Child Abuse? - Are some supporting abuse?

[Traveler]

One of the reasons the children were removed from the compound ranch in Texas was because of the accusation that the children were being taught (given propaganda) to prepare them for underage marriage and sexual contact). This was considered by the Child Protective Services to be acts of child abuse. I do not want to discuss if the FLDS church is guilty of child abuse – I want to look specifically at others.

What I am wondering is this: If encouragement of underage sexual contact is child abuse – why has there been no effort or action against educational and entertainment materials (example – R rated moves) and those that distribute such materials where minor children have access and the parents that allow and encourage their minor children to participate in such entertainment and education?

The Traveler

[RachelleDrew]

In my mind there is a big difference between parents telling their young teenage daughters that they must marry and bed a 50 year old man in order to reach the Celestial kingdom, and a couple of 14 year olds sneaking into a theater to see the latest R-rated movie.

I agree with your point, I just fail to see how it has anything to do with the YFZ ranch and their reported activities. Could you maybe rephrase your question?

[Traveler]

In my mind there is a big difference between parents telling their young teenage daughters that they must marry and bed a 50 year old man in order to reach the Celestial kingdom, and a couple of 14 year olds sneaking into a theater to see the latest R-rated movie.

I agree with your point, I just fail to see how it has anything to do with the YFZ ranch and their reported activities. Could you maybe rephrase your question?

Let me ask another question - In which society FLDS or non-FLDS - has the highest minor sexuality at the youngest age and most underage pregnancies?

Are our Texas friends protecting children or straining at a gnat and swallowing camel? When it comes to sexual abuse of children.

The Traveler

[KosherXMorg]

"...telling their young teenage daughters that they must marry and bed a 50 year old man.."

I guess the old adage is true... "You repeat a lie enough times it eventually becomes the truth."

[KosherXMorg]

In my mind there is a big difference between parents telling their young teenage daughters that they must marry and bed a 50 year old man in order to reach the Celestial kingdom, and a couple of 14 year olds sneaking into a theater to see the latest R-rated movie.

I agree with your point, I just fail to see how it has anything to do with the YFZ ranch and their reported activities. Could you maybe rephrase your question?

Rachelle-

Do you believe Joseph Smith Jr. son of Joseph and Lucy Mack Smith was a prophet of YHWH (the "L-rd" for those in Rio Linda) until the day he died?

[Jenamarie]

The State of Texas had no right to remove those children simply on the basis of what they were being taught, unless they were being taught to kill people and/or themselves. It's a very fine line the government of Texas was walking, trying to make a case based on a group of people's BELIEFS and morals being equal to abuse. I personally shudder at the thought of the law trying to interfer with what is taught in my home, no matter how abhorrant other people might find it. The government has no right to my govern my thoughts or beliefs, or anyone else's.

[KosherXMorg]

The State of Texas had no right to remove those children simply on the basis of what they were being taught, unless they were being taught to kill people and/or themselves. It's a very fine line the government of Texas was walking, trying to make a case based on a group of people's BELIEFS and morals being equal to abuse. I personally shudder at the thought of the law trying to interfer with what is taught in my home, no matter how abhorrant other people might find it. The government has no right to my govern my thoughts or beliefs, or anyone else's.

There was after all an extermination order, by the government of Mo., against our people, for our theology. Do we really want to be the ones supporting such actions now?

[ruthiechan]

I took a Child Abuse course in college. We discussed something similar regarding the groups of homosexual pedophiles who advocate sex with minor boys. However, as long as they do not act on those beliefs then they are breaking no laws, so the group is allowed to stand.

If these girls were being taught and prepared to get married to or have sex with much older men then while I would object on moral principles I would not be able to lawfully object unless they were being wed or bedded as minors. If they were "spiritually" married (as in not lawfully) and waited until the girls were of legal age to engage in sexual relations, then they would have broken no laws and this raid would not have occurred.

[Moksha]

"...telling their young teenage daughters that they must marry and bed a 50 year old man.."

I guess the old adage is true... "You repeat a lie enough times it eventually becomes the truth."

She was taking poetic license with the 50 year old bit. These older men come in a variety of ages.

However, to try to deny that these young girls are being groomed to be given to some older polygamist husband, not of their choosing, will only make one's nose grow.

[Fiannan]

"...telling their young teenage daughters that they must marry and bed a 50 year old man.."

I guess the old adage is true... "You repeat a lie enough times it eventually becomes the truth."

Actually Goebbles (who based his societal indoctrination plan on the book "Propaganda" .. written by Edward Bernays) said that to win a point you just repeat it over and over again with conviction (doesn't matter if it is true or not) and people will accept it.

[Fiannan]

Okay everyone -- Mohammed married a young woman who was 9 years old (waited until puperty to consumate the marriage so probably waited until around 13) and he was in his late 40s or early 50s at the time. Isaac was 40 when he sought to marry Rebecca who was 10 years old.

Question: Was Isaac and Mohammed child molesters? And beware of the thing about "that was then, this is now" because if we are talking morality then that must be based on God's teachings and God doesn't change the basic concepts.

[ampat777]

Okay everyone -- Mohammed married a young woman who was 9 years old (waited until puperty to consumate the marriage so probably waited until around 13) and he was in his late 40s or early 50s at the time. Isaac was 40 when he sought to marry Rebecca who was 10 years old.

Question: Was Isaac and Mohammed child molesters? And beware of the thing about "that was then, this is now" because if we are talking morality then that must be based on God's teachings and God doesn't change the basic concepts.

Let´s say they would be in jail today...

[RachelleDrew]

"...telling their young teenage daughters that they must marry and bed a 50 year old man.."

I guess the old adage is true... "You repeat a lie enough times it eventually becomes the truth."

Warren Jeffs is sitting in prison for forcing a girl to do so.

He has admitted to it, how am I propagating lies again?

[RachelleDrew]

Okay everyone -- Mohammed married a young woman who was 9 years old (waited until puperty to consumate the marriage so probably waited until around 13) and he was in his late 40s or early 50s at the time. Isaac was 40 when he sought to marry Rebecca who was 10 years old.

Question: Was Isaac and Mohammed child molesters? And beware of the thing about "that was then, this is now" because if we are talking morality then that must be based on God's teachings and God doesn't change the basic concepts.

Oh please. The bible teaches us to obey the law. If the law tells us that we shouldn't marry someone under a certain age, then we shouldn't do it. This isn't brain surgery.

You know, for someone who is so adamant that our judicial system isn't harsh enough on criminals, you sure seem to support the rights of sex offenders to break the law.

On another note, if Isaac came to me to ask for my ten year old's hand in marriage I would kick him in the groin. Nice to know you would offer yours up though.

[WANDERER]

Statistical research has revealed grave consequences of early motherhood for the health of girls. The most harmless diseases of young mums are serious erosion, ovarian dysfunction, and accompanying system diseases, to name a few. Their infants also have poor health manifested as low birth weight, compromised immunity, and propensity for allergic reactions. The babies are bottle–fed from the very first days of their life as teenage mothers tend to have lactation problems.

Maternal mortality among teenagers is 5 to 8 times higher than among adults. One in every ten women who dies when in labour is under 20. The younger the lying-in woman, the higher the risk of maternal mortality.

Source: Pravda

Google child bride and fistula - I don't recommend it.

[Elphaba]

There was after all an extermination order, by the government of Mo., against our people, for our theology. Do we really want to be the ones supporting such actions now?

The extermination order, and the majority of attacks against the Mormons, had nothing to do with their theology. Rather, their actions often caused others to make fun of their theology, and to use it against them when the situations escalated to horrorible bloodshed, on both sides.

For example, Sidney Rigdon was the first to talk of extermination in a fourth of July tirade. In fact, after Joseph's death, Brigham was able to use Sidney's fourth of July "extermination speech" against him when vying for the presidency, because, at the time, everyone knew Sidney's flammable speech was the precursor to much of the dangers and ultimate bloodshed the Saints had experienced.

This had nothing to do with theology. It had to do with a religious group that kept itself isolated from outsiders, and insisted, often arrogantly to the settlers that already lived on the land, that God had given them these lands.

Certainly the Mormons experienced the worst of the horrors, including Joseph's and Hyrum's murders. In fact, they were lucky, IMO. Women forced to cross the frozen Mississippi River in the dead of winter with people dying all around them, including their children, is a horror I cannot imagine. And THAT is a great manifestation of their commitment to God and their religion.

But, in some situations, the Mormons gave as good as they got, which escalated others. You are taking a very complicated historical situation and reducing it to a whitewashed version of "us" against "them."

And to compare what is happening today with the FLDS children, many of whom ARE being abused, which IS illegal, to the horrors the early members of the Church experienced, is an insult to their memory.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

I took a Child Abuse course in college. We discussed something similar regarding the groups of homosexual pedophiles who advocate sex with minor boys. However, as long as they do not act on those beliefs then they are breaking no laws, so the group is allowed to stand.

So, was it just the homosexuals that advocate sex with minor boys? Did your instructor just forget to tell you about the heterosexual pedophiles as well?

Or, perhaps, he/she told you the "homosexual pedophiles advocating sex with minors" is a myth, perpetuated by bigots? In fact, heterosexual pedophiles far outnumber homosexual pedophiles. Perhaps some critical thinking is in order?

Elphaba

[WillowTheWhisp]

I don't know what the situation is in the USA but here in the UK contraceptive advice and devices are available to girls and boys under the age of 16 and parents are not informed. It is all done 'confidentially' and parents do not even have the right to know! If you ask me this whole country is a darned site worse than the FLDS for advocating under age sex, at least the FLDS do not promote promiscuity.

If they were "spiritually" married (as in not lawfully) and waited until the girls were of legal age to engage in sexual relations, then they would have broken no laws and this raid would not have occurred.

Are you really absolutely certain and positive about that? After all the raid was as a result of an unproven accusation in an untraced phone call, wasn't it? Why were innocent children removed from their parents?

[MarginOfError]

Keep in mind that the courts in Texas only had a problem with the State taking custody of the unmarried and unabused girls. The court didn't care that the girls who had been forced to marry and bear children were taken into custody. In order to take the younger girls, the State would have to show imminent danger, but a belief system is not sufficient evidence. The State would have needed proposed wedding dates, or invitations, or announcements of some sort linking an underage girl to a wedding in order to take action.

To suggest that we could nail someone for child abuse for a system of beliefs gets really shaky when you think about it. What about parents who believe that childhood immunization is wrong and refuse to immunize their child? Do you can those parents for abuse/neglect? Or what about vegan parents who refuse to give their child cow's milk? In these cases the belief forced on the child by the parents may put the child at risk but that doesn't mean the child in in imminent danger.

As for giving out contraceptives to minors: that may encourage underage sexual activity, but it is assumed that such activity is consensual, and not abusive. Furthermore, giving out contraception has the potential to reduce teen pregnancy and the ocurrence of STD's, which is can be argued to be protecting youth. I realize that there is a huge can of worms involved in this issue, but that'd probably be best moved to another thread.

[Fiannan]

Oh please. The bible teaches us to obey the law.

Please show where and do remember what Jesus and most of the prophets were killed for doing.

[Fiannan]

So, was it just the homosexuals that advocate sex with minor boys? Did your instructor just forget to tell you about the heterosexual pedophiles as well?

Or, perhaps, he/she told you the "homosexual pedophiles advocating sex with minors" is a myth, perpetuated by bigots? In fact, heterosexual pedophiles far outnumber homosexual pedophiles. Perhaps some critical thinking is in order?

Elphaba

NAMBLA comes to mind.

[Elphaba]

Question: Was Isaac and Mohammed child molesters? And beware of the thing about "that was then, this is now" because if we are talking morality then that must be based on God's teachings and God doesn't change the basic concepts.

Yes. If they had intercourse with children, then yes, they were child molesters. That is how we define child molesters. Adults who have intercourse, or other sexual relations, with children. And 13-year-old girls are children.

Does it matter that the culture condoned it? No it does not. Did the little girls cry when the men forced them to have intercourse with him? Yes, they did. Were their cries ignored? Yes they were. That is child molestation.

You are so wont to write posts about girls and the cultures that condoned their being raped early in their lives, it is creepy. Yes, I know, these cultures did not see it as rape. I don’t care.

Let’s look at it another way.

Do you consider clitoral castration child abuse? The cultures that insist on this will be using rocks, glass or whatever sharp instruments they can find, on little six-year-old girls tomorrow.

Yet, this is an acient Muslim and Christian custom in Africa that is so ingrained, there are stories of parents trying to sneak their daughters away so she does not have to suffer this horror, only for the WOMEN of the tribes to steal her back, and then slice her body in the most excruciating manner imaginable.

A six-year-old's body does not hurt more today than it did two thousand years ago.

So, the question goes back to you? Do you consider what these little girls experienced 2000 years ago to be child abuse? And those who are sliced open today? Is that child abuse?

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

NAMBLA comes to mind.

Bigotry comes to mind.

Homosexuals are no more pedophiles than heterosexuals are. You do the math.

Elphaba

[Fiannan]

Statistical research has revealed grave consequences of early motherhood for the health of girls. The most harmless diseases of young mums are serious erosion, ovarian dysfunction, and accompanying system diseases, to name a few. Their infants also have poor health manifested as low birth weight, compromised immunity, and propensity for allergic reactions. The babies are bottle–fed from the very first days of their life as teenage mothers tend to have lactation problems.

Maternal mortality among teenagers is 5 to 8 times higher than among adults. One in every ten women who dies when in labour is under 20. The younger the lying-in woman, the higher the risk of maternal mortality.

Source: Pravda

Google child bride and fistula - I don't recommend it.

Wonder what the variables that go beyond age are? Socio/economic status has a lot to do with health. When I was in high school when a SallyRally girl got pregnant she just aborted the kid. When one of the girls who smoked behind the cafe across the street got pregnant she had the baby. The former group tended to come from comfortable middle class homes while the latter came from lower income working class homes.

Maybe the important variable when doing these studies is not age after all.

Also, I am not a big fan of teens getting pregnant but God did design females to be at their reproductive prime at 18.

[Fiannan]

Yes. If they had intercourse with children, then yes, they were child molesters. That is how we define child molesters. Adults who have intercourse, or other sexual relations, with children. And 13-year-old girls are children.

Does it matter that the culture condoned it? No it does not. Did the little girls cry when the men forced them to have intercourse with him? Yes, they did. Were their cries ignored? Yes they were. That is child molestation.

You are so wont to write posts about girls and the cultures that condoned their being raped early in their lives, it is creepy. Yes, I know, these cultures did not see it as rape. I don’t care.

Let’s look at it another way.

Do you consider clitoral castration child abuse? The cultures that insist on this will be using rocks, glass or whatever sharp instruments they can find, on little six-year-old girls tomorrow.

Yet, this is an acient Muslim and Christian custom in Africa that is so ingrained, there are stories of parents trying to sneak their daughters away so she does not have to suffer this horror, only for the WOMEN of the tribes to steal her back, and then slice her body in the most excruciating manner imaginable.

A six-year-old's body does not hurt more today than it did two thousand years ago.

So, the question goes back to you? Do you consider what these little girls experienced 2000 years ago to be child abuse? And those who are sliced open today? Is that child abuse?

Elphaba

Mary, the mother of Jesus, was 14 when she conceived Jesus. So I guess not only was God an absentee father but also something far more serious?

Cutting off a girl"s clitoris is not a Christian or a Muslim practice. It is an animistic tradition that has been incorporated into these religions in Africa as much as voodo and Catholicism can go together in Haiti. And one cannot connect that to marriage practices.

Isaac and Mohammed were not pedophiles as the women they married were at reproductive development when they finally did consumate the marriages.

Also, just wondering what you think of this news story. Do you believe the guy should go to jail or do you believe the girl should go to jail?

Man Sentenced To Prison After Girl's MySpace Page Lies About Age - News Story - WFTV Orlando