Traveler

I would also really love for someone to explain why the Book of Mormon talks about wheat, barley, oats, millet, rice, cattle, pigs, chickens, horses, donkeys, and camels. The American Indians had none of this until 1492. Also, iron, steel and glass were not used before 1492. There is so much more, but I will leave it at that. Can you explain any of that? I thought I would respond to just one of the false points in this post. But before I do I would point out to all the forum that; never have I seen someone with this attitude willing to do any reasearch of their own in history. Concerning #1 and the character of Joseph - I would point to the childhood friend of Joseph Smith. A young boy that grew up as one of the most anti-social characters in American history. He never heald a place of authority in the Chruch of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. He never got along in any organization. He was known for his lack of manners and his frankness and honesty. A bold person that would expose any fraud. This friend of Joseph's knew Joseph as a child. Very likely one of the first Joseph told about his vision. He grew up with Joseph and his brothers. This friend was never known for his religious tendencies. What he was known for was his lifetime respect of Joseph Smith. The friend? Why it was Orin Porter Rockwell. If there was a lie in Joseph's past - Porter would have exposed it and Porter could not be bought off with money, fame or power - heavens know many tired. Porter recorded that even as a child, Joseph would not lie. No one could have known Joseph better and had less reason to lie about what he knew. The Traveler

I have yet to study anyone, other than Jesus Christ, that so loved his fellow man that was more forgiving and compassionate toward others than Joseph Smith Jr. It does not surprise me that some can find flaws in Joseph - the ancient scribes and Pharisees found flaws in Christ but none of the critics of such greatness have demonstrated themselves to be less flawed than of Jesus or Joseph. Jesus said: "Let them that are without "flaws"/sins cast the first stones." Anyone can point out a flaw but if they cannot offer a better example, their witness is false and a lie and Satan is their inspiration. Joseph lived his faith and died a martyr for his belief - which of any of his critics has come even close? The Traveler

One of the great classic criticisms of Christianity was by an individual (whose name I forget) in the allegory of the geese. The allegory explains that once a week (usually Sundays) the geese would waddle through the mud to where they would gather to talk about flying. Then when they were through talking about flying they would return to their places waddling back through the mud. If a Christian does not realize that we practice and prepare to live with G-d in the same exact manner we prepare to live with our fellow man thinking that G-d will prepare himself to live in that manner with us is like the foolish 5 virgins that had no oil in their lamp (unprepared) when the bride groom comes. I have learned that there are 5 great principles that govern how G-d deals in his love, mercy and compassion with man. One of those principles is that G-d will not do for any man that which man is capable of doing themselves. Let me make this as clear as I possibly can. First I realize that there are things that can help prepare us and some of those are great and wonderful gifts from heaven. But the second – and this is very important: IF THERE IS SOMETHING YOU OUGHT TO DO AND CAN DO TO PREPARE FOR G-D AND YOU DO IT NOT YOU ARE LIKE THE FOOLISH MAN THAT BUILDS THEIR HOUSE UPON THE SAND. Prepare my friends or the time and season (Eces 1:9) of preparing will pass just as it did in the days of Noah (who prepared by building an ark through his much labor). G-d has not changed how he saves us – if we do not prepare in a like manner with our ark in our day we will be unprepared and washed away in what is coming as countless others have in their generation. Are you prepared? The Traveler

If you have a computer search engine on down loaded scripture you will find that Jesus uses the term "whole" to refer to something other than healings. Perhaps the other question is - was he serious in the use of the term or was he being sarcastic? The Traveler

I don't think Eve was immortal and who says she was a virgin? It is my understanding that Eve was amortal - not subject to death but not "eternal" either. It is also interesting that one of the ancient definitions of a virgin is someone un-touched by mortal man. It is also considered that a woman (and a man) maintains their virtue in marriage. In other words the act or reproduction is a divine act of creation shared with G-d in covenants. Any other use of the powers of creation are an abomination. The Traveler The creation in Genesis speaks to the creation of "man" not Adam. I believe that it is speculation to assume that G-d created some men (Adam) in one manner and others (us) in some different manner. Did adam have a navel? - of course he did the speculation is in assuming he didn't = which forces the speculation that G-d is not consistant. The Traveler

Easy friends are not real friends. I am sorry if my posts seem stern or harsh - in the words of a coach I had long long ago "all my efforts are to make you better". If you are ever in grave danger and struggle to survive - if you can reach me or someone like me (perhaps a bishop), I will exhaust myself on your behalf - unless you do not desire to get throught it - a better person.The Traveler

Very good, very good. The most nobel of the Father's Children placed himself in the worse (lowest value)place to take upon him the burdens of the lowest or the last. And I believe you are 100% correct - for the propose that the lowest of all humans could stand in the first place of the universe - which is the rightful place of G-d.Now for fun, another thought. The first man to hold priesthood keys from G-d was Adam - the last man to again hold those keys before they are returned to G-d will once again be Adam. The Traveler

I suggest you read "Jesus The Christ" by James E. Talmage - What caused the death of Jesus was not the cross, he literally died of a broken heart - according to evidence that is given in scripture. No doubt he was in great pain and I know that many intended to take his life. But if you want to believe otherwise you may do as you wish but I believe the truth is as Elder Talmage published it. The Traveler

Why? Christ's sacrifice for sin wasn't about having a broken heart and contrite spirit. It was about him losing his life unjustly. A type is: A person or thing exemplifying or symbolizing the ideal or defining characteristics of something. The defining characteristic of Christ's sacrifice for sin was that he--a God--was murdered. I'm not saying there aren't other factors and elements at work in the atonement, just that the slaughter of a spotless lamb is an excellent way to typify Christ's coming sacrifice for sin. Perhaps I should ask this question in another way: What did Jesus die of? Was his life taken from him? Was he slaughtered or murdered? or did he give his life freely by his choice? In case you are wondering - I believe there was great injustice, there was cruelty and brutality - all of which Jesus suffered - but death? He had power over death - his life was not taken it was given. The Traveler

There is another possible meaning. You are good at Hebrew - first seldom means "first in time" but rather "first in value". I am sure if you and I had a couple of days to walk together we could enjoy a very long discussion as to what this means.The Traveler

Thanks Dr. S: I think you are on to somethig. In the theory of Math whole does have very specific meaning. Whole numbers for example have specific character and meaning. The Traveler

The difference between believing in worthiness and believing in preparedness is in the interpretation and focus of life - one forever looking backwards the other forever looking forward - one lives in the past - the other in the future – one sees errors and flaws – the other sees possibilities and potential – one sees themselves and others based on what we and they were – the other sees themselves and other for what they are becoming. The motto of the Boy Scouts of America is to be prepared. When I was a scout master I would tell my boys there is no such thing as bad weather or bad luck, just bad equipment and bad preparation. If someone has no idea what they are preparing for – most likely they will not be prepared. I have yet to see anyone prepared for what they could not fathom or understand. Those that have eyes to see and ears to hear – Prepare ye the way of the L-rd! The Traveler

Getting to heaven is not about worthiness – though some seem to point to such and think such. I submit that getting into heaven and being happy there is all about preparation. I am convinced from the gospel of Christ and by all that I learn in scripture that G-d intends to prepare who ever will allow him to do so. Every commandment, every ordinance, every word, every one called by G-d has but one purpose – that is to prepare (not make worthy) everyone to live in the society of G-d. It is by his love, compassion and mercy that he labors (with his servants) through divine sacrifice to prepare us all. It is through our stupidity that we think we can pay little attention and make token worship and thus somehow will enter heaven unprepared. Prepare you the way of the L-rd! The Traveler

You are correct in the broadest sense. Evangelicals in particular, and most Protestants, and to some extent, even most Catholics, do believe there is one way of salvation--through Jesus Christ. So, in essence, we do insist that only Christians (and perhaps some Jews) will enter the kingdom of heaven. However, what the LDS have done is officially declared the Church a gatekeeper to the Celestial Kingdom. I can worship God in a Methodist, Episcopalean, Baptist, Pentecostal, and even a Catholic Church. I would look around and believe that most in the company would be with me in the kingdom of heaven--the same kingdom I will be in. So, this "minor" different between reform and restoration (resurrection???) is actually quite significant, imho. Very good. In essence the works and kingdom of G-d cannot be reformed by man and is distinct and different from what any man or society of men would have in mind or could do - regardless of how righteous the man or men. Following the murder of the Prophet Joseph (death by religious extremist in the name of their traditionally approved and widely accepted Christian G-d); the LDS were driven from their homes and country into the wilderness. Once established the LDS worked to become a state but their territory was divided and they were denied. When at last they were granted statehood they desired that their state be called Deseret. This was denied them and in some interesting last minute moves by the enemies of the LDS that forced the name of Utah. No one realized that this was fulfillment of prophesy in the same manner that Jesus fulfilled prophesy concerning where he was born despite being from Galilee. The name Utah in the language of the Native American Ute people means “Top of the Mountains”. (See Isaiah 2: 2-5) No one but G-d could have brought forth such a thing. The Traveler

Interesting stuff - anybody know where one can obtain the complete published works of the document produced at Nice in 325 AD? The Traveler

Sometimes when Jesus was involved with individuals seeking blessings from the Christ he would indicate that they had completed and were about to recieve more than for what they had asked. This is when Jesus would include with their blessing the phrase - "Thy faith has made you whole." What did he mean by that statement - why is this in scripture. Does being whole include being saved, does it have more or less meaning or not related to salvation? And why did he indicate that being whole has more to do with the faith of an individual than it does the mercy of G-d? Is there anyone on the forum that believes that Jesus has indicated to them that they are whole and therefore in position of authority to inform others? The Traveler

Huh? You can call them that, sure. Again Traveler, my point was that within the framework of the Law of Moses, sacrifice for sin involved killing a live offering. Since the Law of Moses typified Christ and foreshadowed his mighty atonement, I was drawing the connection between killing the spotless lamb for sacrifice, and killing the Son of God for sacrifice. I was not saying sacrifice can only mean killing a live offering. I was saying the Hebrew word the KJV translates as "sacrifice" meant killing. It's really not that complicated. It is not that complicated - and I submit to you my friend of important points that a broken heart and a contrite spirit is a more complete offering and a better type and shadow of the mighty atonement and sacrifice of Christ. Sometimes ancient terms become to represent more what we think than what was first intended. For example the term "Cheater" was first used as a title of an official at a sporting event. The Traveler

It is interesting to me the character and nature that discussion of the apostasy take through time and place. I find this discussion at it start to be most telling. For example, the notion that there is an obligation to “Prove” “Complete Apostasy” - as though there is significant difference between “Apostasy” and “Complete Apostasy” in the eyes of G-d. Which is what we are talking about – Not our individual opinions but the opinion of G-d. But before we get into particulars of this discussion I would like to clear up something – just for the record. For anyone that does not believe in an apostasy (deviation from the church and kingdom of G-d as established by Jesus The Christ) please answer for me the following question so I can determine how to continue with you in this most important consideration, in order to demonstrate a deviation from truth. To which is there greater authority and power: 1. The Church to determine what is scripture and how scripture is defined: or 2. The Scriptures to define the Church and how it governs it members and determines operations, procedures and organization? The Traveler

I do believe that often there are reasons that are seen at the surface of things and then there are the deep rooted secrets that are often very different and hidden. First I want to make it clear that not all questions are opposition nor are all discussions arguments. I find much joy and learning through discussions of different views – especially yours PC. Often I say that nothing can be learned discussing points only with those with whom you agree.But there is often another dimension to things. I wonder why some Traditional Christians are so harsh and bitter towards those with whom they do not agree. I believe the answer given to things found in scripture. I will begin with Matt 7:15. There are some that take on the character of a "ravening wolf" and intend spiritual harm. For some reason they think that by doing spiritual harm and tearing apart another faith they can win a convert. What better term than to call such religious zealots – false prophets of Christ In the gospel of John we have a record of a collision of two ideas - both rooted in the ancient traditional Hebrew religion. Starting in chapter 6 Jesus offers answers questions asked by the Pharisees and Scribes. What is interesting to me is that the questions of the Pharisees and Scribes in scripture have a prophetic tone (type and shadow) and have an amazing parallel to many of the questions and accusations made against the LDS. For example look at John 8:48. Here Jesus is called a Samaritan (non-Jew). This serves the same purpose and idea that anti's have in saying LDS are not Christian. Another one of my favorites in John 10:32-33. I once asked on the internet what it is that LDS have done to receive so much criticism from other Christians. The response so surprised me that I almost fell off my chair. The response was almost an exact quote of the last half of verse 33. I find many parallels in the gospel of John as Jesus deals with the Pharisees and Scribes. One lesson I have learned is that Jesus did not convince or convert many of the Pharisees and Scribes – most likely the LDS will not win many by this means either. BTW - I started a thread about what Jesus taught about faith and works. It is interesting what Pharisees and Scribes say about salvation and their being saved by the grace of G-d and how Jesus answers their claim. Keep in mind that the Pharisees and Scribes were expert in scripture and quoted many of the same ideas in the same way some do in putting forth their religious ideas. I had hoped that some may see the interesting parallel to the various arguments on this subject - but alas, it appears few are interested in the manner this subject is dealt with between Jesus and the Pharisees and Scribes. The Traveler

Apparently you didn't read one of my earlier posts to that effect. We must partake of ordinances and covenants to be cleansed, apply Christ's blood to our sinful hearts, and become perfect in Christ. These ordinances and covenants are had in full within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. God has also restored through latter-day prophets the priesthood authority necessary to administer these ordinances and covenants. So if you want to get to the top of the Celestial Kingdom...dwell in God's presence...then you must partake of the required ordinances and covenants and this involves being baptized a member of the LDS Church for starters. It's not complicated. The short answer to your question is "Yes." Then why was Joseph surprised when he had a vision of heaven and saw his brother Alvin there? You are right - it is not really complicated but it is a primary reason we LDS build temples. The principle is like unto the atonement of Christ and there are acts of love, compassion and service patterned after Christ but on a much smaller scale. The point I try to make is that if anyone wants to be in heaven there is a way - regardless of whatever it is in the past G-d and his saints will help and teach anyone that is willing to prepare for heaven. In essence the things you are talking about will be done by someone else and all the "work" necessary for anyone to get into heaven will be done for everybody. The only thing really necessary is a desire to prepare. I would liken it to playing the panio. All it takes is practice (preparation). The Traveler

This is a nice thought but in error because of misunderstanding. It is not "free agency" it is agency. I know this sounds a little picky but "Agency" is not what many think it is. An agent acts for or in behalf of a greater power. Like an insurace agenct acts as a legal represenative for the big powerful insurance company with legal binding authority. Remember when Peter was given the power to seal on earth for things in heaven? I do not think we will give back standing up for G-d. But your idea is sound. We give ourselves. But not just to G-d but to others as their servant - the greater we are in heaven the more we serve. The Traveler Good post. Not only do these things testify of G-d but they testify what kind of G-d. I personally do not like the notion of a G-d so powerful he does only what he wants. I think we are seeing a very ordered, organized and disciplined G-d that plans and carries out in ever detail his plan.The Traveler

I believe if salvation was an event then Jesus would say he was the place. But since He an I know that it is a process - it is called "The Way". Not by me but by G-d. It is not a question of worthiness but a question of preparation. Only the 5 (half that waited for the event)were prepared will enter with Christ. If you are through with your preparations I will not argue your choice - but mine is to continue to prepare. The Traveler I'm not familiar with where you got what you just said. is that our of the book of mormon. I'm not being smart but i really don't know. If so, could you please explain Do I have to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to go to heaven? First - you do not have to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to go to heaven. You do not even have to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to go to church. I find your question about being prepared very much a surprise. Everything G-d command is intended to prepare us to live with him. In you faith, does no one consider being prepared for Jesus when he comes again? You never think of preparing to live with G-d? Everything of value or worth requires preparation. If you play a sport it is stupid not to prepare. If you seek a profession it is stupid not to prepare. If you seek a relationship of marriage it is stupid not to prepare - which btw - G-d compares having a relationship with him to that of a marriage. Good grief - I would not even go out in public with getting prepared and getting dressed. If I was to meet a president or king - I would prepare. And for the King of Heaven - for that I would prepare with great effort. I do not even pray without some preparations. Wow! I find it so interesting that you have never come across the idea of preparation - especially when it comes to G-d and getting to meet him or have a relationship with him. What church do you attend? But as I live and breath - I learn something new every day. Thank you for your honesty - it is very refreshing. Also to answer your question. The five that were prepared and five that were not prepared comes from the parable of the 10 vergins - taught by the savior. The Traveler

If man is saved by grace alone then all men are saved and there is no point in any discussion of the subject. I do not mind anyone believing in being saved by "grace". Such ideas are very pleasant. My objection is when someone only applies G -d's grace to themself and not to everyone else. When stipulations are placed on grace it is no longer true grace but becomes an act of selfishness and self serving.I have also learned by experience that non-workers are in hell when they have to put up with true hard workers that love working. I am quite sure G-d is not stupid and is not going to force anything on anyone that does not like the idea of work. I am sure there is a "perfect" place prepared for non-workers and believers in non-working salvation, as there is a "perfect" place prepared for workers and those willing to work hard and invest their labors in salvation. But for clarity - I believe G-d is himself, a very hard worker and though it is not really easy and not at all popular - I am learning to enjoy work - especially the really good unselfish works and I am also getting over the idea that somehow I ought to get a reward for unselfishness. The Traveler

Interesting view - you mix scripture well with the expert teachings of men: Is a broken heart and a contrite spirit a sacrifice?The Traveler

The great objection I have with most definitions of salvation is when one puts themselves on the salvation side and others on the non-salvation side. I do not see such perceptions as any kind of a spiritual progression. I believe the focus of salvation is not the ME, ME, ME - I am saved, I get all I want - G-d loves Me and gives ME grace. I am reborn - look at ME! I am going to heaven - good for ME. Even the idea "all you have to do is give yourself to Christ". Again the focus is on the Me and what you can have for focusing on your ME ego. Nor do I see salivation in the "Look everybody - be like ME! Believe like ME". Jesus said that we should love our neighbor as yourself - but who among us is honestly disappointed in some non-believer (rotten old Samaritan) not making it as we would be if we fell short of salvation. In the parable of the Good Samaritan the Samaritan really loved and had compassion for the man. He did not expect the guy to believe in him, he did not ask the man to accept him, his mercy was true mercy based on inner love and no outer thing. There was no thinking the man was stupid for his situation – no statements like “you need to let G-d into your life”. The focus was on the needs and “salvation” of the man in need. The Samaritan acted as G-d’s proxy, made an honest and pure sacrifice himself – and did it without any hope for any return or glory in heaven or even a place in heaven. Jesus tells us to do likewise. Not to think likewise, not to believe likewise, not to preach likewise or even to have faith. He said “Go and DO likewise”. It is not about some event in our life or some event for us to feel good. It is not about getting to go to heaven. Even if the Samaritan was damned to hell he would still be in heaven. Not because he is worthy to go to heaven and not because G-d’s grace is going to drag him into heaven. Heaven is in his prepared for heaven heart and when G-d gives him any blessing – including salvation all around him reap the benefit. The Traveler I answer that question by saying "No, I am not worthy but I am prepared." The Traveler