Misshalfway

I recommend this book a lot. It's called "Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a lifetime of love " by Susan Johnson. I think it's a cutting edged way of looking at marriage/intimate relationships. And it's easy to read. It's basically a road map to helping couples understand exactly what it is that is causing disconnection (ie. unmet attachment needs), helping them to heal past wounds, and helping them to really bond with each other in satisfying ways. You talked about feeling like your voice isn't heard or considered in your marriage. And about how hard it is to talk about because it brings up conflict. This is exactly the kind of thing that Susan Johnson addresses in this book.

Feeling so lost and burdened is part of the yucky residue that sin leaves behind. Go tell the whole story to the bishop. Don't leave out any details. The bishop can discern what is relevant today and what is not. My question for you is.....are you ready to change your life? Have you learned the lessons of playing with fire? Are you ready to live a better way? One that doesn't hurt so much?

Hi Backroads. I love that you reverence missionary service. I do too. I don't like it when people mess around with missionary work or temple covenants. Some of the missionaries on my mission were doing some pretty questionable stuff. I was outraged that they weren't sent home. :) It sounds to me like you just love your sister and you really want her to marry an honorable man. And when someone comes home for sinful reasons, its hard for you to respect them/recommend them to marry your sister. Am I close? I think that there is a difference between judging and discerning, and I'm a fan of the latter. Just as we shouldn't use "RM" as the only measure of a person's character, we shouldn't use sin either. But I do think that by their fruits ye shall know them. My sister married an RM but he treated her terribly. We objected to the wedding on those grounds. It was a battle we all lost. She married him and he still treats her poorly. They fight all the time. But oh well, she married him! The only thing I can do is be there if she needs me at some point.

Well, I guess I'm a heathen cuz I pray all the time regardless of my posture or my attitude. I've prayed while seated, standing, and while lying flat on my back. I've prayed in the car, while doing my mascara, and lots of times in the shower. I've cried and I've complained. I've poured out my gratitude and I've beat my fists against his chest in protest. I've whispered and I've yelled. I've laughed and I've plead my cause. And I've been taught, corrected, validated, comforted, forgiven, strengthened, and sanctified. Best of all, I've been changed. I don't know what prayer is to you. But prayer to me is a conversation that I have with my Father. And I'm done trying to make myself all perfect before I talk to Him.

It's always nice when common sense comes out in an official document. At least it seems to be the only thing that calms unnecessary zealousness.

Not even the church.

Seriously. Who cares how much you "know" if you are far away from the Master.

I went to Oregon. They yelled at me for pumping my own gas.

I don't think so. When we go to the temple and make convenants, it doesn't mean that we stop having adversity or temptation. It doesn't mean we stop experiencing a variety of thoughts, feelings, impulses, and/or inclinations. Temple covenants is about promising the Lord we'll do certain things....live at a higher level so that He can continue to change us into something more like Him. Keeping covenants means that we keep our promises irregardless of changes in feelings, thoughts, circumstances, etc. As we experience temptations, it often causes a conflict inside of my mind. It's suppose to. And we are not judged by our temptations. We are judged by how we use our agency when we are tempted. Let's say I've been a tithe paying endowed member for many years. Let's say the economy crashes and I experience poverty for the first time in my life. I also experience my first internal conflict over paying tithing. How can I pay tithing when I can't buy food or pay the mortgage? Growth comes as we struggle with these difficult temptations and when we exercise faith towards keeping our covenants anyway. Even if it means paying my tithing with trembling and tears. God didn't say feel super special about paying tithing and always have perfect thoughts and feelings about it. He just said to pay it. So...what I'm saying is that we can have our thoughts and feelings just the way they come. I don't think we should go into the temple covenants with panic worries that we can never have a "human" thought or feeling after that.

Ok. I see your point. But I'd still like to stand by mine. I think we SHOULD teach correct principles. Fin is right that our young man need to know that it is indeed a commandment and that their are consequences for not doing the will of the Lord. What I think I am objecting to is how we church members condition each other into doing what's "right". It's an old tactic that has been used in religion since Satan had has way in the garden. Right after we judge, we shame people. And we use our scriptures to do it. We threaten and scare and try to knock in some sense.....all the while failing to love. My favorite guru therapist friend says...."whenever we start to judge, we stop loving." It's the same whether we judge and shame others or ourselves. I've got a friend who is of the age to go on a mission. He isn't going just now for some serious personal reasons. He almost can't stand attending family parties because of all the pressure he feels from their judging, correcting, shaming comments. I don't know how many times he's heard "What's wrong with you?" His parents feel shame and embarrassment that their oldest isn't going on time. And sometimes they yell at him, using the scriptures even. Not many know what he is carrying. Not many know the depth of his struggle. At one point, he had to go to a family party and announce that everyone was hurting him and that they needed to back off. He then asked for their patience and support. You know what happened next? Lot's of silence. They couldn't offer the support. They could only move away. His parents asked him to move out. He now lives with his grandparents. Now....I'm not condemning these parents. They are still trying to figure things out. Still loving their son the best way they know how. But I think that the point of this thread is to highlight how we react when people don't do what they are "suppose to do". I think there is something to be said for examining our own attitudes towards these people and amending the way we treat them and how we chose to help.

K. I just gotta say it straight. If this were me, I wouldn't stand for it for one tiny little iota of a minute. I'd be packing either my bag or his. No...his.

You are right. It stinks when can't be ourselves. And all the demands of conformity that comes from church culture is tough. But I think we need to liberate ourselves from it. I guess I'm wondering what made you decide that the only way for you was to over-act in non-genuine ways? Do you experience direct criticism for not being more "perky"? Or is there a chance that you might be guessing how others perceive your more introverted way? So, I guess I'm wondering what your wish would be? What would need to change so that you could be exactly who and what you are, and feel acceptable to others too? And, what's your way of being/shining/serving in the world? It seems to me that God NEEDS lots of different types of servants. How else will he meet all the varied needs that comes with such a diverse group of children? And if those of us who march by a unique beat (being all of us :) ) don't start letting our light shine, how will others learn to appreciate our amazing gifts? Consider for a minute all the diverse animals God has created. I'm in awe at the variety of the fish, let alone everything else. He carved out a special place and purpose for all of them. What a boring place this world would be without all of it! And what a boring and stagnant place church becomes when we choose to hide or disown who we really are in favor of some some fake-ish social stereotype that we think makes us appear "better". Like the church needs more "perky people". It's like saying we need more white SUV's in Draper, Utah. BLECK!!

I think you sound like a person who really cares about people. I appreciate that. There are times when I've needed to feel more care and less judgment. I appreciate your ability to see the struggles of the few and champion them.

I'm afraid this is an attitude that I wonder about. Couldn't we say this about any sin? Any deviation from the commitments we make at baptism? That we'll be judged by God and that we'll have to be accountable? But where is the Atonement in this sentiment? Where is the hope or faith that God, in His power and wisdom, can turn any life experience to that person's good? I'm thinking of a parabel from the NT. The parabel of the laborers in Matt 20 where the laborers are called to work in the field but some come at different times, but who receive the same wages at the end. For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. Let me post it..... MATT 20 1-16 2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. 5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? 7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive. 8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. 9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. 10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. 11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, 12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. 13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? 14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? 16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. If I'm not mistaken, these scriptures are trying to teach that it doesn't matter how late in the day, those who come to Christ and serve will receive the same wages as those who were committed from the beginning. While I do agree that teaching priesthood responsibility is important, I think we have to keep our perspective. There is always hope. Always opportunities to course correct our lives and fulfill the obligations associated with our covenants. We talk like missions are the only way to meet the obligation to share the gospel. This is so limited! What happened to "every member a missionary"? There are so very many ways the Lord uses to gather His people!! Including the ways he gathers his prospective missionaries. Teaching people that they have somehow missed the window of mercy and that there will be some doomsday reckoning at the last day feels to me like a denial of the atonement. If people don't repent, there will be a righteous judgment. For those who repent, there is no stain....no need to fear. And isn't this our message to every living soul? That there is always hope for restitution? That we all can come back Jesus and that he'll make it all right again even if it is the eleventh hour.

I have friends who are professional organizers. They come into your home and help you purge all the stuff you don't need and they help you simplify what you do with the stuff you do need. They tell you where you need shelves or cubby's or boxes. It's pretty amazing. It's like when you feel how peaceful it makes your home and the insides of your brain, you never want to back to way you did things before! I can testify of how converting the feeling is. I just cleaned out my garage. Well, I had my son do it. :D And driving my car in yesterday was like coming home to Jesus! Good luck in all your future negotiations with your sweetie. I'm glad you are deciding to talk about this. I'm a fan of quality communication. :)

You mostly likely will get pressure to stay with him. But maybe this is a chance for you to learn the lesson you couldn't earlier. You gave into the pressure to marry him even when you felt you shouldn't. And it seems you've been trying to make it work possibly from the pressure you put on yourself to save things. Here's a chance for you to stand firm in spite of all that. Why not go see a lawyer? Getting a good picture of what your options are can only serve to prepare you and calm your fears. I'm sorry you are finding yourself in this position. These decisions are never easy and I can't know what you should do. But it sounds to me like there is some benevolent force working for your good...nudging you to listen and helping you develop strengths you haven't explored yet.

If it's the brain just letting off steam....doesn't that suggest that they do "mean" something? Maybe what you meant was that it doesn't mean it's revelation. I think we can learn a lot about ourselves from looking at some of our dreams. I had a re-occurring dream about me being in the wilderness with two of my kids. We were playing in the river and a huge grizzly bear, up on his hanches, came towards us. In the dream, I knew that one way or the other, someone was going to die. Either, I could run and grab one of my kids to safety or I'd sacrifice myself and send my kids away. In in the dream I was conflicted with guilt because I'd actually considered saving myself. Funny thing was that the bear never attacked. It just sat there scaring us and we just sat there frozen in indecision. I asked my therapist guru friend about it. She helped me understand it. At the time, I was considering divorce. She said she thought the bear was divorce and that my brain knew that either I'd stay in the marriage and suffer, or that I'd save myself by getting out and my kids would suffer. The dream didn't help me make any decisions and I don't think it was revelation. But it mean that my brain was trying to work things out. It kinda made me feel lots of compassion for myself. (BTW. I chose not to divorce and we're super happy and the bear is now our pet.)

I had a missionary companion who had the most amazing, vivid, diverse dreams. You'd have thought she was on drugs or something. She kept a dream journal so that she could record each individual one. She'd read them out to us. I think she was a highly intelligent creative person. She's gone on to do some really amazing things with her creative talents.

Sweet Kung Fu moves?

Backroads, Your original post was rather validating. Sometimes I've been interested in deeper doctrine. Other times, I've felt a short lived interest in church history. But all too often, I find myself feeling rather .... well, bored. I appreciate whatever study I have under my belt and the history/doctrinally based books or talks I've experienced. But I don't feel the strong spiritual influence I do when I'm simply reading the scriptures or listening to general conference. The older I get, the less interested I am in where Brigham Young bought his knickers or how the earth was created. Maybe that makes me less smart than others. But I'm ok with that. I really find that my heart longs to develop the basic concepts like faith, hope, and charity. Maybe that is just where I am in my journey. It must be what I need cause that's what I'm hungry for. And I like what others have said about spiritual answers. Sometimes I get answers when I pray. Most of the time, I feel the spirit just throughout the day. And often my knowledge comes when the spirit leaves me to struggle...or maybe it comes after. God said he's sent us here to get experience. I have to believe that experience is just as essential to our testimony building. At least that seems to be the way He teaches me.

I hope I'm not sounding like I'm denying the stigma happens. And like you, I'd like to see the general attitude shift a bit. But I don't think the answer is changing the church's position on things. In fact, I think the principles of the priesthood, WofW, Chastity...whatever it is MUST withstand every wind of opinion, emotion, or life experience. And I'm not sure people change their minds about things unless they have experience that sort of forces it. Like you don't know what it's like to have an autistic kid, or SSA, or anxiety disorder,.... or to be stigmatized because you don't follow the mormon schedule.... unless it happens to you or someone close to you. And until we develop that empathy for one another and we learn what our baptismal covenants mean in terms of bearing one another's burdens, I'm afraid we'll continue to do a lot of judging of one another's behaviors. And as long as we judge each other, we'll have problematic stigma to deal with.

I think it's ok to have an "alternate" experience with church discipline. I've heard both stories...that it was spiritual, and that it was really hard and even hurtful. I think we do this a lot in the church. We promise people that we'll always get answers to our prayers or that missions are always wonderful. There is truth here but the "wonderful" doesn't always manifest in the form of an Ensign story. (One story, I know of a mom that couldn't stand to not have God answer her son's prayer. He lost his $5 bill out the car window one day, you see, and had prayed that God would help him find it. Mom drove out later, planted a $5 bill, and then drove her son to find it. And then celebrated how wonderful it was to get help from God.) If I'm ever talking to someone about church discipline, or going on a mission, or making covenants, I don't promise happy stories. I promise what the scriptures promise and I keep it at that. Well, I do more than that. I try to tell the truth as balanced as I can. There are not guarantees that our movements towards Christ won't bring discomfort or unforeseen emotional experiences. In fact, sometimes when we finally get to the place where we make our covenants (or remake them) life gets harder. But that isn't important. What is important is our relationship with the Lord. Everything else is superfluous....and often a distraction. If the disciplinary counsel is handled poorly, it doesn't matter. It's another opportunity to practice the lessons of forgiveness and love. At the end of the day, it's all good. It's all an opportunity that God will, if we are open, turn for our good.

As far as I can tell, it is optional and always has been optional.

Well behaved? Me??? Yeah. I agree. It can feel that way. But who get's "called" to the bishops office? Most of the time isn't it something that we solicit when we have a need? It's our lives. It's our repentance. The bishop is just a tool. Wait...that came out wrong.

Is anybody familiar with this stuff? I just watched the Dr. Oz promo and I almost actually believed him. Either this is something like HCG that is controversial but effective, or it's just another scam. Anyone have any personal experience?? Here's a link: Raspberry Ketone: Fat-Burner in a Bottle | The Dr. Oz Show