At Occidental College, he hung around with Dr. John Drew, a well known communist activist on campus. Drew said that Barry “was a Marxist-Lenninist in his Sophomore year of college.” Barry gave speeches on campus sponsored by the socialist youth group, the “Students for Economic Democracy.” Another thing from his biography, he stated he was attracted to “Marxist professors” and attended the “Socialist Scholars Conferences” in 1983 & 84. Out of college, Barry worked for and with a number of groups funded by Saul Alinsky (remember A.C.O.R.N.?), a nationally renowned socialist community organizer. In 1999, he sat on the board of trustees of a socialist think tank called, “Demos.”Another of his mentors is a radical Marxist professor at Harvard, Charles Ogletree. Many of his political speeches contain classic socialist economic themes. He was a member of the socialist organizations, The New Men and Progressive Chicago. A group called Committees of Correspondence for Democracy was part of the Communist Party, USA, but split with it because it wasn't radical enough. This group was deeply involved in Barry's 2008 election campaign. It has many notable communist and socialists members such as Mike Klonsky, Marilyn Katz, Bill Ayers, Earl Durham, Carl Davidson, Timuel Black, Lou Pardo, Van Jones and others.
You want me to keep going? Quack, quack.
 
No, you aren't wrong and I'm not implying anything. Obama is ten times worse than Hitler. Barry hasn't killed too many people yet, other than his cowardly drone strikes, but give him time. Did you know that in his executive order #13603, he authorizes slavery? Of course it isn't called slavery, however, to paraphrase what it does say is that he can force people to work without pay. That's slavery. The same executive order gives him authority to confiscate all forms of production, manufacturing, transportation, food, water and energy any time he wants. If you don't go along with the program, what's to stop him from taking your food and giving it to someone else. He'll make Hitler look like a boy scout.

True.  Obama is many times more subtle in his schemes.  He learned from Hitler that he can't go invading other countries to subjugate people and impose his will.  He's doing it through lies that appeal to the something-for-nothing types, the "social justice" types, in other words, socialists.  Hitler was a socialist just as Obama is.  Obama is the master of bait and switch.  He stated that he would cut the deficit in half by the end of his first term.  Instead he doubled it.  He said that the Affordable Care Act would cut the cost of health care premiums.  Instead it has more than tripled them and the cost keeps climbing.  He has the slime stream media in his pocket, just as Hitler did.
 
Yeah, Obama is way beyond Hitler.

You got it.  "Ope borders" has nothing to do with compassion, but with POWER.

true, and I doubt that is his goal either.
 
It's not normal war per se, I'd say it's more of a shadow war, and whether he intends it or not, (and I think he does) These policies will drive this country to the ground as effectively as if we were in wwIII. The only issue is that people don't notice it for that, since we've grown to used to the idea that America is and always will be the amazing country it is/was. Because we aren't in open conflict, we turn a blind eye to it, noticing only the immediate issues that it brings, not recognizing the underlying possibilities.

I believe your response is very mild and kind.  It is my honest belief that even if the liberal citizens realized what their liberal representatives - that they gladly voted for - were really doing while in office -- that they would drag their representatives into the streets and lynch them.   The Tea Party has been labeled as cookie extremists but I am thinking they are just citizens that are starting to understand just a small portion of what elected officials are doing with ung-dly amounts of money.
 
There is a reason that the establishment is willing to bend every law possible (IRS) to keep them quiet biased entirely on their fear of opinions - and not a even a shred or smidgen of breaking any law.

You're missing the point, LDG. You offer as evidence of the Tea Party's "nuttiness" the results of a biased Google search. I strongly suspect that if you were to outline the general beliefs and raison d'être of the Tea Party, right this very minute, without any further consultation of sources, you would fail miserably to get it right. I bet that, like most of Europe and of the American political Left, you don't understand what you are criticizing, and are instead basing your beliefs off of the slanted reporting in the news media.

This is what we call missing the point.