Baptisms for the Dead

[Moksha]

I just read a column by Robert Kirby and thought it would be interesting to get some input on it from others.

We don't actually dig them up. That's against the law. Also, it's messy. Instead, the baptisms are performed by proxy in our temples. The goal is to baptize everyone who ever lived.

Toward that end, the LDS Church collects all manner of historical records. Anything that proves someone was once alive is enough to get him or her dunked.

It's a lot of work. Also, there's no way we can possibly know every single person who ever lived. Those we can't find records for will get caught up with the Lord somehow.

We've baptized kings, popes, despots, peasants, natives, plague victims, pirates, lunatics and Elvis. I'm pretty sure we haven't baptized any Neanderthals, but we'll get around to it eventually.

When the Jews found out we were baptizing Jewish victims of the Holocaust, they considered it insulting and demanded that we stop. The church said we would, but apparently we didn't. They got madder and we quit again.

Now the Roman Catholic Church has decided to stop supplying the LDS Church with parish records. No more trying to make Catholics into Mormons, even if it's just pretend.

I can see their point. It's a bit rude to go around baptizing other people's ancestors and expect them not to get upset about it. Even if they don't believe what we're doing has any real religious value, it's the idea.

Mormons wouldn't like it, either. If a group of cannibals decided to stop eating people for real and simply eat their souls instead, I doubt the LDS Church would gladly supply them with our membership records.

Kirby: We'll even get all those Neanderthals baptized - Salt Lake Tribune

[Hemidakota]

First problem with any pre-Adamites, is resurrection principle. LOL For LDS member, if we believe in such, then there is a problem with pre-humans and this principle. If by chance, I mean by chance, there were any people prior to Adam then we need at least a full skeleton to prove there was in order to help them. At this point, there isn't any so we can stop worrying in doing any temple work. I can't understand why LDS members do not understand this simple princple.

Next, only the Celestial Kingdom requires any work to be done. The lower kingdoms do not. So, that leads us down a path of why? Why do we continue the work for those who are murders? Perhaps, we care for them and also it is a commandment to save the dead - no matter of what transpired in mortality. :)

[jadams_4040]

I just read a column by Robert Kirby and thought it would be interesting to get some input on it from others.

Those whom we cannot find records on will be given the opportunity during the millenium.:)

[Ashes]

Wasn't it Paul who rejected baptizing the dead to the Corinthians? Perhaps not rejected, but he spoke on this issue with the pronoun "they" not "we"............

[Jenamarie]

1st Corinthians 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Last time I checked my Scriptures, the dead do rise. (that's what the Ressurection is, after all, right? ) Therefore, they are baptized for the dead BECAUSE the dead will rise, and will have need of that ordinance.

I don't really think the pronounce "they" is a rejection, or seperation of Paul from "those" people.

[Guest Xzain]

Wasn't it Paul who rejected baptizing the dead to the Corinthians? Perhaps not rejected, but he spoke on this issue with the pronoun "they" not "we"............

1 Corinthians 15:29-

29) Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Paul here is using the socratic method to make his listeners ponder on the reality of the ressurection and to put down some false doctrine that had arised. He is, I believe, using a sacred ritual as a proof of the verity of the doctrine of bodily ressurection.

That's what I get from the context and wording of the scripture. Although Paul does use 'they' instead of 'we', in this usage it does not mean Paul is refuting the doctrine of baptism for the dead. Indeed, the context of the chapter, which is about Christ's ressurection, strongly supports his usage of the doctrine in the manner I described above.

[Ashes]

Oh, I see.....thanks

[WANDERER]

If everyone will get a chance in the millenium...then....why?

(I realise it's a very important LDS belief...I'm just not sure I get this part of it).

[jms.mills]

If everyone will get a chance in the millenium...then....why?

(I realise it's a very important LDS belief...I'm just not sure I get this part of it).

In my mind the reason we do baptisms for the dead now, rather than waiting for the millennium is similar to the parable of the Good Samaritan.

In the parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:30-37), those who were supposed to be men of God simply ignored the man who was in need of help. It was a stranger who had no real obligation to help the injured man that stopped and helped.

If Latter-Day Saints simply let the work for the dead wait until the Millennium, we would be no different than the priest or the Levite who ignored a man in need. We have been charged with the sacred task of searching for our ancestors. Therefore, we must labor diligently to complete as much temple work as possible in this life, even if the work is for those who are not members of our immediate family lineage.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is about accepting personal responsibility. We cannot simply "pass the buck" to the next generation. To wait is to be lazy and lukewarm about the teachings of the Gospel; Heavenly Father does not reward those who have a lukewarm attitude towards His commandments.

I hope that answers your question,

James

[WANDERER]

So the belief is that if you perform this ordinance then the person would benefit from it now..?

[Listener]

I've been thinking about this subject, and apart from any understanding you may all have about obedience, baptism for the dead seems to be the logical outcome of loving others. It may be too narrow to love only those near us...or those we have met...or even all those who are alive at the same time we are. Our love extends to all of God's children, at all times, and in all places. If we can't share the good news with those who have passed in person, then proxy baptism seems a sensible alternative.

Thanks.

[Maya]

I agree to the point! And I think it is scarry as the catolic church now is denying their archives from us ... talk about the last times closing! I am afraid the other churches will follow and Satan is laughing and clapping his hands. What a mess it will be when we can not do any work without names... or maybe we have already enough names in storage to do the work in till He comes again! In that case we will be doing many names that are not family with us... extended family and love!

First problem with any pre-Adamites, is resurrection principle. LOL For LDS member, if we believe in such, then there is a problem with pre-humans and this principle. If by chance, I mean by chance, there were any people prior to Adam then we need at least a full skeleton to prove there was in order to help them. At this point, there isn't any so we can stop worrying in doing any temple work. I can't understand why LDS members do not understand this simple princple.

Next, only the Celestial Kingdom requires any work to be done. The lower kingdoms do not. So, that leads us down a path of why? Why do we continue the work for those who are murders? Perhaps, we care for them and also it is a commandment to save the dead - no matter of what transpired in mortality. :)

Pre humans.. if they were not "man" they probably do not need to be babtised... just a tought... Adam was the firs MAN... what ever that is

[Guest Xzain]

So the belief is that if you perform this ordinance then the person would benefit from it now..?

I do believe that is correct. Ordinances are the capstones of godly processes in our lives, and baptism is the capstone of sincere repentance.

I can't find any scriptural reference right now, but I think our belief is that one cannot enter 'Spirit Paradise' (the heavenly state of the soul after death but before the Ressurection and Judgement) until having received baptism, either in the body or by proxy. Therefore, even the most righteous who died without an oppurtunity for baptism have a need of proxy baptism in a timely matter, if they are to receive as much joy as they could have in this time frame.

[Shell72]

I don't understand the baptising of the dead for a few reasons.

Firstly - It is not a "requirement" or a "necessity" - as Jesus told the thief on the Cross with him that he would join him in paradise - the thief was not baptized.

Secondly - It is a sign of obediance. I don't think we can show others obediance - that sort of defeats the purpose?

Thirdly - it is a symbol of your commitment. How can we commit for others? We can not make those decisions for other people, which is the whole point of why God gave us Free Will.

I just dont' understand it at all...

[Iggy]

I don't understand the baptising of the dead for a few reasons.

Firstly - It is not a "requirement" or a "necessity" - as Jesus told the thief on the Cross with him that he would join him in paradise - the thief was not baptized.

Secondly - It is a sign of obediance. I don't think we can show others obediance - that sort of defeats the purpose?

Thirdly - it is a symbol of your commitment. How can we commit for others? We can not make those decisions for other people, which is the whole point of why God gave us Free Will.

I just dont' understand it at all...

How long have you been a member of the LDS Church?

[Tough Grits]

I don't understand the baptising of the dead for a few reasons.

Firstly - It is not a "requirement" or a "necessity" - as Jesus told the thief on the Cross with him that he would join him in paradise - the thief was not baptized.

Secondly - It is a sign of obedience. I don't think we can show others obedience - that sort of defeats the purpose?

Thirdly - it is a symbol of your commitment. How can we commit for others? We can not make those decisions for other people, which is the whole point of why God gave us Free Will.

I just don't' understand it at all...

1. Baptism is a requirement and a necessity, or the Savior (being perfect and God's only begotten) would not have had need to be baptized in the river Jordan by John the Baptist.

2. Yes, it is a sign of obedience. But what about all those who died never even knowing that the gospel existed? It would not be fair for them to be denied the opportunity to dwell in Heavenly Father's kingdom, just because they were born in a remote rain forest. So, they cannot obey a commandment that they were never informed of.

But how and when will they be informed, if they died before hearing the gospel?

In the Spirit World. They will be given the opportunity to accept or reject the gospel in the Spirit World.

3. Now, let's say that a person (who never had the opportunity on earth to know of the gospel) accepts the gospel while in the Spirit World. If their work was not done for them on earth by proxy, then how would they be able to enter in by the narrow gate, that even Christ had to enter by?

My Cuban grandfather died. He never knew the gospel. He is in the Spirit World right now. I do not have the ability to know whether he has accepted or rejected the gospel. So, I will have my husband perform a baptism by proxy for my grandfather. But the choice is still my grandfather's to make.

My grandfather's choice is not being robbed by having my husband do a baptism by proxy. My grandfather will still have to choose for himself. But in case he DOES choose to accept the gospel, somebody will have had to prepare the way for him.

I hope this makes sense. I can find some quotes from General Authorities if you would like. They explain things with much more wisdom, scriptural reference, and eloquence.

[Tough Grits]

LDS.org > Gospel Library > Gospel Topics

Baptism

Baptism by immersion in water by one having authority is the first saving ordinance of the gospel and is necessary for an individual to become a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and to receive eternal salvation. All who seek eternal life must follow the example of the Savior by being baptized and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Baptism in the Lord's Way

The Savior revealed the true method of baptism to the Prophet Joseph Smith, making clear that the ordinance must be performed by one having priesthood authority and that it must be done by immersion:

"The person who is called of God and has authority from Jesus Christ to baptize, shall go down into the water with the person who has presented himself or herself for baptism, and shall say, calling him or her by name: Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.

"Then shall he immerse him or her in the water, and come forth again out of the water" (D&C 20:73–74).

Immersion is symbolic of the death of a person's sinful life and the rebirth into a spiritual life, dedicated to the service of God and His children. It is also symbolic of death and resurrection. (See Romans 6:3–6.)

The Baptismal Covenant

Those who are baptized enter into a covenant with God to take upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ, keep His commandments, and serve Him to the end (see Mosiah 18:8–10; D&C 20:37). Church members renew this covenant each time they partake of the sacrament (see D&C 20:77, 79).

Those who keep the covenants they made at baptism are blessed by the Lord for their faithfulness. Some of the blessings include the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, the remission of sins, and the privilege of being spiritually reborn. If they continue faithfully, they are promised eternal life (see 2 Nephi 31:19–20).

Little Children and Baptism

From latter-day revelation, we know that little children are redeemed through the mercy of Jesus Christ. The Lord said, "They cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me" (see D&C 29:46–47). They are not to be baptized until they reach the age of accountability, which the Lord has revealed to be eight years of age (see D&C 68:27; Joseph Smith Translation, Genesis 17:11). Anyone who claims that little children need baptism "denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption" (Moroni 8:20; see also verses 8–19, 21–24).

See also Faith; Holy Ghost; Obedience; Priesthood; Repentance; Sacrament

—See True to the Faith (2004), 21–26

[Tough Grits]

LDS.org > Gospel Library > Gospel Topics

Baptisms for the Dead

Jesus Christ taught that baptism is essential to the salvation of all who have lived on earth (see John 3:5). Many people, however, have died without being baptized. Others were baptized without proper authority. Because God is merciful, He has prepared a way for all people to receive the blessings of baptism. By performing proxy baptisms in behalf of those who have died, Church members offer these blessings to deceased ancestors. Individuals can then choose to accept or reject what has been done in their behalf.

Jesus Christ said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5). Even Jesus Christ Himself was baptized (see Matthew 3:13–17).

Many people have lived on the earth who never heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ and who were not baptized. Others lived without fully understanding the importance of the ordinance of baptism. Still others were baptized, but without proper authority.

Because He is a loving God, the Lord does not damn those people who, through no fault of their own, never had the opportunity for baptism. He has therefore authorized baptisms to be performed by proxy for them. A living person, often a descendant who has become a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is baptized in behalf of a deceased person. This work is done by Church members in temples throughout the world.

Some people have misunderstood that when baptisms for the dead are performed, deceased persons are baptized into the Church against their will. This is not the case. Each individual has agency, or the right to choose. The validity of a baptism for the dead depends on the deceased person accepting it and choosing to accept and follow the Savior while residing in the spirit world. The names of deceased persons are not added to the membership records of the Church.

The New Testament indicates that baptisms for the dead were done during the time of the Apostle Paul (see 1 Corinthians 15:29). This ordinance was restored with the establishment of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

[Justice]

I think it helps to understand exactly what Christ meant when He said "paradise." If you think paradise is heaven (or the Celestial Kingdom) I can see where this might confuse you.

Paradise and Spirit Prison are the 2 places where spirits await judgment and resurrection. The only distinction between the 2 being that those in paradise believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. This is partly responsible for modern Christianity's belief that all you have to do is "believe" in Christ to be saved. Well, if you mean saved into paradise, then yes. But, Christ taught you had to be obedient to His laws in order to truly believe. This is why we will be judged according to our works, and not just our beliefs.

Heaven, as meaning the Celestial Kingdom for those who lived on this earth, will not exist until after the resurrection. So, the thief could not be in heaven with Jesus the next day, because the thief will not be resurrected before Christ was.

[Tough Grits]

Good points, Justice.

[Listener]

Quote from Tough Grits:

Some people have misunderstood that when baptisms for the dead are performed, deceased persons are baptized into the Church against their will. This is not the case. Each individual has agency, or the right to choose. The validity of a baptism for the dead depends on the deceased person accepting it and choosing to accept and follow the Savior while residing in the spirit world. The names of deceased persons are not added to the membership records of the Church.

Exactly so, Tough One. This is why the Catholic position on denying access to records makes no sense. We are all members of one body; Christ is the Lord of us all; I would be happy for an LDSer to pray for me; so why prevent anyone from doing something positive out of love?

[Ashes]

Where in the BoM can I find that it supports baptizing the dead?

[Jenamarie]

Greeting HizWife. Indeed, there is no mention of Baptism for the Dead in the Book of Mormon, however, that does not mean it was not a practice among the Nephites. In the New Testament, the Sacrament (or Communion, or Lord's Supper) is mentioned only *once* after the Last Supper. Would any Christian take that to mean that it was an unimportant practice among the ancient Church?

[Tough Grits]

Ashes,

Hello!

Here are the scriptural references listed for Baptisms for the Dead:

Malachi 4:5–6; John 5:25; 1 Peter 4:6; 3 Nephi 25:5–6; D&C 124:93; D&C 128:17–18

Also, just in case you are interested, here are some Church magazine articles that might interest you and/or others.

• "The Redemption of the Dead" Boyd K. Packer, Ensign, Nov. 1975, 97–99

  We must not shirk our responsibility to provide gospel ordinances to both the living and the dead.

• "The Spirit of Elijah" Russell M. Nelson, Ensign, Nov. 1994, 84–87

  Service in the temple together is a sublime activity for a family. It provides its own sustaining motivation and verification of the truth of this unique work.

• "The Redemption of the Dead and the Testimony of Jesus" D. Todd Christofferson, Liahona, Jan. 2001, 10–13; or Ensign, Nov. 2000, 9–12

  By identifying our ancestors and performing for them the saving ordinances they could not themselves perform, we are testifying of the infinite reach of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

• "The Savior's Visit to the Spirit World" Spencer J. Condie, Liahona, July 2003, 26–30; or Ensign, July 2003, 32–36

  What Jesus did during the hours between His death and Resurrection provides the doctrinal foundation for building temples.

• "Comparing LDS Beliefs with First-Century Christianity" Daniel C. Peterson and Stephen D. Ricks, Ensign, Mar. 1988, 7–11

  Is it true that because Latter-day Saints practice baptism for the dead, they are not Christian?

• "I Have a Question" Robert L. Millet, Ensign, Aug. 1987, 19–21

  Was baptism for the dead a non-Christian practice in New Testament times, or was it a practice of the Church of Jesus Christ, as it is today?

• "Proxy Baptism" John A. Tvedtnes, Ensign, Feb. 1977, 86

  In his epistle to the Corinthians, Paul cited the early Christian practice of proxy baptism for the dead as evidence of a future resurrection and judgment.

Hope that helps!

~TG

[Jenamarie]

Ashes,

Hello!

Here are the scriptural references listed for Baptisms for the Dead:

Malachi 4:5–6; John 5:25; 1 Peter 4:6; 3 Nephi 25:5–6; D&C 124:93; D&C 128:17–18

Also, just in case you are interested, here are some Church magazine articles that might interest you and/or others.

• "The Redemption of the Dead" Boyd K. Packer, Ensign, Nov. 1975, 97–99

  We must not shirk our responsibility to provide gospel ordinances to both the living and the dead.

• "The Spirit of Elijah" Russell M. Nelson, Ensign, Nov. 1994, 84–87

  Service in the temple together is a sublime activity for a family. It provides its own sustaining motivation and verification of the truth of this unique work.

• "The Redemption of the Dead and the Testimony of Jesus" D. Todd Christofferson, Liahona, Jan. 2001, 10–13; or Ensign, Nov. 2000, 9–12

  By identifying our ancestors and performing for them the saving ordinances they could not themselves perform, we are testifying of the infinite reach of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

• "The Savior's Visit to the Spirit World" Spencer J. Condie, Liahona, July 2003, 26–30; or Ensign, July 2003, 32–36

  What Jesus did during the hours between His death and Resurrection provides the doctrinal foundation for building temples.

• "Comparing LDS Beliefs with First-Century Christianity" Daniel C. Peterson and Stephen D. Ricks, Ensign, Mar. 1988, 7–11

  Is it true that because Latter-day Saints practice baptism for the dead, they are not Christian?

• "I Have a Question" Robert L. Millet, Ensign, Aug. 1987, 19–21

  Was baptism for the dead a non-Christian practice in New Testament times, or was it a practice of the Church of Jesus Christ, as it is today?

• "Proxy Baptism" John A. Tvedtnes, Ensign, Feb. 1977, 86

  In his epistle to the Corinthians, Paul cited the early Christian practice of proxy baptism for the dead as evidence of a future resurrection and judgment.

Hope that helps!

~TG

Your post was much more helpful than mine. Those are some awesome articles. (I've read them in the past. Obviously I did not read them all in the few seconds since you posted them )