Misshalfway

I don't think the temple recommend questions say anything about needing to like wearing garments. It's just important that we wear them appropriately. I think it's ok to feel a little grumbly about the whole affair. I actually really love my G's. But sometimes....like that fun time of month...make garment wearing problematic. And that's ok to me. It's part of the sacrifice. If sacrifice didn't sting a little, where would the growth be?

Hell is were I found myself this morning in traffic. I believe it can also be found at family parties and on blind dates.

Ok yeah. Serving a mission was certainly a hallmark in my life. No doubt. But it's not the only one. I know lots of women, for example, who didn't serve missions but who still make fantastic mothers and spouses and temple goers. And I know non-RM's who have been "proved" in other effective ways. God gets his work done inside of the people who invite Him into their hearts. And He changes that person when they ready to be changed. Going on a mission does NOT guarantee this. If a boy doesn't go on a mission, it's a missed opportunity. But that doesn't mean God won't provide other opportunities for spiritual growth. I can't believe all is lost because an opportunity is lost. PS. While my mission was great, it was also the hardest, saddest, loneliest trials of my life. Another heartbreaking, ideal-breaking realization. It left traumatic marks on my heart and mind that I carried for many years. Missions are good. I wouldn't want my life without my precious mission experiences. But they aren't always like tear jerking ensign stories. I think we've got lots of sound doctrine here...and lots of cultural ideations clouding things too. PSS. I think the church is very generous with offering wiggle room in regards to when people go. Isn't the cut off age 25 or 26 now? So a person can "struggle" for a bit and still have time to go. I like that. QUOTE: "Our task is to become our best selves. One of God's greatest gifts to us is the joy of trying again, for no failure ever need be final." -- President Thomas S. Monson

Hold the phone..... are you saying girl kinds don't have to be pronounced clean? Dude! Thanks for the free pass! How exactly are men formally pronounced clean and women not? Interesting. Very interesting. I really want to hear the answer to that. You make it sound like women are just....hood ornaments.

I think the church is doing what it knows to do....and I think people in the church trust it implicitly (understandable but not always wise). Who was it earlier that was talking about parenting? Our kids need us to be so involved in their growth and development in all areas. They need it to survive the world in the last days, and they need it to survive the church! Some of you might feel I'm criticizing the church with that remark. I am not. I just recognize the limits of an earthly organization that is administered by imperfect beings. There is another thread about the importance of scriptures. The more I study, the more I recognize the parallels and lessons that relate very much to our LDS cultural organized structure. I think that the Lord, amongst other things, is trying to help us avoid the pitfalls of such "earthly" religion. I wish that I could trust my daughters to RM's in general. I wish that RM meant what we wish it did. But the truth is that we are living in a crazy last day's world with very "human" people who are often doing the best they can. I have tender mercies in my heart cuz all of us are in this circumstance. But that doesn't mean I don't long to raise the bar!! Someone else talked about how we shouldn't put so much pressure on the girls to "help" the boys not act out. I think there is SO much pressure on young women to "help" the boys in so many ways. Whether it's not dressing to "tempt" them, or being "nice" so none of them has to deal with rejection, or forgiving them when they act badly cuz "women are suppose to". It all just seems like such an imbalance to me. One that doesn't come from God. IMO, It comes from earthly, unempowered attitudes that are rooted in fear. Trying to date a girl is scary for boys. I get it. Like it's not for girls. And it can be expensive too. I get that. But sometimes I'd like to go back to BYU campus and slap a little self confidence and "owning" into our young men. I want to tell them.....So what if you get rejected? So what if she makes you work a little? What are you so afraid that this means? Last time I checked, men are rev'ed by challenge. Quit making the girls lower their standards (using this word in the broadest sense) just so you don't have to risk or learn the lessons of sacrifice. Own your life. Own your choices. And we gotta learn that risk is essential to finding true connection with another person. Why don't we teach our boys (and girls) what it means to "man up" in all areas of their lives. They've got to man up in the love of God. And they've got to man up in the love of self. When they love and accept self, they can love and accept others. They don't "need" a woman to make it all ok. THIS is what women want. THIS is what RM should mean. You want the antidote to porn problems?? money problems?? Marital problems?? This is it. Now....someone please make a joke. I've gotten far too serious.

Goodnight mini wing 1 & 2.

I just got back from having a massage. I'm feeling a little nauseated and somewhat overworked and that is making me glad it was free! :) I'm now thinking about getting into my jetted tub. I have a coupla bath bombs calling my name.

No way. I've been saying no to these for no good reason???? I'm getting one!

So you got this gut feeling that made you so sick you couldn't go. Hm. My question is what stopped you from listening to your gut right here at the start? Not sure what God or Satan was doing, but sounds like your gut was functioning just fine.

I agree with this, but I also think this highlights the problem. We aren't teaching our girls (and boys) how to make decisions and that it's ok to do it this way. I'm generalizing here, but I think that this is part of the "gripe" of the OP. I think the real issue is how we teach people how to use their agency and how to own it. As you said, it's absolutely ok to say no to someone "just because". And our young people (and older people too) need to know it's ok to say "no" and to act in our best interest and according to our preferences. I know I would have done better in my dating choices had I received some of this direction. I'd have a been a heckuva lot less codependent about the whole thing.

Love it!! With all the varied ways God brings people to the knowledge of the truth, I think we need to leave the door open for wise exceptions. All the more reason to teach our children to learn how to trust and to be led by the Lord. Just like so many in the scriptures...God leads righteous people onto unknown roads and to unknown destinations. In these modern times and with so much ambiguity, I think our young people need these skills as much all the "don't make mistakes" talk.

I think this thread highlights a few things worth looking at. 1) Our attitudes about missionary service and what constitutes a "worthy" marriage prospect. 2) How we might be reinforcing narrow (and unhelpful) attitudes at church. I love missionary work. It's a beautiful idea that brings a load of growth to the individual who embarks ( even the one who makes mistakes). But I sometimes feel that we idealize people who serve. Of course we want to celebrate those who sacrifice. Going on a mission is certainly an exercise in that. But, like so many have said, "RM" status isn't the most reliable litmus test for marital readiness or spiritual worthiness. Before I served my mission, I was like many. I thought all RM were true young men who were a cut above. My mission opened my eyes, and frankly, crushed my trust that our modern missionaries were just like the stripling warriors. I won't share the details of what I witnessed, but it was shocking behavior that was far beneath the standards of the church. Perhaps my experience was unique. Judging by posts like MOE's, I'm guessing not. Also, I went to BYU. And I kissed a lot of frogs. RM frogs who tried to hop right up my shirt! Why I didn't deck the one is beyond me.... What I'm saying is that I think I respect the young man (or woman) who knows they aren't worthy/ready to accept a call and who stays home MORE than the one who pretends to be something he isn't because he can't tell the truth. I think lots of people go on missions because of the social pressure. And I think we need to look at that as parents, leaders, and members. Hopefully the new higher standards for missionary service are helping. And I don't think one's life should be based upon the decision one makes when they are 19. The human brain isn't even fully developed at 19. Our lives should be based upon who we are and what we've learned. Our mistakes/missteps/disobedience is all part of that. God judges on the heart. I think we need to take a few lessons here. Beyond that....I'm not sure what the answers are for church cirruculum. We've got to teach our young people about high standards and about setting those in marriage as well. But maybe if we widened the way we teach these concepts, our young people will have a better sense of balance and wisdom. I, for one, am teaching my children to do a lot interviewing. :)

My DH, my dad, my kids, my vet, and my therapist. Including pets.....8. Raw buffalo and something my husband cooked. When I returned to LDS.net and saw that Vort was still posting. It was trip that was supposed to last 12 hours and ended up lasting 17. It wasn't my fault we missed the exit. My son who hasn't quite learned the concept of telling mom where he is going. Complex. Well, more than I had last year. Taller than my daughter, shorter than my son. Hide it from my brother.

I don't think that Swiper began his marriage in deceit. I think they began like most young couples...in good faith. I remember what I was like back in my 20's. I did the best I could. But what I wouldn't give to go back and make my decisions with the brain I have now. :) And while we make promises at marriage, we don't promise that we'll never change or that we'll never struggle. The fact is that people do change and that MANY pass through trials of faith. We grow....and we grow up. Marriage is about growing up together....even if its hard and even if we have to deal with the unexpected. So what if his trial looks on its face different than some others. And who knows how this story will end. I think it takes a load of courage to have this conversation....with us AND with his wife. It's ok if he is hesitating and trying to prepare for the best outcome. I think that shows the love he has for his wife.

Well, I can't know how your wife will take the news. Perhaps it will be devastating to her. Perhaps she's been watching you and "knows" more than you are giving her credit. Based upon your descriptions of her attitudes, especially before you got baptized, I have to believe that she is a woman of perspective. Something that I'd trust if I were in your shoes. I think it might help if you prepared her a bit. Maybe you talk to her a few days in advance and say, "Sweetie, I've got something I need to talk to you about. I'd like to make sure we have time and privacy. So, when do you think it'd be a good time?" Might also be good to ask for what you need before you tell her the news. Something like, "This is a hard thing for me. I really need your support and your openminded-ness now more than ever. It's ok for you to feel whatever you need to feel too. But I need you to be a soft place for me as I tell you these things." I also wonder if you counseled WITH her about your concerns, rather than just dropping a bomb and arbitrarily stating your new position. What if you shared some of your feelings and asked for her input on how you should proceed. This shows you care about her opinions and feelings and that you value her involvement in decisions that impact the whole family. It also opens the dialogue to sharing how you've struggled to come to the position you now find yourself and how she may be struggling with it. I think it might be good to have more than one conversation. Or maybe an ongoing conversation for a while. And I love what Beefche said about expecting a mourning process. Anything you can do to offer patience in however she reacts can only benefit the situation. Empathy, validation of her feelings, listening to her, offering care for her concerns and fears are all great positions to take. This will be an important antidote if either of you gets defensive. Speaking from some experience, back when I was really questioning things, I went to my husband and shared my concerns. He was so understanding and supportive. I was never really afraid....I knew him pretty well. But he exceeded all my expectations in terms of love and support as I've wrestled with just about every aspect of the mormon church. He was patient and he didn't ever overreact! He cried with me, mourned with me, and prayed with me. And he told me over and over he'd support me no matter what conclusions I came to. And I tried my best to be a soft place for him when he had fears or concerns about my path. It actually turned out to be one of the most bonding experiences for us. And now, we both have a firmer foundation in regards to what we believe and we are both so grateful for the experience. We've learned SO MUCH! I guess what I'm saying is that it doesn't have to be the "worst thing ever." Even if the news is hard for her at first, it can be a refining journey for the both of you. We are all in process. And some of us need to leave the flock for a wise purpose. If that's what you feel you need, who am I to say that you aren't being led? And anyway, every marriage is tested with something. Looks like this will be yours.

I think I see Beefche's point and it's a good one. No, you shouldn't sit back and "be plastic", but maybe we should "sit back" and relax a bit. And we all should understand where our sphere of influence begins and ends. The RSP, EQP, etc. have the stewardship for managing these HT/VTing programs and they often try to encourage the members to improve if its necessary. Once you've been in the church a while, you'll see how the RS, for example, has special lessons about VTing. So, I'm with Beefche. Sounding off in the middle of RS prolly isn't the best method to inspire change. The BEST thing we can do is quietly live the best we can and serve the best we can in our own callings and assignments. And we do kinda have to let others go. Most likely they are doing the best they can regardless of how it "looks". In reading this thread I've been thinking of two things... First, just reflecting on the RS women who lived those early days in Nauvoo. They were the busiest women! In each others homes on a daily basis giving comfort, service, and companionship. What a tremendous example they were! They knew what it meant to bare one another's burdens. I often reflect on what it must have been like to be that "woven together". And second, it always behooves us to get more information before we jump to conclusions. Just recently, my VTing companion stopped calling. She was normally one of those that was a go-getter and I'd come to rely on her to take the lead. Found out she'd been so very sick and I just hadn't heard. So....there are lots of legitimate reasons why people "can't" hit a homerun every month.

Yes. Except that we CAN do better.

I've been a little chapped about the VT/HTing programs for a lot of years. Well, not the program....just the way it's executed. I'm not sure exactly what the problem is. Most likely its a constellation of various issues. One, I think, is that people don't want to/know how to invest in each other anymore. I think people are afraid of connection. Cards, emails, non-face to face methods sooths the guilt and justifies the avoidance. In defense of the church, I think they are trying to give people options.....options that can work well to help meet the needs of the individual. BUT, I think what's happening on the ground is the same thing that's been happening for years. And that is that people just aren't connecting with each other anymore. We'd rather do our duty, say some trite words, and get out as fast as possible. I've tried a number of times to communicate with the RS pres or my VT/HT about the needs of me and my family. Most of these requests have gone unaddressed. Oh well. The law of the harvest really applies here. We really do reep what we sow.

Yes. But when conversion happens, they (Christ's and mine) become one in the same. This is what gaining a testimony and becoming converted is all about. There is a progressive transition here. On the ground it probably looks more like getting closer to the closer. :)

I had an experience a while back. I was working at the MTC teaching some of the English speaking missionaries. One Elder was ....how shall I say.....a pain in the butt. He came to class late. He wore his pants half down his fanny and bowling shoes. And he had an attitude bigger than Texas. As you can imagine, he was in trouble a lot and spent a lot of time in his Branch President's office. I, as his teacher, spent a great deal of time calling him to repentance and trying to help see what I thought was "the light". He was such a problem that my companion teacher and I decided to pray and fast about what to do. I'll never forget the answer. Paraphrasing here....God said, "I brought him here. I am working with him in mine own way and in mine own time. Your job isn't to change him. Your job is to teach him. Why don't you get back to your job, and I'll get back to mine." I was forever changed by that answer. Months later I got a letter from a very humble, very changed Elder apologizing and testifying.

I'm not. I'm equating it with his patience and wisdom.

I appreciate your position on hypocrisy. While reading your last post, I was reminded of the comparison of the Nephites to Lamanites in Jacob and how the Lamanites were "more righteous" for various reasons. I guess what I want to add is that I think that God wants more than just compliance. I think God is so very interested in our personal development. It's why the covenant relationship exists in the first place. So we are in proximity to Him. So he can teach us higher things. But in the same breath God doesn't get caught up in the law. Jesus tried to teach over and over that the law was dead. Nephi understood the law was dead....necessary but dead. I think this is an essential perspective when talking about obedience. I don't think we do ourselves any favors when we created a new version of the law of moses.

Really beautiful, Marshac. I'm getting my money's worth today. I've been entertained....and now I'm touched. Thank you.

Wow. He hung on for a while then.

But then we wouldn't have great stories to tell, eh?. BTW....what is the translation of your signature?