Elphaba

Hi Stu, If you don't get a lot of traffic to this post, I'd re-post it to "General Discussions." That's a great site! I've never seen it before. Elphaba

Hey Shanstress,I kick my cat every chance I get! Elphaba

I am an ex-Mormon who knows a few ex-Mormons who learned truths that did cause them to lose their testimony. (I am not one of them.)But I think 90 percent is far too high a number. I know quite a few Mormons who read the same information and struggled with it, but still maintained their testimonies. If I had to come up with a percentage, I would say thirty percent. Elphaba Later edit: Actually, I'm coming down to twenty percent. E. Later later edit: I'm not even comfortable with twenty percent. E.

Dr. Steuss, I've always loved your excellent posts that give us such an enlightening look into the past. You're going to be a great asset to the board. Bravo. Elphaba

It would be a mistake to assume Einstein meant the Judeo/Christian God when he said the above. In fact, Einstein strongly resented having his religious convictions misrepresented: "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." However, he did consider himself profoundly religious, as when he said: "A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestation of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this sense alone, I am a deeply religious man." Elphaba

Actually, it would probably be a better fit, since 27 years later, I am now bonkers! APA it is! Elphaba

That makes me crazy! I don't really know what else to say. It's just so unfair, and so wrong. Elphaba

Hey CK, that was from me! Just kidding. Elphie

Dr. Steuss, You and Moksha are going to fit in just fine here. It is an addictive board, and there are places for every issue imaginable. I love it here! Elphaba

As my good friend "consiglieri" once said on another message board: "I am 47-years old, and after having lived more than half my life, I am starting to get the sneaking suspicion that having faith in Christ may be the most difficult work of all." It can especially be difficult for individuals such as me. I am one of those D&C 46:14 people. I'm just grateful I have people like my parents and siblings whom I trust and love, and can "believe on their words." D&C 46:13-14 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world. To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful. Dr. Steuss! You made it! That sould give you faith in something! Elphaba (Jaynee to you).

Yediyd, Finnian would agree with you here, as would most of us. Elphaba

I don't think I've ever known anyone who makes up his own "facts" more than you do.From Wikipedia: Ellis Island opened on January 1, 1892 and was closed in November 12, 1954, but not before 12 million immigrants, were inspected there by the US Bureau of Immigration (Immigration and Naturalization Service) There are unsubstantiated estimates for immigrants processed there as high as 20 million. It was the major processing station for third class/steerage immigrants entering the United States in 1892; it processed 70% of all immigrants at the time. It is simply impossible that 20 million people consisted of the "best, brightest and healthiest immigrants." Wealthy immigrants that traveled first class and second class would get automatic entry into the United States. Those who did not travel first or second class had to pass a six second physical examination. Those with visible health problems or diseases were sent home or held in the island's hospital facilities for long periods of time. Then they were asked 29 questions including name, occupation, and the amount of money they carried with them. Although the wealthy immigrants were allowed automatic entry, we now know that didn't guarantee they were all healthy. And again, it certainly didn't guarantee intelligence or stability. That was an assumption made at the time. But no guarantee of the "best and the brightest." About 2 percent were denied admission to the U.S. and sent back to their countries of origin for reasons such as chronic contagious disease, criminal background, or insanity. Two percent were sent back! How does that jive with your "best and brightest" assertion? Elphaba

I have no problem with it being "one" of the criteria for legal immigration. I have a problem with it being the "only" criteria.My point is, based on Finnian's past posts, such as his support for eugenics, he would exclude everyone but the "best and the brightest." Finally, I suspect his idea of the "b and the b" is completely different from mine. Elphaba Latetr edit: I think I misunderstood your sentence: "It should be one criteria for legal immigration." If you meant it should be one criteria for every legal immigration applicant, then please provide the specifics of "best and brightest" for me. What exactly should immigration look for to determine if the applicant is one of the "best and brightest"? Elphaba

1. My daughter used be able to get our cat to turn into the "Evil Kitty," but he's on to her now and won't do it anymore. 2. I was so RELIEVED to see that "Kitty and the box" was not about a litter box. 3. The Talking Cat was hysterical! The nursing home my grandmother stayed in the last few days of her life had a cat that just roamed the halls and stayed on patient's beds. The staff said the same thing, and in fact, it was on my grandma's bed when I walked in to see her. She died within days. Elphie

I HATED THAT! I think the standard should be MLA. Elphie

I have never understood how someone could become friends with a chicken! Elphie

I can see why your ancestors thought what they were doing was best, but I absolutely agree with you. What a gift to teach your children two languages, two cultures, and like you said, "diversity, tolerance and education." I really love that and think you are honoring those who brought you to America. Elphaba

That was the most poetic paragraph about gum I've ever read! I particularly liked "flopping about uselessly" Elphaba

Given your support for eugenics, and your arrogant comments like "best and the brightest," I have a hard time believing you would have let in hardly any of the immigrants that came through Ellis Island.Elphaba No, they are not all dead. Elphaba

Wow. Very thoughtless. Elphaba

A girl poses for a picture with a mascot of the 2008 Beijing Olympics during an Animation Fair on July 23, 2007 in Beijing, China. China is preparing for the 2008 Games through campaigns to boost the enthusiasm of its citizens. By Guang Niu/Getty Images. Isn't she adorable? Elphaba

Yes, that is a good discription of this egg!! (me) I think softboiled as well.... with a very tender heart Elphaba

As a passionate amateur Mormon historian, I really disliked Davis Bitton, I found his comments presumptuous and manipulative. I find the recent switch to “One’s testimony does not rest on the history of the Church,“ to be similar to an annoying PR campaign. The fact is, if you do not believe the history of the Church, you do not have a testimony! And this is a switch, because in the past, many meetings were devoted to the history of the Church. Fort example, all of the following are the history of the Church: The First Vision , the Angel Moroni appearing to Joseph three times in one night and once the next morning, Joseph returning to the Hill Cumorah four (?) times to get the golden plates, Joseph translating the plates, the publication of the Book of Mormon, the organization of the Church of Christ, Joseph Smith’s revelations, Joseph Smith’s prophecies, the restoration of the priesthood, massive conversions, Mormon persecutions, settling and leaving Kirtland, settling and leaving Missouri, Haun’s Mill massacre, settling and leaving Nauvoo, Kirtland and Nauvoo temple, Joseph’s polygamy, the organization of the Relief Society, King Follet discourse, Joseph and Hyrum’s murder, the pioneer trek into the Salt Lake Valley, Brigham entering the Salt Lake valley on July 24 and saying ‘This is the right place,“ Brigham becoming president of the church, polygamy in Utah, converts using handcarts to reach Utah, women’s suffrage in Utah, the Utah war, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, the Blackhawk war (more people killed than in the MMM), the 1890 Manifesto, 1904 Manifesto, the Salt Lake Temple, the “History of the Church” written after Joseph’s murder, but in his name, the growth of the Church, the 1978 Revelation allowing all worth males the priesthood , and the “Proclamation of the Family.” Obviously, this list just covers the surface and should be 10 times as long as it is. In addition, according to Joseph, even the Lord insisted the history of the Church was important, as Joseph received a revelation in 1831, wherein John Whitmer, one of the eight witnesses to the Book of Mormon, was to keep a history of the Church: "Behold, it is expedient in me that my servant John should write and keep a regular history, and assist you, my servant Joseph, in transcribing all things which shall be given you, until he is called to further duties.. . . . And again, I say unto you that it shall be appointed unto him to keep the church record and history continually; for Oliver Cowdery I have appointed to another office." (Doctrine and Covenants Sec. 47: 1-4) So, this new emphasis to dismiss the history of the Church, and it is new, appalls me. In my opinion, it is a direct result of the easy accessibility of the historical truths, warts and all, from the internet. Previously, members, converts and investigators relied on the whitewashed versions of Church history they were taught, and had no idea there might be more to the story. Now, as happened to Yediyd, they come across truths that are hard to swallow from sources on the internet that are not friendly, and it is painful. Even though I am no longer a believer, I love the Church’s history, and hate to see anyone lost their testimony over it. I have long advocated that the Church teach these harder truths to its members in age-appropriate classes, such as seminary and institute. I understand that with investigators it’s a more difficult question. I understand the “milk before meat” concept. I am conflicted, because just as Yediyd has demonstrated, she feels betrayed that at the beginning she was not told some of these harder truths. But ultimately, it did not matter because she did find her testimony. I do believe, for example, that investigators should be told about Joseph’s polygamy. A number of times I’ve seen converts get hit with that information and it sends them reeling. I know twp people who have left the church over this. And I know believers, even here, will say they didn’t have a testimony to begin with if that “minor thing” made them leave. But that is too simplistic, and demeans what was a very painful experience for them, which could have been avoided. Anyway, it certainly is the Church’s choice to decide how to handle its history. But again, church members are disingenuous when they say “I don’t have a testimony of the Church’s history. The Church IS its history. There is no separating one from the other. Elphaba

SF, Somehow I missed your post yesterday. It sounds as if things are going well, and I very happy for you; I hope you are able to rest and recover yourselve, as well. Elphaba

You're welcome! I think they're amazing. Elphie