Deborah

Enduring to the end is not easy. But keep in mind it's still not the end for many of these people. Life is a process and a school and sometimes we fail a class. But hopefully we come to our senses and get back on track. I love the phrase from the parable of the Prodigal son "And when he came to himself." We may stray but hopefully with prayers of loved ones and with a watchful God we may all come to ourselves when we do.

Anyone who wants to gain a testimony of the Prophet should listen to these. Truman Madsen is a brilliant scholar and you can see his passion and his love for the prophet as he recites these stories. When asked once why he studies the life of Joseph so much he said it's because it draws him closer to the Savior because Joseph seemed to know him so well.

How on earth do you come to the conclusion Christ won't be in the Celestial world? Those who inherit the Celestial kingdom will dwell with Elohim and Christ. Christ will minister to the Terrestrial world but will not dwell there. They "receive the presence of the Son" but not the Father. Christ is God and creator of this world. That he would condescend to come to earth and go through all he went through shows his great love for us. He has bought us with his blood and paid the price demanded by justice but in no sense has he lost any of his glory or godhood by so doing.

One of my favorite movies is Inn of the Sixth Happiness based on the life of Gladys Aylward. Her approach was simply to love the people and serve them and by doing so changed the lives of many around her. She showed her faith not through proselytizing but by her actions. Something like Ammon in his service to the Lamanite king.

So sorry, abqfriend. No manner of explanations help when you're in the midst of such crisis and pain.

And that is it in a nutshell. We chose to come to this earth and experience mortality so that we could grow in faith, compassion and patience. Some of us fail at times and some have given up, but trying to answer why is a hopeless task unless you believe there is a purpose for it all and that purpose both precedes and goes beyond mortality.

Whatever the origin, I have no doubt the BOA is from God whether Joseph translated it from a certain set of Papyri or not. Unfortunately the debate continues while the actual facts elude us because we simply don't know. Scholars can disagree on the origin but I think the power of the book speaks for itself.

That is my thought. I also think that man may interpret the "scientific" evidence incorrectly or there may be some information that is missing. God has revealed many things to us, but he hasn't always told us how they came about. We can speculate all day long but in the end the science of how it happened will be explained and when we come to that moment we will realize how limited our understanding in mortality was.

A very good point. Also if we are looking at scriptures written anciently we need to realize that times change and the Lord recognizes the changes that need to be made in how things are done. Doctrine doesn't change but the way we apply it in our lives will vary with the society and the time and I think this is very much an indication of how cognizant the Lord is of our lives and struggles and what we as a people need to best live the gospel.

I just happened to listen to a talk by Craig Ostler on recognizing the spirit. It was very enlightening. The main point was that yes we have the burning bushes and the Kirkland Temple experiences, but most revelation from the beginning to the present has been in that still, calm spirit that resides in our hearts and that at the same time gives us intelligence. The spirit is not just a warm feeling, but must be accompanied by this intelligence or enlightenment or this desire to do something. Br. Ostler also talked about what revelation we receive depends on what our purpose is in asking for it. In other words we must know what to ask for and ask for the right reasons. I realized in listening to him how much revelation I have received without naming it as such at the time. It is that spirt or inspiration which causes us to turn direction or study more or do something we really weren't intending to do. It's for example being in a place where you are just at that moment when someone needs your assistance. If we are expecting the trumpets and glorious visions we will miss those daily moments of pure revelation we receive as we go about our daily lives. Learning to recognize the spirit takes practice and as we do it more and more, it is amazing how often we find ourselves receiving that inspiration or guidance as we go about our daily tasks and how much easier it is to discern from the true spirit and just our own desires.

It truly was a sacrifice beyond our comprehension. And it was a sacrifice made willingly out of love. I suppose that's why I get a little upset at some of the too-casual references to Jesus such as the bumper stickers that say "Honk for Jesus." I think that such things minimize what it was Jesus actually did for us. If we truly comprehended certainly we would all reverence him much more.

I think this is the greatest lust of the Gadianton Robbers. But it's interesting that he says "But behold, the devil hath deceived me; for he appeared unto me in the form of an angel, and said unto me: Go and reclaim this people, for they have all gone astray after an unknown God. And he said unto me: There is no God; yea, and he taught me that which I should say." This sounds like what some of our EV friends who want to reclaim the LDS people.

Not all ex-Mo's are Anti and not all Anti's are ex-Mo's. But when someone comes out with strident personal character assassinations against the prophets or accuses LDS of being brainwashed or unenlightened then I think the label fits pretty well. It is one thing to disagree with the archeological facts or even the origins of the BOM, but quite another to start making personal accusations based on one's interpretation of what little evidence there is and especially to do it in LDS venues.

That is an interesting point because to fall for the anti line you have to accept what is negative and pretty much ignore or deny the positive. This is what I don't understand about those who all of a sudden discover some facet of the faith that creates doubt: instead of focusing on all the positives they've had in their life to that point, it's like that one seed of doubt starts taking over and soon grows to overshadow all the good they once believed. Instead of having faith that their questions will one day be answered by the Lord they would rather let those who hate the Lord and his church speak for him.

I agree that it can mean the strength to fulfill our callings. I look at Pres. Hinckley and see the promise of this blessing. Of course his body is winding down but I don't doubt if needed he would find renewed strength. In fact at the dedication of the Omaha Temple he opened with a very weak voice and could barely speak. As he began the dedicatory prayer his voice grew deep and you could see the strength return as he spoke and he spoke with great power. I think this is an example of what that means.

Right. If your "personal revelation" is contrary to what the current prophet is telling us then you need to look at the source of that revelation. The spirit will not tell you something contrary to what is doctrine.

You are absolutely right and this is how people get in trouble by thinking their personal revelation is something they somehow should teach to everyone. Only the prophet and the Apostles have authority to teach to the whole church. I don't understand why so many forget this point. Many apostates are those who take their personal "revelation" and try to teach it to others and even oppose the church forgetting how far their authority goes; they usually get hung up on one point of the gospel forgetting the big picture and thereby lose the benefit of the whole.

Funny you should mention this because I have had some of these things happen and I know they were answers to prayers. I could tell some amazing stories. Sometimes God works in little insignificant ways to let us know yes he is still there and still cares. Some of these little answers to prayers have been when I felt extremely alone and wondered if God cared. When he would answer a simple little prayer I knew he was still there and I would get through whatever greater trial I was going through. I do not however, discuss these things in F&T meeting because they were personal revelations and sacred experiences. I have had occasions where I felt to share them with others. But I do know without a doubt God is concerned and cares and does manifest in some of these little human affairs so that we will hold on and know that he is hearing our prayers on the more important matters but this is something we need to endure a little longer. I feel that I should relate one little such incident as an illustration, and it is only one. I had been going through an extremely difficult time in my life with a child custody battle and poverty and my car being wrecked and trial upon trial. It was getting cold and my son had come into my room and opened up my bedroom window to yell out to a friend. This window had a problem getting stuck so I never opened it. Well I tried to close it this time. I had my son try to close it and he hammered it and we both pushed on it and it would not budge. I was in tears. I sent my son out, got down on my knees and told Heavenly Father that I wondered if he cared and that I couldn't make it and I didn't know what I was going to do and now I was going to get pneumonia because I couldn't get the window closed and if he really cared he would help me shut the window. I got up from that prayer merely put my hand on the window and it immediately shut with no effort on my part. I knew then that God was truly listening and that he did care and I would get through this time of trial. Now please don't tell me God doesn't answer such simple requests. I know he does, and that was just one minor little example.

We can debate what is real or not but it is interesting how the prophets (both in olden times and today) refer to some of these incidents and characters as if they were real. There are references in the NT to Job and to the flood for example. Now whether because it was understood these were illustrative stories or real events I don't know. But I do not think the stories told are at all impossible for God if we truly understand the principles and laws behind them. (for example all the animals on the Ark---has no one watched Dr. Who and the Tardis? )

The imperfections of the body in this life are a result of mortality and the genes that are part of that as well as disease, birth defects, accident etc. However, it is interesting how the spirit can transform the outer appearance. I once heard a young mother speak who had been badly burned. Her scars were so very noticable even though she had had much surgery. But as she spoke and her spirit took over, I did not notice the scars at all and I started seeing the person she really was. I think we have a tendency to cringe at first from appparent ugliness but once we recognize the beauty inside the outer appearance begins to be to be transformed in our minds. This goes the other way as well. I once noticed this beautiful woman sitting alone. Then she lit up a cigarette and I heard her speak to someone. Her voice and language were foul and unpleasant and all of a sudden the beautiful woman disappeared. My best friend's ex was the most gorgeous man I had ever seen. He literally would make women swoon when he walked into a room. But as my friend said, beauty doesn't last long when they mistreat you. I think sometimes beauty can be a burden. For women I think it can objectify them and they really can question whether someone is interested in them as a person or because of how they look. I learned to stay away from the really good looking men when I was dating because they seemed so shallow. Everything came too easily for them and as a result they did not develop the strength of character I admired in less handsome men. Of course there are exceptions, but the point is we tend to make instant judgements based on appearance and we really need to look beyond what the eyes can see.

I always look forward to conference. When I lived out of Utah I would listen to it on the Internet or go to the chapel. Now I watch all the sessions on tv. Plus with my DVR I can go out shopping on Saturday and still watch the whole session. I live close enough to SLC to attend, but I like the comfort of home. Though you do miss some of the exciting things that happen, like hecklers being escorted out. Everyone who has an opportunity should attend in person at least once. It is a great experience.

You can always take Excedrin. Not as toxic as what they give for ADD and it has enough caffiene to knock out my sinus headaches.

If you recall many of the prophets of the Old Testament were rejected in their time. Many of them had to wander and hide. Proximity is the factor. My daughter had a bishop whom she raved about. I visited her ward and when I saw who her bishop was I started laughing. He was someone I knew in high school. He used to be the kid who would jump over chairs at church with his cousin. That's all I could picture. Remember this scripture about the Saviour in John 1:46: "And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see."

Check out Richard Dewey's biography. I love Porter. He actually reminds me of Peter. He would have given his life for Joseph but he was indeed a diamond in the rough.

I think language can change as we are influenced by the spirit. Don't feel bad though. I've let out the s word a couple of times at church, not in the chapel but in some other venue. Porter Rockwell was pretty rough and tumble, but he was beloved by the prophet Joseph Smith. Peter was a little impetuous when he cut off the guard's ear. We are all human with our faults and weaknesses. But it's the progress we are making that matters and that we are working on becoming better.