tiancum

Although, like A-train said, they are two different things, both need to be interpreted (so to speak) with the help of God. Otherwise, it would not be understood correctly. Any time a prophet speaks by revelation, it needs to be understood, and interpreted by that same spirit, or it fosters confusion. Sure knowledge, and wisdom is needed, but revelation can only be understood by someone who is aquainted with the language of the spirit.

Chicagoguy, may i suggest that you look closer at the facsimiles in the book of Abraham. Especially the circle. turn it upside down, look very closely, use discernment. God answers prayers. I know he does. He answers yours.

I have a theory.... Those that exhibit spiritual gifts plentifully and often, have paid a heavy price to know the Lord. They show up every once in a while for most, but to have them plentifully, it is indeed a heavy price. (something i am trying to improve in myself) I have concerns about "gifts of the spirit"; -Many think "gifts of the spirit" are the same as talents. (like was clarified above) They are not. -Many think that "gifts of the spirit" are not as common because we have advances in medicine, etc, and they are not needed. No... if they are not common in our lives, as the scriptures say, it is because of unbelief. -Satan has counterfeits. They are plentiful. If a person is using their gift to look good, gain notoriety, or make money, or get any other kind of gain, they run the risk of being deceived, and hurting others with their "gifts". -BTW speaking with the tongue of angels does not have to mean speaking in a diverse language, it can simply mean, that the person is speaking as an angel would, by direct revelation.

We all have been given the way out of whatever trial we find ourselves in. Many times, we choose not to use it. Although I do not think that was your point, you were simply hoping that a more effective support system could be established to care for those who deal with this heartache. I have seen the adverse effects of porn first hand. I can say this, it takes a long time for those affected by it to come out of it. TO realize they have a choice, to realize they are, dare I say, worth fighting for. It takes lots of angels from both sides of the veil. No amount of sarcasm, grandstanding or pontification is going to guide a person back. All it does is make the people hurt feel like there is no hope. Love and caring are the only way that the spirit can rest on us, so we can reach out our hand to those in need. THere are those that need us...(Not victims...victims do not need anything, because they think they are perfect already. ) Are we willing to mourn with those who mourn?

lol, where on earth did you find that Jason?

nope but they can train people outside so that they act poorly inside.

Um, maybe you didn't know this, but the Temple Prayer Circles were done outside the Temple until recent decades. Generally they were done in Ward meetinghouses or Stake Centers in an upper room (when they still built them in two stories). I would ask, What's the point in learning the "true order of prayer" if you can't do it? some prayers are reserved for holy places. about it being done outside the temple. Can you show me proof that they had permission/ council from the prophet/apostles? If not, they were messed up, bigtime

I agree totally. Even if we are oft times struggling and not experiencing joy, when we have those epiphany moments where truth becomes part of us, it is joyous, and it can make us see things in a totally different way. This has happened with all of us i hope. Athiests, Mormons, Eastern otrhodox, Jews. Lol, because first of all, it is an LDS site. We tend to associate things with Him. Also, he is the only historical figure that has claimed that he is the author of truth. ALL truth. if someone were to just start lining up people in front of me, I would spray 'em with a hose. (i got a weird picture of me sitting on my lawn in a lounge chair, drinking a coke, and some random person offloading people off a little bus, and lining 'em up in front of me ...definitely hose worthy) (on a serious note) NOPE. Truth is for anyone who looks for it. As per Christ's command to look... I can't help it if it makes non Christians "happy" to follow his councils. It all comes from Him, but it can be found in more than one place.

I gotta agree Elph. One Mormon myth that really bugggs me is when people say that the pain was too much for the Father to bear so he ran off and hid in some corner of the Universe. I do not think either of them left, the Father simply took a few steps back at one point.

What a beautiful way of stating it. Again PC, I am impressed with you and your words. They are truly the words of life.

Heavenly Father REALLY likes her. I wish that people wouldn't pray directly to her. Although those who are not of our religion are not under the same condemnation as us when they do something like that. We are asked to pray to the Father. I used to wonder if we were allowed to pray to Jesus, but then I realized that I was, every time i prayed to HF. They are one God....With Mary, it's along the same lines, but different.

There are 2 types of bad spirits. Those that never had a body, and those that got one, and died. Yes they are the ones he is talking about. I used to subscribe more to the 3rd part theory, but i have heard many prophets say 1/3, so i changed my thinking a little, and won't be too surprised if its a little different than I understood. I gotta be careful how i say this, but one of the subtle ways that they open the door to the FALSE spirits, and FALSE revelation, (and i have seen LOTS of it , many of my loved ones have fallen hard) is when our personal revelation weighs more than what the prophet says. They will forever work in tandem. They will NEVER contradict each other. it is a heavenly Law. Yet some get really weird revelations. And then depart from the church. Usually within a few years. The bad spirits are very clever. They can deceive the very elect. Our temple covenants, and keeping the commandments will save us. If our hearts are set right, and we continually repent and renew our baptismal covenants we will be protected. God will even intervene when we are being deceived and/or hurt by the afore mentioned spirits. I have seen many miracles in this regard. There was a very popular book going around the members of the church. I was even approached in the temple once about this. The book, and the brother that approached me tried to tell me how to receive "true revelation". And it was done by doing the ceremonies, including specific prayers OUTSIDE the temple. President Faust told us that this was not to be done. Anyway, many were recieving wonderful revelations, like reincarnation was real, and taht they were Adam, and that polygamy was to be restored by them, and many other dark things. Anyway, be careful guys, there are wolves among us. Lol the wolves don't like being called wolves much tho.

If there were Appalachian mountains is the preex. Then that is where these spirits lived. I bet many played the banjo. On a serious note, I believe there were many elect that lived back then also, I think generally, the most valiant came at this time, between the 5th and seventh seals. But there are many valiant that were called forth at earlier times also. I can't jsutify the beleif that all here were more valiant than Abraham, Moses, Joseph Smith...It just doesn't work for me. Although i do believe that mentally handicapped (those with limited accountability) were quite valiant, I believe that there are some that come to earth that had a choice to just come and receive a body, and go home, but they wanted to stay and take part in the work, and were given missions accordingly. I know many that die in infancy or before they are born have that choice, and choose to go home. (i don't blame them). I believe many stay though. It was a long walk!! And had such a comfy chair. I procrastinated...

Actually, African Americans now prefer to be called BLACK again. I agree with prison Chap, call people what they ask to be called. Honestly, i love the fact that we can say stupid and foolish things here in the USA. I love the fact that there are those that think that we never landed on the moon, Adam and eve are aliens, and there is a 300 mile gaping hole in the earth right above greenland. I even love the fact that we can be racist, sexist, SAtanist... or what ever "ist" is coming down the pike. I love the fact that I haev the choice NOT do be any of the above also.

nobody ever said that Calvary wasn't part of it. We just felt you were wrong when you said that Gethsemane was not necessary. Even I from the start 3 threads ago stated that they were both part of the atonement, and it culminated with the resurrection. The scriptures we posted were to that end. Gethsemane was essential. Thanks for clearing it up. As for me still believing that he did suffer (pay for our sins) at least in part in Gethsemane. It is a belief, that does indeed come to me in part by Bruce R. mainly from his talk "the purifying power of Gethsemane" and other talks. Part of it has come through the spirit. All of this talk is well and good, but what i think is more important is for all of us to strive for a first hand witness of these events. It is the difference between knowing about him, and knowing him.

yea, if a "Jack" was one who did not live by the principles, then 100% of the church would be "jack". Some try, all fail. ; ) I think it's a silly term anyway.

LOL! Do we go to Sacrament meeting to judge others, or get closer to God? We can't do both at the same time. Time spent judging others is time that could have been spent on us looking inward and changing us. We cannot make others change, we can only change ourselves.

A funny side note about global warming. The sensors/thermometers that had been in place all over the world since the mid 1900's were all read at regular intervals. In the '90s there was a big jump in the global warming index. Why? Because The soviet Union had split up, and no one was taking readings in from their sensors that were placed in Northern Russia, Siberia, etc. (no money, political upheaval...and the rest, they couldn't even pay their military and gov, workers) Losing the data from these sensors, which always lowered the average temperature of the planet, caused the average temperature index to rise. At least on paper. OOPS!

I believe it was both. My original assertion was that the atonement took place for all that final day. Starting in the upper room, and ending with the res. I just think that He did so in the Garden also. indeed, it was also on the cross. If there was a debt, then he did carry the burden for that debt, which is paying for it in part. About the Apostles interpreting scripture for us. BTW I agree with you about their other duties. When Pres Hinkley said that the Prophecy of Joel had been fulfilled, he was doing that. I accepted his official interpretation for that. Then we get to pray about it. maybe were jsut straining at gnats here...lol

I was merely saying that it is up to the prophets today to "officially' interpret the scriptures or "standard of doctrine" for us. That is why they are here. When I posted Elder Haight's talk, i did it simply to say, that he had seen it first hand in vision, and he claimed officially that the Lord did pay for our sins 'in the garden". It went beyond mere opinion at that point. It was his first hand witness. Rosie, if you say that what Elder Haight saw in vision is not true, or say what you know is more true, then so be it. I thank you for your input. We will just have to disagree. Now Crimson, if you are comparing Elder Haight's vision to some of Mckonkie's words, (the thing I loved most about Bruce is that he had such strong opinions, yet when the Brethren asked him to retract, change, rewrite, etc, he did so immediately) I guess we are at an impasse. So be it. I am going to continue believing what they have said. I simply believe as they have said, that he paid for our sins in the garden. It was part of a much bigger atonement. I know that if we ask the Lord, in all humility if what Elder haight saw was true, then the spirit will testify of it's truth. I know from first hand experience. Thank you guys. I will take my leave. I have appreciated the discussion. What i don't want is there to be any ill feelings. If i have said anything demeaning or insulting, i do apologize. It was not my intention at all. I tried to simply say i disagreed without any of that, and tried to back it up. Crimson, if you find any quotes from the prophets saying that Christ did not pay for our sins in Gethsemane, I will read them. I won't respond any more because I want to stay as far from contending over points of His doctrine than I possibly can. Forgive any impropriety on my part. I believe the ultimate goal for all of us, as Joseph taught, is to see first hand the events that transpired. A personal, and perfect witness of the Savior is a tenable goal for all of us. I know what Joseph taught is true. I know that Christ is real. He is my friend. He is my God. I love him. Peace out ya'll

Do you not consider when the Apostles speak in conference official? Are we not to follow their councils when they speak then? Or do they need to come out with a proclamation... I believe in both. Whether or not the early Christians believed in (or even knew about) Gethsemane... (i believe they did. Just because it isn't in the record didn't mean they didn't know about it.) Our latter day prophets have given us greater light and knowledge. We are blessed with oracles, even Special witnesses that have interpreted it in one way. One of my favorite witnesses was when Elder David B. Haight spoke of the Vision he had of the savior's Life. He was a first hand witness of all of this lying in his hospital bed. The Sacrament, and the Sacrifice Elder David B. Haight Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles I do not write this to contend. I only write this for information. And confirming the first hand experience Elder Haight had. FWIW

Crimson, I would suggest that you continue to teach this only if you can find A prophet that supports your point of view that the Atonement did not happen in Geth. If you are saying that the sacrifice for sin did not happen in the Garden, then you are saying something quite the opposite from what many of them have said. please be careful brother. I have no right to officially council you, i don't have the authority, but being as you posted your thoughts and are expecting feedback, i give mine.

To confront the orig. question.... I believe that God follows Laws. For example, God won't be evil/devilish. God won't prove that he doesn't exist. God wont lie. Along the same lines, God isn't going to make something out of nothing. He creates EVERY DAY EVERY minute...and he does so within the laws he has established. I don't think he would break his perfect laws, i mean why would he? They are perfect, so is He. They get along quite well without being at odds. That begs the question, could there be an exception? NOPE not to a PERFECT LAW.

I was merely responding to you when you said; (see you were asking two different things) It did. According to modern revelation, it simply did, according to those that Christ chose as His mouthpieces. You most likely won;t find clear doctrine on it in "canonized scripture" but that is what the living oracles are for. It is their "official duty" to interpret the scriptures for us, as a church. It is still scripture... As for the other part of your question... Simply, He didn't suffer what we suffer. He suffered what Gods suffer. And frankly, through modern revelation, some of it happened in the Garden. I bet you have studied Cleon Skousen's thoughts on the Atonement. They might sort some things out....Or then again... Good luck on your journey, I hope you find the answers. A good gauge that your answers are grounded is if they gel with those who have seen him face to face. That is why I keep mentioning the Modern Prophets. They have seen Him, I know it, they have a Special witness of His atonement and have seen it with their own two eyes. Peace out Bro

Crimson, there are many scriptures that say that Geth. was part of the Atonement. I will site a few. Gordon B. Hinckley, “The Things of Which I Know,” Ensign, May 2007 Vaughn J. Featherstone, “‘However Faint the Light May Glow’,” Ensign, Nov 1982 Boyd K. Packer, “Atonement, Agency, Accountability,” Ensign, May 1988Gethsemane was indeed part of a something we cannot begin to fathom,only through the holy ghost. I am thankful that we have special witnesses of Christ to clear up the confusion concerning points of doctrine. They are our modern scripture. I am grateful for that.