Traveler

What most people do not realize is that there has been a great shift in credit over the last 50 years and credit has become one of the major sources of revenue in business. Currently banks and credit companies make over 80% of their profits through various fees and charges - not including the charging of interest (that use to be the major source of profits in the credit industry). Most consumers to not understand that when they take out a loan they are talked into “locking in” a rate that results in a fee charged against the loan – this is in addition to origination fees that are charged. It is important for banks to create ways for home loans to be refinanced every 5 years as a minimum in order to meet quotas to justify multi-million dollar bonuses at the executive level. The so-called interest bubble is not really a bubble based on interest in the credit industry – it became a problem because banks were leveraging additional capitol based on turnover of loans. And it does not take a brain surgeon to see the flaw in leveraging virtual capitol. Even though we know such profits cannot be sustained the banking industry is being given “stimulus” that is nothing more than the largest rip-off or involuntary transfer of wealth to have ever taken place in human history. Please note that both Democrats and Republicans are involved in this swindle. If anyone ever wanted proof that Satan controls the treasures of the world and will use those treasures to buy up governments, militaries and religions – just watch as scripture and prophesy is fulfilled. The Traveler

The Cherubim come in pairs not 4 and Satan is revealed in scripture as one cherub. (See Ezekiel 28:14-16) There are a few things of interest to note: In verse 14 Satan is identified as the anointed cherub. In Hebrew the term anointed means Messiah. The reference to Satan as a cherub that covereth is also interesting because the only cherubim that cover are placed at the “Mercy Seat” in the temple. One on the right of G-d and one on the left. It is from this scripture that scholars get the notion that Satan is at the left hand of G-d. We learn from Stephen in Acts that Jesus is at the right hand of G-d – a place reserved in scripture for a cherub. We also find Jesus fulfilling all the symbols of a cherub as “The keeper of the way to the garden of G-d and the tree of life” and as the only other one identified in scripture with a sword and fire as part of keep “the way”. The concept that a cherub is an angel is not anywhere in any scripture I know of but is a doctrine that was introduced into Christianity during the “Dark Ages”. The Traveler

Many scholars believe that the Pharoses (including firstborn families) that ruled Egypt during the time of Joseph were descendents of Japheth or in other words Gentile kings and rulers. It is argued that later descendents of Ham (Nubians) took control of Egypt and enslaved the Israelites to prevent a power alliance with their rival predecessors. It is also argued that Joseph became a gentile and his two sons were given gentile names. That this is a type and shadow for Israel that parallels many prophecies of Israel being scattered among the gentiles (as was Joseph) and that a gentile prophet would arise from among the descendents of the gentile son (Ephraim) and would gather together and reclaim the remnant of Israel as Joseph gathered and reclaimed his brothers. I believe it is important that we understand that Joseph aligned himself with the descendents of Japheth and not Ham. Otherwise, the prophesies and blessings that follow in scripture based on Joseph make no sense or serve any doctrine. The Traveler

Interesting thoughts. Do not the scriptures tell us that if someone says that they believe in Jesus (saved) but do not keep the commandments that they are lying and not telling the truth? The Traveler

Good on You! And now your spiritual journey begins. The Traveler

The title has to do with covenants (as do most such symbols and references in scripture) In particular this has to do with the commitment of G-d to covenants from the beginning to the end. A good example of how this is used is Isaiah 46:10. All things are known, understood and under the control of G-d from the beginning to the end. We can trust that G-d is the master of the covenant. It is also interesting to note that according to that covenant that G-d will make known all things to the children of the covenant. This is most important for those that join various religions thinking that they are justified before G-d. There is no justification in ignorance – thus the warning that not all believers (those that claim to believe in G-d by his name – doing things in his name). Thus anyone called to G-d’s service must be called of G-d by prophesy (through the authority of a prophet). The Traveler

Again I am not sure that I can go along with your reasoning although I am grateful for your response. The first five books of the Bible are generally believed to have one source – generally believed to be Moses. This means that the style is from the same place and time. But we see the reference to G-d is not consistent within the textual style as you have explained as a possible reason. I think that explanation can be logically eliminated and we must consider other interpretations. We know from scriptures and revelation that G-d is consistent in his dealings with mankind. I find it interesting that in all cases (not just some) prior to the fall that the references to G-d are plural. All references after the fall are singular; including the texts of the same period and origin. Something about the fall is to me the most logical reason for the difference. Especially since the creator of the Genesis, Exodus, Numbers and Deuteronomy texts is singular throughout all those texts. I believe that the scriptures are trying to convey and teach important principles and if they are understood correctly we well realize that divine references must be consistent according to context. The only context in which the references change is the fall of man. It is the only reason I can think of to justify a style change if referencing the divine. The Traveler

Thanks for your response: I am not in complete disagreement but as we talk about design, having worked and participated in the design of complex systems, I have come realize that seldom, if ever, is design dependent on a single designer superior to that of a team. Note that in scripture when explaining the creation that the expression of design is plural and not singular – indicating a team. It is only after the fall of mankind that there are any expressions of a single G-d. In reality when it comes to competing, a unified team always wins over a loan single competitor, even when the loan single competitor is better than everybody else. If there is complexity in design – it would appear that logic of a singular designer is flawed. Another point I am trying to make is that if there are separate beings that are capable of being one with G-d then that which defines G-d as “one” cannot be singular and G-d is not alone in what he is. The joining or being one with G-d – I submit is best given in the example of the joining of a man and woman in marriage. The Traveler

Okay - I have not read all the posts in this thread but there is something interesting about abortion. That is that if all unwanted children were aborted rather than being born into abuse there are a number of rather interesting by products. (According to the research done for the book Freakonomics.) 1. There would be less poverty in the world. 2. There would be much less crime in the world. 3. There would be far less starving children. 4. There would be far less child abuse. It would appear to me that by the same logic that abortion on demand (the right to choose) is justified the world would be better off if those so engaged (responsible) were never allowed to have children. The Traveler

Prisonchaplain – I have always enjoyed reading your post and I feel you are a good example of someone seeking Christ. If I may, I would like to get inside your head (a little bit) and try to understand your thinking process. I am particularly interested in the reason you stated that you are convinced there is a g-d. This idea that complexity must come from an outside, separate or independent designer is of most interest to me. Is not G-d even more complex than the universe, our world or our bodies? If something complex requires a designer then would not the more complex require much more a designer? If the essence of G-d is related to the design of the complex then by that logic G-d cannot be singular. But by that same notion if design of the complex is divine intelligence and “good” then all designing of complex must have something similar or in common. Therefore anything or all things that become or learns that which is the common in design of the complex is G-d. Whch to me is the heart of the divine purpose of mankind and why G-d restored the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. A Saint being someone in the process of being divinely imporved by design. The Traveler

Of all the places I have traveled Asia has the friendliest people. The Chinese will buy and sell anything, I believe it is inbreed into their culture. Japanese have the best food – moss burger is as must try for every American. The most incredible people have to be the Sherpas. Europe is great if you want to spend half your life associated with meal time. Mexico and South America have wonderful rainforests (jungle) just bring lots of mosquito repellent. An Arabic wedding is something to experience. Most places are better if you can speak the language or have someone with you to translate but mistakes in translations are some of the funniest and most embarrassing things about travel. The Traveler

This thread is interesting but there are some problems with some assumptions. Some thoughts: 1. All infinites are not the same. For example: There are an infinite number of integer numbers and real numbers. There is an infinite number of real number bounded by any two integer numbers. So there are an infinite number of real number sets that contain an infinite number of real numbers that do not belong to any other of the infinite number of sets. I submit that it is possible to have an infinite number of infinite atonements – without any overlap anywhere. 2. All things that are revealed from G-d are according to covenant. The atonement itself is both given and received by covenant. The ancient Hebrew phrase that appears at the start of the book of Genesis: “In the beginning” does not convey the literal meaning. It would be better understood if it read: “In the beginning of covenants between G-d and man”. What is missing in our understanding of scripture is that the scriptures are referencing the beginning of a covenant. The atonement is an infinite atonement according to that covenant was begun in Genesis. 3. According to the covenant and plan of the Father there is only one G-d for all of fallen mankind and that is the G-d Jehovah or Jesus Christ or G-d the Son. He is our infinite G-d because of his infinite atonement – this is according to our covenant with him and according to that covenant it is also our agency. But he will only accept our agency with him by covenant whereby he becomes our G-d and we become his children by covenant. This forgotten covenant is confusing to Trinitarian Christians that do not understand that the agency of Jehovah is a covenant with G-d the Father; with whom we cannot covenant because of the fall and therefore we must have Jesus as our covenant Father so that Christ can mediate with the Father for us. This is also an infinite covenant that will have no end. The Traveler

I find your statement interesting - The problem is not in getting Jesus' assistance and love. His effort does not change from person to person. The problem is getting people invested in Jesus' assistance and love of others on a level that Jesus is invested (being one with G-d). And the truth is that such an investment is not about "you need" or what any "you" can get out of it or a "your" salvation. It is not about Jesus - the scriptures are quite direct - it is all about what is in our heart and what we bring to the table. If it was all about Jesus then everyone is saved and there is no reason to even discuss such things among ourselves. If someone is not willing to "buy" into the program and invest in Jesus with ALL their heart, might, mind and strength (according to scripture) then all that Jesus has done will is not enough for them. The Traveler

It would seem that there is a little more investment required than believeing in Jesus by name. (See Matt 7:22) Believing that attending Church makes someone a Christian is as silly as believing that sleeping in a garage will make someone a Ford. Sometimes I smile how many interpert scripture. For example, in ancient times to confess Christ meant certain death by public execution. Many think it means the same today, doing so at a church while the congregation cheers. The Traveler

I maintain my covenants in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints because it is the only institution I have found on that teaches and prepares man by covenant to be “one” with G-d and the completeness that defines his nature and power as divine. In addition it is the only religious faith that teaches that there is redemption (and therefore reason to hope) for those that die without the ordinances and covenants being taught to them in this life. Another reason is because of the LDS understanding that marriage as ordained of G-d, as is all things of G-d, are everlasting and without end when we die. Another is that the LDS honor Apostles and Prophets (as all covenant peoples have) that speak with authority to represent G-d as did the ancients. Another reason is that the LDS teach and believe that Jesus is coming again and therefore are engaged and invested in the notion that G-d will speak specifically in this day additional revelations to prepare for such an important event – being the second most important event to take place in the human preparation for things divine. The Traveler

According to scripture which is greater or inferior in the Kingdom of Heaven. The L-rd over all or the servant of all? The Traveler

As a parent of 5 children; 3 boys and 2 girls I have come to the conclusion that there are different needs and responses to life for boys verses girls. I believe that it is important for each child to connect and find comfort in that with which they were born to and to make the best of it they can - which does not mean seeking to fulfill the personal passions wants and desires, whatever such may be. Living for self, especially to the extremes of defining one's self based exclusively on selfish wants, desires and passions are distractive both to the individual and to those that are in contact with such individuals. The Travler

If one understands that the "mountain of the L-rd" is the Temple or the sacred dwelling place of the L-rd then it does not matter if Moses was before G-d at the mount or in heaven. The covenant is the same. The Traveler

The question I asked was if the doctrine taught in the Book of Job true? I believe it is - and I believe that truth applies to every person reading the Book of Job as well as this thread. The Traveler

It is a personal belief - and may be incorrect but I do not believe it to be so. That ever member should be treated the same regardless of the ward or branch in which they live. G-d, I do not believe is a respector of person. The Traveler

I wanted to use the Book of Job to draw attention to some important aspects to the scriptures. To begin with I believe asking questions such as if the Book of Job is literal or even if there was such a person as Job defeats the divine purpose in the scripture. If we analyze the Book of Job we will realize that it would be impossible for any individual to have access to all the important elements of the epoch. The truths taught in the Book of Job have nothing to do with whether or not the actual person of Job ever existed. There is something far more important being taught here. I believe the Book of Job to be an important demonstration of the divine use of types and shadows to give understanding to important principles in the mortal probation of the Children of G-d. I also believe that through the prophets of the restoration we can understand and make more sense of sacred scriptures than by any other means. The Book of Job gives us one such important example. Twice in the Book of Job (beginning with verse 6 of chapter 1 and again at the beginning of chapter 2) Satan presents himself before G-d. The problem is that the scriptures also tell us that Satan was expelled forever from heaven. So the question is – how does he show up in heaven? The answer is that this is not the same Kingdom of heaven and same G-d talked about during the creation and prior to the fall. This is the kingdom and G-d that presides over mortal (or probationary) man and is a realm and kingdom to which Satan has access. Without this restored understanding of the G-dhead the Book of Job becomes a glaring doctrinal contradiction. The type and shadow of the Book of Job is not just an interesting story about somebody that lived and died eons ago. It is an example and metaphor of how Jesus Christ (the G-d of probationary man) and Satan interface react and behave according to the great plan of G-d to save and exalt the righteous through a mortal experience. Therefore, Job is every person and every one and the experience of Job is the trail of morality which all the righteous must face to justify their claim to believe in G-d. In other words – there is no such thing as a fair weather believer in G-d. I have seen much argument about just believing in G-d. Many times I believe the point of belief in G-d is missed. Job was not made great by anything but his belief in G-d that did sustain him through all difficulties. If Job’s belief in G-d was not real he could not have survived his trial – he would have failed. And so it is with us all. We cannot even know for our self what we really believe in until we have demonstrated to our heart and soul (as did Job) the full extent of our belief. It is not that we earn our salvation and exaltation but we do earn our belief in G-d and the divine revelation which is the Book of Job proves by the word of G-d that very truth to all the believe in him. Note the question by Satan in Chapter 1 verse 9: “Doth Job fear G-d for nought?” As you read the Book of Job and as you face your trail of faith – how are you doing? Some I have seen abandon their faith in G-d just because it is difficult to fit in with the families of saints as a single person others drop off because of tithing or the Word or Wisdom. And some because someone made an offense or treated them rudely. Come all that believe and let us walk together in the light of G-d – even as Job. The Traveler

To expect a branch President of a Spanish speaking ward to behave or treat their members any differently than ever other branch President or Ward Bishop - is in my mind a far greater problem that indicates the worse kind of racial bias (with evil intent bias) to even suggest such a thing. The Traveler

There are two parts to the law. The first part is that part that we are all most familiar. It is the written, spoken and defined law. The second part of the law is president or how the law is used. It is this second part of our immigration law that is broken but those that complain about immigration law being broken make no account about what is broken. I have no question but that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is doing the best it can to bring about good things as well as honoring the law. The problem is the precedence that has been set in dealing with undocumented immigration. The USA has set an inconsistent precedence that dates back to over 100 years in dealing with undocumented immigrants and the citizens that assist such activities. This inconsistency has created a landscape where any definition or interpretation of the written law is impossible to be enforced without wide spread injustices that filter into other aspects of the law beyond immigration. One example of the problem that has been created by inconsistencies is associated with what is known as anchor babies. Another example is that ever individual must be treated the same. In other words any Church cannot treat someone differently because they suspect they are not documented – and that includes even asking if they are documented unless every member is required to prove their citizenship; a policy that would be extremely cumbersome and difficult to validate as well as being sure of keeping within the legal framework. Because of the LDS church humanitarian mission to teach of Christ to all peoples there is reason to do all that is possible in the full intent of the Law to act as “Good Samaritans” and assist whenever possible. To leave the 99 in search of the 1. I believe this includes the blessings for missionary service. There is however, a great area in which the law has become inconsistent. This is not because of activities of the LDS Church but because of the vast interpretations of the law that vary in different regions of the country. So how do I see the legislation of Brother Bennett? I see this as a means to protect the church from lawsuit generated by the anti-LDS that will to any extent and any expense to destroy the church and thereby prevent even a set-up situation that could be brought to bear against the church and its leaders (both general and local). Without question the immigration policy and law enforcement is broken. It also appears that there is no effort by anyone to solve the problem within the framework of the law. It is not the responsibility of the LDS Church to solve the immigration crisis. (Think separation of Church and State). It is not the responsibility of the Church to dictate legal policy or define how the laws should be enacted and enforced. It is unreasonable to even expect the church to be pro-active and adhere to any degree of separation of Church and State. It is the responsibility of the LDS Church to make every effort to comply with the law – and that I believe the LDS Church is doing to the best of its collective ability. The Traveler

I beliefe there is too much false politics involved in changing immigration laws. Since you recommend changing the law please let us know which immigration law you hold personal disagreement. The Traveler

If someone can – would you please explain the difference between the divine truths that are at the essence of the epoch of David and Goliath and Nephi and Laban? I find it interesting that G-d commanded each to kill someone that was delivered into their hands. It is also interesting that both took the life of their captive by cutting of their heads while they were helpless and incapisated. The Traveler